Switch from SR22 to 172 for IFR Training?

Should a Cirrus SR22 Owner switch to a 172 for IFR Training and Checkride?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • No

    Votes: 15 93.8%
  • Total voters
    16
VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
884
Display Name
Display name:
VWGhiaBob
"Do your IFR training in the plane you plan to fly," they all say.
But please hear me out...
Getting ready to start IFR in my SR22. I'm almost ready for written and looking to start flying soon.
Yesterday, I met a guy my age (also a CTO for a major corp) who's about to take his IFR check ride in his totally steam Cherokee 140. He also owns a glass Bonanza.
He and his instructor (who's also a Cirrus instructor) are adamant that flying a simple, slow plane is the way to go through the check ride, as long as the pilot knows there's a training curve AFTER the check ride.
Reasons this appeals to me:
* Flying a complex Cirrus even VFR requires more attention than simpler planes
* Everything happens faster in a Cirrus
* Hard to hold altitude in a Cirrus without AP
* I don't care how many hours it takes; the idea of mastering IFR in an "easy" plane and then migrating appeals to me
* Check ride is easier; don't have 50 ways to do everything...so many complex options
Yes. I'm seriously considering this. But as with all things flying, the decision isn't easy.
Would be super interested in opposing and supporting views!
And if there's interest, I may chronicle my journey on this site: How does a professional with a super-demanding job get an IFR?
 
His instructor is an idiot. A Cirrus can be flown at the same speeds as a Skyhawk. Only difference is a Skyhawk can't go any faster. If I ever get to train for IFR in my Mooney I'll be doing approaches at 90 knots, same as a Skyhawk.
 
When did Cirrus manufacture a Complex aircraft? Sure, the Sr-22 is High performance, but it's not Complex.

and the speed isn't all that troublesome if you move the throttle appropriately.

Calling 6PC -- Hard to maintain altitude without Auto Pilot? Really?
 
Weren't you the guy who insisted the glass wasn't more complex?

There is a school of thought that says it's easier to transition from steam to glass than vice-versa. Having trained IFR in both (but steam first), I can see the argument. But if you OWN the glass, it seems like gambling on a possible future long transition back to steam would be a good bet.

It's pretty easy to let hand flying skills atrophy with an autopilot. Unless you do something beyond the usual Part 91, you may never be evaluated on hand flying again, once past the checkride. But you may have to do it for real if something breaks. And it DOES happen. In my 6 months as an instrument pilot, I've already had multiple AP glitches and a blown magnetometer in IMC that took out the HSI and disrupted the GPS. And it's worrisome that you say it's hard to hold altitude in your airplane without the AP. Hopefully that's due to poor trim, and will get ironed out in training. If not, I'd think twice about flying that plane in IMC if I were you. Poor altitude control kills.
 
Train in the aircraft your going to be flying. That way there are no surprises ,when you do fly actual.
 
Man, life is tough when you own a SR22!

The easiest plane to get your IFR in is the one you own, if you own a plane. You will know that panel and GPS like the back of your hand (or maybe even the front of your hand :)). Anyway, stick with the plane you own.

Thats not to say that a steam gauge Cessna with two VOR's, one with a GS wouldn't be easier. It would be, but you don't own that one!

Just the way life is....
 
Last edited:
On the "train in your own plane" front. I asked the DPE that will do my IFR checkride if he had any issues with doing it in an experimental aircraft. He said, "depends on the plane"

Took him over to my hangar and showed him Candy. He said "Call me when you're ready" :)
 
If you can't hold heading and altitude without an autopilot either the airplane or the nut flying it is broken.
 
IR in a Cirrus is easy. Just slow down ahead of time and don't let the plane get ahead of you.
 
rolivi said:
When did Cirrus manufacture a Complex aircraft? Sure, the Sr-22 is High performance, but it's not Complex.

and the speed isn't all that troublesome if you move the throttle appropriately.

Calling 6PC -- Hard to maintain altitude without Auto Pilot? Really?
Click to expand...
This is completely untrue. it is not hard. It is impossible. No one should ever under any circumstances attempt to fly without the autopilot.
 
I bought my first Cirrus 1 week after getting my private. I started instrument training in it the day I picked it up. Without a doubt I would do it in your Cirrus.
 
REALLY bad idea in my opinion. 1) Why waste that extra money on a rental where you own the SR22. 2) Unless you are just getting the ticket to hang on your wall and not actually get wet, the training time in your plane and on your systems will be invaluable when it comes to flying in actual.

