How to remind ATC without sounding like jerk.

stratobee

stratobee

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
1,112
Display Name
Display name:
stratobee
Today at KSBA I got the usual "standby for release".

And waited.
And waited.
And waited.

Passing in front of me were at least 3 regional jets who just taxied up and pretty much went. And tons of landings. Since I was on ground freq, I couldn't hear if they got the release from tower, but they didn't on ground freq. It looked like they just taxied up to the hold short line and went.

After about 10 minutes I called up tower again and just asked: "What's the latest on that release?" in as cheerful a tone I could. Think he took it the right way, but I couldn't help feeling I was coming across as impatient and snippy. I just wanted clarification and worried he'd forgotten about me.

Is there a good way to do this?

And also - how come I never hear the clearances for regional jets or releases on the GND freq? Do they get them electronically?
 
Last edited:
"Tower, N12345, ready in sequence" can work as a memory jog... and if s/he hasn't forgotten about you, you'll get an update.
 
I've been known to say, " Niner Two Romeo still waiting for release..."

Never a problem.
 
"Ready to go at 23 and Alpha" :dunno:
 
"Tower, do you have an estimate on the delay?"
Click to expand...

That's a good one. I'll use that next time. It prods, but without being demanding.
 
Curious, were you sent somewhere by ground to wait? Usually I'm on tower, having already advised ready for departure, when they're working out my release. Maybe the controller was expecting you to come up on the TWR frequency.

Wait, are we talking your clearance, or your release?
 
stratobee said:
That's a good one. I'll use that next time. It prods, but without being demanding.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd second that technique. As a variation, I have also used "say reason for delay" after a few patient minutes. 8/10 times they have just forgotten, and I've never had anything other than a courteous response, generally in the form of an immediate clearance. I think there are a million ways you could skin that cat, but just like dealing with over tasked wait staff at a restaurant or something, getting angry rarely helps the cause, while being considerate generally will get you a helping hand. It sounds like you are already well aware of that
 
I may not understand your question.
When I fly out of KSBA I call clearance delivery and they give me my departure instructions and tell me what to squawk.
If my read back is correct clearance delivery tells me to contact ground.
Ground gives me taxi instructions and has me taxi to the hold short line and contact tower.
Tower tells me when to take off and once airborne to call departure.
Departure makes radar contact, verifies altitude and gives me traffic advisories until I am out of their airspace plus a little.
I have never had to remind them of anything.
 
Vance Breese said:
I may not understand your question.
When I fly out of KSBA I call clearance delivery and they give me my departure instructions and tell me what to squawk.
If my read back is correct clearance delivery tells me to contact ground.
Ground gives me taxi instructions and has me taxi to the hold short line and contact tower.
Tower tells me when to take off and once airborne to call departure.
Departure makes radar contact, verifies altitude and gives me traffic advisories until I am out of their airspace plus a little.
I have never had to remind them of anything.
Click to expand...

You do if you switch to GND when CD says "standby for release" instead of standing by on CD.
 
Nistlerooy said:
Perhaps the confusion is in the terminology? As a controller I've come to learn that not everyone recognizes the difference between Clearance and Release.

A clearance is what you get from ground or CD/FD: "N123 cleared to the KXYZ airport via..."

A release is what you get after you're finished with your run-up and ready for departure. You advise whomever (ground or tower depending on the airport, normally), and then a designated person in the tower has to call the controlling approach control (TRACON or Center, again depending on your airport) and request release for you. That controlling entity issues the release, the released at time, or the hold. The tower then relays that to you, the pilot and, if released, clears you for takeoff.
Click to expand...

I felt I did not understand the original posters question because I have never had the tower say “standby for release” for a VFR flight at SBA.
 
stratobee said:
Today at KSBA I got the usual "standby for release".

And waited.
And waited.
And waited.

Passing in front of me were at least 3 regional jets who just taxied up and pretty much went. And tons of landings. Since I was on ground freq, I couldn't hear if they got the release from tower, but they didn't on ground freq. It looked like they just taxied up to the hold short line and went.

After about 10 minutes I called up tower again and just asked: "What's the latest on that release?" in as cheerful a tone I could. Think he took it the right way, but I couldn't help feeling I was coming across as impatient and snippy. I just wanted clarification and worried he'd forgotten about me.

Is there a good way to do this?

And also - how come I never hear the clearances for regional jets or releases on the GND freq? Do they get them electronically?
Click to expand...

Standard procedure here in Jackson Hole /Delta airspace......

All IFR's get a clearance on call up to ground after stating they have ATIS..

Normally heavies from the commercial ramp get cleared to push and their clearance around the same time.. All of us, either VFR or IFR, taxi to the active and line up in sequence... We all are on tower by then and they will give pecking orders on who gets to take off next...

Usual phrase is " United 12345 ready at the end..... Tower will either say "cleared for take off on more often "hold short runway 19, waiting center release"..

In 10 years or so, I can think of maybe one or two times they forgot about me so I give my ( suggestion) of "Tower, 1Bravo Hotel ready for VFR departure, I can sneak around the wing of the heavy or just leave from the taxi way., I only need about 100 feet.... It gets laughs every time and I am on my way...

The ATC guys and gals here are the best. In fact I just bought a couple of hundred dollars worth of gift certificates to a local bar and food joint yesterday and delivered them last night... Of course I doesn't hurt that I give all the controllers rides in my plane when they first get here, so they can see the world from the pilots perspective...

