vent window on PA28-180

etsisk

etsisk

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What's the common wisdom about opening the vent window in flight on the 180?

I've heard, you can do it. I've heard you can't - with accompanying anecdote about some guy that did so and shattered that window.

Don't want to be paying for no broken windows, here, so what do y'all think? Is it doable?
 
etsisk said:
What's the common wisdom about opening the vent window in flight on the 180?

I've heard, you can do it. I've heard you can't - with accompanying anecdote about some guy that did so and shattered that window.

Don't want to be paying for no broken windows, here, so what do y'all think? Is it doable?
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Tom, I seem to remember doing it with an Archer II and Warrior with nothing bad happening. I don't recall trying it in a 180, but I wouldn't be surprised if I had when I was a student. My recollection is that it makes the cabin fairly noisy, though.
 
It makes noise, and it will not shatter the window.
 
I've done it a few times in both 180s and Archers. No issues...
 
The airflow will be out the window. Maybe somebody had a window that seemed stuck closed and he used a screwdriver or similar to pry it open and busted it? <-- Pure speculation. Nothing will happen if you open yours.

-Skip
 
you can open the window, but can't use the scoop in flight. the scoop is nice to stick out there during ground ops though.
 
The window in my PA-32 is placarded to not be opened above 129 KIAS, I would (probably incorrectly) assume that the window and plexi are similar to the PA-28.


James Dean
 
If the window shattered when he opened it, it was over due for replacement anyway and probably showing cracks and crazing. I open the window anytime I need to. I can confirm that the same does not apply to the scoop, if you have one. I forgot to pull it in before take off once and it exited through the open window. Monroe, LA - I apologize for trashing up your runway.
 
I've flown a PA28-161 quite a few times and wondered that myself - The POH for the model I've been flying (Warrior II) does not say anything at all about opening/closing in flight or any airspeed restrictions.
 
I can't imagine not being able to do it. Like someone said, don't use the scoop (if so equipped). Heck, you can open the windows in the 182RG up to Vne (180 knots). Pipers can't be that much poorer built than my Cessna...:rofl:

Well, maybe they can...
 
I opened the window quite often in my Cherokee 180 when I had it. Its VERY loud, but that's about it.
 
Seems to me that I've seen a maximum window open speed (something like 130 mph IAS) in at least one PA-28 AFM, although the old dinky owner's manuals don't have it.
 
I've done it in really hot weather. Sometimes the lower air pressure outside makes it hard (and occasionally impossible) to open, but once it's open it's OK.

I believe that the POH for that plane requires opening the window and turning on the vents in case of the need to use the alternate static source.
 
I fly with the window open all summer in the 180D without issue (except the noise).
 
Don't know about the fixed gear varients (never flown one), but the club's PA-28R-200 doesn't have a scoop, nor is there a placard, and I open it in flight without any problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
Seems to me that I've seen a maximum window open speed (something like 130 mph IAS) in at least one PA-28 AFM, although the old dinky owner's manuals don't have it.
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Quite possible on the newer ones (although I didn't see one listed in the Flight School's Arrow...but I wasn't looking either). My Cherokee had the old Owner's Manual with almost no useful info in it.
 
SkyHog said:
Quite possible on the newer ones (although I didn't see one listed in the Flight School's Arrow...but I wasn't looking either). My Cherokee had the old Owner's Manual with almost no useful info in it.
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Even the old Cherokees with the skimpy owner's manual also had a required (as in "gotta be in the plane to be legal to fly") Airplane Flight Manual which included limitations like this.
 
One of the warriors I fly has a placard for something like do not open over 105.
 
Ron Levy said:
Even the old Cherokees with the skimpy owner's manual also had a required (as in "gotta be in the plane to be legal to fly") Airplane Flight Manual which included limitations like this.
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What? Was I supposed to write it myself? It didn't exist for a 1965 Piper Cherokee 180. We had "The Cherokee C Owner's Hanbook" by Piper in the airplane at all times. That's the only document that was ever written by Piper for that airplane. This handbook was approx. 32 pages long, and I just reread it, there's no mention of window speed. It does, however, list other limitations, such as Vne, in it.

Was I breaking the regs by flying an airplane without a manual that doesn't exist?
 
I've not seen any limitation in either the POH or AFM for my 71 Cherokee. I don't like the window open for take off and landing because it kind of gets in the way of my left arm. Opening it only serves a purpose in the summer at low altitudes where the OAT is fairly high. Cycling it does test the integrity of your static system in the cabin. It causes a pressure change in the cabin, If your static instruments react, you have a leak. The scoop mentioned is an add on accessory from Sporty's (or elsewhere).
 
SkyHog said:
What? Was I supposed to write it myself?
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Yes

Super Cruiser I flew had no manual of any sort. No published speeds either. That I knew of.

The problem is you don't know what you don't know. Of course the FAA doesn't care what you do or don't know.

Doncha know?
 
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Graueradler said:
I've not seen any limitation in either the POH or AFM for my 71 Cherokee.
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If it's there, I'm guessing that it's not published as a "limitation", but more likely simply as a placard that is required to be installed.

I remember a placard, but don't remember whether it was in the '66 Cherokee 180 or the '69 Cherokee Six...or the '77 Archer, or the... ;)

I do remember, however, that my Dad used to empty the ash tray by opening the window and holding the ash tray up next to it ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
Well Tom i own a warrior II and i fly with the window open. i usually take off with it closed and then at altitude i open it, never had a problem other then papers blowing off the back seat. And yes it is noisier then with it closed.I dont have a scoop but heard thats a NO-NO when flying (ground use only).
Dave G
 
SkyHog said:
What? Was I supposed to write it myself? It didn't exist for a 1965 Piper Cherokee 180.
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Yes, it did -- the AFM for a '65 Cherokee 180 is Piper Report No. VB-163, dated 8/3/62.