Now with that, make sure you have a CFII that can train you on the systems you have. I had a buddy that had a full glass cockpit automated to the hilt...CFII however was total old school and only taught by the book VOR nav and like he only had steam gauges. DPE failed him on his first departure procedure because he did not know the systems in the plane and how to pull up the DP in the GPS when he got fubared. He got a new CFII for the retest.

Sure, you can do it easy by limiting what you have available to you in another plane...or you can do it right and keep yourself alive.
 
And give up all that safety you crow here about continuously? How can it even be considered? Oh no!
 
VWGhiaBob said:
* Everything happens faster in a Cirrus
* Hard to hold altitude in a Cirrus without AP

* Check ride is easier; don't have 50 ways to do everything
Click to expand...

I agree on these three points, especially if it is an old 172 without gps.

Getting the trim just so is a pain, especially compared to an old 172 with manual trim.

Equipment for fewer kinds of approaches gives the examiner less to test.
 
I have a difficult time even believing anyone would consider this course. Train in your Cirrus.
 
Why is the Cirrus trim so difficult? Is it an issue on all Cirri or something with yours that you could have fixed before doing IR in it?
 
Lots of comments here about my statement that it's hard to hold altitude in a Cirrus. Compared to a 172 or PA 28 or PA 30 or 182, it's SUPER hard, from someone who has flown 'em all. The yoke is hypersensitive, and even a slight turbulence bump can change the attitude quickly...and there goes 200 feet. This is a well-documented "challenge" known by all Cirrus pilots.

As an SR22 owner, when I get back into a 172 or the like, I think...wow...control and altitude holding are so darn easy. No wonder the 172 is the trainer of choice.

Regarding complexity. While a Cirrus is complex, it's not Complex (by FAA standards...no retract). The complexities of flying a Cirrus when it's done right far exceed those of trainers like the 172. Cirrus Aircraft(and some very unfortunate pilots) learned the hard way when the initial fatality rate was the worst in the industry. Now it's among the best...because the complexity is addressed through standardized transition training. Cirrus complex? Yes! Complex? No.
 
Maintaining altitude takes practice and discipline and can be practiced now, before you even start your training.

My concern is that you get your IR in a 172 and transition back to your Cirrus. Are you going to get another 20 hours of instrument flight instruction to perfect your instrument skills in the Cirrus, or are you going to rely on autopilot?

If it's the former, why not spend that time doing all your training in your plane? If the latter, how do you think things will turn out when the A/P fails?
 
Sounds like hand flying a Cirrus might give the pilot a complex :rolleyes:

If one can't even hold a level altitude in the thing how does one plan to fly a stable approach? Depend on the autopilot/GPS in all circumstances? Pull the red handle if that system fails in IMC?
 
Why would you want your training to be easy? Did you get to where you are professionally by going to the easiest schools?


To me the biggest part of IFR is seeing where you are on a 3D map IN YOUR HEAD.

The ideal IFR trainer for me is a matching airplane and sim, both have a standard six pax, dual nav comms, ether no GPS or one where you can't use the moving map or see the "turn to XXX in 3, 2, 1". And no AP or FD, no GPS foreflight, before you earn your IFR ticket you should be situationally aware without being spoon fed.

As for a 110kt cruise plane or a 150kt cruise plane, CS vs non CS prop, whatever not instrument related and not anything which really changes stuff enough to make a difference.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Lots of comments here about my statement that it's hard to hold altitude in a Cirrus. Compared to a 172 or PA 28 or PA 30 or 182, it's SUPER hard, from someone who has flown 'em all. The yoke is hypersensitive, and even a slight turbulence bump can change the attitude quickly...and there goes 200 feet. This is a well-documented "challenge" known by all Cirrus pilots.
Click to expand...

It's not super hard. I find the 22 to be quite stable when properly trimmed. It's just requires a proper scan, which takes practice. Most Cirrus pilots don't hand fly much, so they don't get the practice. That's well-documented.

VWGhiaBob said:
Regarding complexity. While a Cirrus is complex, it's not Complex (by FAA standards...no retract). The complexities of flying a Cirrus when it's done right far exceed those of trainers like the 172. Cirrus Aircraft(and some very unfortunate pilots) learned the hard way when the initial fatality rate was the worst in the industry. Now it's among the best...because the complexity is addressed through standardized transition training. Cirrus complex? Yes! Complex? No.
Click to expand...

You don't need transition training when you instrument train ab-initio. Cirrus has designed their training curriculum to transition VFR pilots to instrument pilots using their own aircraft. Why fly something else, else all you're looking for is the rating on your certificate?
 
Are you working on the IR to get the rating or are you working on the IR to fly your plane in IMC?
 
oregonboy109 said:
Why is the Cirrus trim so difficult? Is it an issue on all Cirri or something with yours that you could have fixed before doing IR in it?
Click to expand...

I find the trim to be a bit of a pain.
Roll trim especially.

It is not like a trim wheel where you can dial it in.
Bump it to the left with just a tap and you are fighting it, Bump it back to the right and same.

I haven't experienced it so much with pitch but Cirrus could really use some sort of fine tuning dial or just a trim wheel like so many other planes.

If the roll and pitch trim were a bit more like the rudder trim, it would be better. The rudder trim is very much a fine tuning deal where you are not going to give it too much.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Man, life is tough when you own a SR22!

The easiest plane to get your IFR in is the one you own, if you own a plane. You will know that panel and GPS like the back of your hand (or maybe even the front of your hand :)). Anyway, stick with the plane you own.

Thats not to say that a steam gauge Cessna with two VOR's, one with a GS wouldn't be easier. It would be, but you don't own that one!

Just the way life is....
Click to expand...
I agree. My uncle own SR22. From his experience I would like to tell you to go with 172 flight training is the best idea.
 
Apparently you don't have to be very smart to be a CTO. "A Cirrus is hypersensitive in pitch" - well waaaaah, waaaah,waaaah - I learned instrument flying in a military helicopter - you wanna tell me about hypersensitive ? If you can't hold altitude in a Cirrus now just exactly when do you plan on learning ?
 
Never flew a Cirrus, but did fly a Lanceair, which isn't all that dissimilar. Didn't find holding altitude to be all that difficult once the trim was dialed in. Indeed. I found it rock solid.
 
What most non cirrus pilots don't understand is that there is no trim tab that you control from the cockpit. The trim controls the main control surfaces. This is why it is a bit of a challenge to trim with the same refinements as in a 172 etc. this with the fact that the cirrus is very responsive to inputs it makes some cirrus pilots feel like it is difficult to trim. I find it difficult to get the trim as refined as a cessna. Its not enough to lose 200' of altitude though. If you cant keep the airplane within 200' then I would say you should just focus more on that. I would do the training in your cirrus.
 
JasonM said:
What most non cirrus pilots don't understand is that there is no trim tab that you control from the cockpit. The trim controls the main control surfaces. This is why it is a bit of a challenge to trim with the same refinements as in a 172 etc. this with the fact that the cirrus is very responsive to inputs it makes some cirrus pilots feel like it is difficult to trim.
Click to expand...

Did I just read that the SR-22 cannot be trimmed without the AP engaged because it is very responsive to inputs?
 
If you had to get a Gulfstream type-rating you wouldn't do the checkride in a Citation sim because it's easier. Train until you can hold altitude. Find a CSIP instructor to do your IR.
 
rolivi said:
Did I just read that the SR-22 cannot be trimmed without the AP engaged because it is very responsive to inputs?
Click to expand...
You can trim it with the AP engaged. In fact we have a message on the PFD that tells us if we are out of aileron trim and will show the direction we need to flick our trim switch.
 
jordane93 said:
You can trim it with the AP engaged. In fact we have a message on the PFD that tells us if we are out of aileron trim and will show the direction we need to flick our trim switch.
Click to expand...

My question was:
Did I just read that the SR-22 cannot be trimmed without the AP engaged because it is very responsive to inputs?

It was meant in the same spirit as "landing a Cirrus without pulling the red handle", "climbing above 500AGL without coupling up", and "finding a destination without two magenta lines".
 
rolivi said:
My question was:
Did I just read that the SR-22 cannot be trimmed without the AP engaged because it is very responsive to inputs?

It was meant in the same spirit as "landing a Cirrus without pulling the red handle", "climbing above 500AGL without coupling up", and "finding a destination without two magenta lines".
Click to expand...
Oops I guess I can't read. The trim isn't bad at all and shouldn't be used as an excuse for not holding altitude.
 
JasonM said:
What most non cirrus pilots don't understand is that there is no trim tab that you control from the cockpit. The trim controls the main control surfaces. This is why it is a bit of a challenge to trim with the same refinements as in a 172 etc. this with the fact that the cirrus is very responsive to inputs it makes some cirrus pilots feel like it is difficult to trim. I find it difficult to get the trim as refined as a cessna. Its not enough to lose 200' of altitude though. If you cant keep the airplane within 200' then I would say you should just focus more on that. I would do the training in your cirrus.
Click to expand...

Is this more difficult to trim than, say, a skywagon, PA18, J3, pilatus, etc where you trim via moving the entire stab?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top