We had "The Cherokee C Owner's Hanbook" by Piper in the airplane at all times. That's the only document that was ever written by Piper for that airplane.
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Not according to page 37 of the TCDS.

This handbook was approx. 32 pages long, and I just reread it, there's no mention of window speed. It does, however, list other limitations, such as Vne, in it.
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I believe you, but I think that limitation is in the AFM, not the Owner's Handbook.

Was I breaking the regs by flying an airplane without a manual that doesn't exist?
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No, you were breaking the regs by flying an airplane without a manual that does exist and is required to be in the airplane during flight -- "The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulation (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. In addition, the following documents are required..."

In your defense, this is not a well-known requirement, and those AFM's have been known to get separated from their aircraft. But it is required, and you were illegal without it.
 
Not only can you open it, if you ever take off and forget to close the upper door latch you'll have to open it. Opening the side window is the only way I could ever get the door to close enough in flight so that I could latch it.

Dan
 
James_Dean said:
The window in my PA-32 is placarded to not be opened above 129 KIAS, I would (probably incorrectly) assume that the window and plexi are similar to the PA-28.
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The storm window itself is identical between the PA-32 and the PA-28. The pilot's side window is shaped somewhat differently however.

There's no limitation on opening the storm window in flight in the Warrior II, Archer II, or Dakota manuals that I have here (all of them mention the feature).

Next question: Why does Piper call it a "storm window"?

Regards,
Joe
 
Joe B said:
The storm window itself is identical between the PA-32 and the PA-28. The pilot's side window is shaped somewhat differently however.

There's no limitation on opening the storm window in flight in the Warrior II, Archer II, or Dakota manuals that I have here (all of them mention the feature).

Next question: Why does Piper call it a "storm window"?

Regards,
Joe
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So you can hand money to the line boy during a storm without getting wet.

I dunno how you explain not checking and sumping the tanks.
 
SkyHog said:
What? Was I supposed to write it myself? It didn't exist for a 1965 Piper Cherokee 180. We had "The Cherokee C Owner's Hanbook" by Piper in the airplane at all times. That's the only document that was ever written by Piper for that airplane. This handbook was approx. 32 pages long, and I just reread it, there's no mention of window speed. It does, however, list other limitations, such as Vne, in it.

Was I breaking the regs by flying an airplane without a manual that doesn't exist?
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Try this: http://www.newpiper.com/company/faq.asp?FAQID=21
And this: http://www.newpiper.com/company/faq.asp?FAQID=24

Don't know if you can actually download it anywhere though. Probably a copywrite violation anyway. Piper will charge for this, and if you register it they will send you updates.
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
P.S.: What year is your plane? If it is earlier than 1979 and under 6000 pounds you don't need a official serialized AFM, but you are supposed to have a copy of the right AFM. See this:http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/poh.html
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That's generally true, but not if the pre-'79 aircraft's type certificate includes a requirement for such an AFM, and the PA28 series' TCDS does have such a requirement, all the way back to 1962 -- by s/n and N-number.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's generally true, but not if the pre-'79 aircraft's type certificate includes a requirement for such an AFM, and the PA28 series' TCDS does have such a requirement, all the way back to 1962 -- by s/n and N-number.
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Not sure where you see that. I checked the TCDS. All it says is the Piper report AFM is required. You can identify WHICH AFM by aircraft serial number. The issue is whether the AFM itself (VB-163 for me) needs to be serialized and registered to the tail number. The information is the same, and it looks like before 1979.... Do you have a citation for that? Perhaps related to Piper being able to send any update or change to the owner(s)? The VB-163 last revision date is about 1975.
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Not sure where you see that. I checked the TCDS. All it says is the Piper report AFM is required. You can identify WHICH AFM by aircraft serial number. The issue is whether the AFM itself (VB-163 for me) needs to be serialized and registered to the tail number. The information is the same, and it looks like before 1979.... Do you have a citation for that? Perhaps related to Piper being able to send any update or change to the owner(s)? The VB-163 last revision date is about 1975.
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Contact your local FSDO Airworthiness folks if you want more. All I can say for sure is every PA28 I've flown as had one with s/n on it in the plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
Contact your local FSDO Airworthiness folks if you want more. All I can say for sure is every PA28 I've flown as had one with s/n on it in the plane.
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I took your advice and talked to the local FSDO. It took a few minuted to be sure he understood the issue. The answer I got was that the AFM in the plane needs to be identified as the "right one" for that aircraft. In most cases that is most clear if the AFM is serialized and issued to the specifc aircraft. If the TCDS identifies a specific AFM for a range of aircraft serial numbers, and the identified AFM is in the plane and current, then the FAA is satisfied you have the right information for your aircraft. My conclusion after talking to him, is that if the AFM is not serialized and registered to the plane, then you ought to have the TCDS with you also to show that you have the right AFM.

That is the opinion of the guy I talked to anyway.
 
tonycondon said:
you can open the window, but can't use the scoop in flight. the scoop is nice to stick out there during ground ops though.
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I use a Mark 82 handheld scoop in my PA28-180.

That is, I stick my hand out the window.
 
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