In short,,,, A polite but comical reminder gets the departure oiled up..:yes:..:D....;)
 
Last edited:
I've been forgotten in flight on flight following twice. Not wanting to call the controller out on the air, I just "accidentally bumped into the ident button". A few seconds later, we got our hand off.
 
Not sure about this particular facility but when I did ATC we were required to give local an estimated time of delay. Example:

"Request release Check 11 runway five."
"Check 11 hold for release, expect one minute delay."

Every facility is different I guess.
 
stratobee said:
... Is there a good way to do this? ...
Click to expand...
Lots of good answers here, but I don't think I've see this one: Call the tower on the phone and ask them your question.

I call an ATC facility maybe once or twice a year with a question. Tower, TRACON, or Center, it doesn't matter. In every case I end up talking to an engaged and helpful person. The ones I like best are when the guy or gal says: "Gee, that's a good question. Can you hold while I ask around for a little bit?"

In the bigger picture, try to spend some time in the tower. Probably all it will take is asking. Also try to spend some time "plugged in" at your local TRACON and Center. You will learn a lot!

Controllers, please comment here. What's your facility's policy on pilot requests to spend some time in a tower or plugged in with a controller?
 
I did CD and got my clearance. Then I taxied on GND to runup (which is just by threshold at 25). I advised on GND I was ready for release and was instructed to go to tower. It's different at every airport - some want you to to advise on GND (as at my home airport), some on tower freq.
 
Best way to understand delays is by taking a tower / radar tour. That is even if they'll let you hang out during the high traffic periods that create delays.

Look at IFR departures as "crap" rolling up hill and each position screwing over a position that's more senior to them. :D First you have Tower Coordinator & Clearance Delivery positions. These are basic low stress positions. Coordinator is just pulling strips out of the printer and putting them on holders. CD can only give one clearance at a time so there's no real urgency there. Kinda like GCA. CC & CD become a thorn in the side of Ground Control once they start pilling up strips on GC's strip board. GC's goal now is to whiddle down their board and offload their crap on to Local Control. Local now has the problem of trying to fit all these stinking departures in the bee hive that he has in the tower pattern. Not to mention they're tired of hearing GC "cross rwy 23 at Delta?" Local's goal now is to clean up their strip board and give their mess to a Departure Controller who already has a full plate in a finite amount of airspace. They're cursing LC for giving them a flight of four nonstandard trail departure when they don't even have room for even a single. DC gives LC a "hold for release" but you also know that won't "fly." It's only a short reprieve knowing you have to get them out because it's only going to create a backlog in departures. DC now takes that departure and sends their dirty laundry to ARTCC who is now cursing DC because they just made a headache in their happy enroute world. ARTCC ignores the flash almost hoping it will go away but all it does is delay the inevitable. Finally, DC keys the landline for a verbal handoff knowing darn well ARTCC is looking at it, only to hear "keep him coming." Finally, after what seems like an eternity, ARTCC takes the handoff / point out and has taken the burden off DC's shoulders. God forbid you get a ground stop or loss of radar in all that mess. :(

Then for arrivals, the position hierarchy reverses itself and you screw over the guy below you. Only CC and GCA never really get screwed because they're easy positions. It's not fair.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
Best way to understand delays is by taking a tower / radar tour. That is even if they'll let you hang out during the high traffic periods that create delays.

Look at IFR departures as "crap" rolling up hill and each position screwing over a position that's more senior to them. :D First you have Tower Coordinator & Clearance Delivery positions. These are basic low stress positions. Coordinator is just pulling strips out of the printer and putting them on holders. CD can only give one clearance at a time so there's no real urgency there. Kinda like GCA. CC & CD become a thorn in the side of Ground Control once they start pilling up strips on GC's strip board. GC's goal now is to whiddle down their board and offload their crap on to Local Control. Local now has the problem of trying to fit all these stinking departures in the bee hive that he has in the tower pattern. Not to mention they're tired of hearing GC "cross rwy 23 at Delta?" Local's goal now is to clean up their strip board and give their mess to a Departure Controller who already has a full plate in a finite amount of airspace. They're cursing LC for giving them a flight of four nonstandard trail departure when they don't even have room for even a single. DC gives LC a "hold for release" but you also know that won't "fly." It's only a short reprieve knowing you have to get them out because it's only going to create a backlog in departures. DC now takes that departure and sends their dirty laundry to ARTCC who is now cursing DC because they just made a headache in their happy enroute world. ARTCC ignores the flash almost hoping it will go away but all it does is delay the inevitable. Finally, DC keys the landline for a verbal handoff knowing darn well ARTCC is looking at it, only to hear "keep him coming." Finally, after what seems like an eternity, ARTCC takes the handoff / point out and has taken the burden off DC's shoulders. God forbid you get a ground stop or loss of radar in all that mess. :(

Then for arrivals, the position hierarchy reverses itself and you screw over the guy below you. Only CC and GCA never really get screwed because they're easy positions. It's not fair.
Click to expand...

Post of the year.....:yes:..:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
stratobee said:
And also - how come I never hear the clearances for regional jets or releases on the GND freq? Do they get them electronically?
Click to expand...


At certain airports the airlines receive an IFR clearance through an electronic means. (KSBA isn't one of them.) At really busy airports, electronic clearances reduce frequency congestion.

The clearance can be shown on an electronic box called ACARS and the pilot doesn't need to ask ATC for the clearance. This is called pre-departure clearance.

The system is very handy but not foolproof. NASA ASRS site has an oldie-but-goodie page rounding up several errors that crews have made: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/directline/dl5_pdc.htm

Fltplan.com has some info here: http://www.fltplan.com/pdcinfo.htm

From the AIM:

5-2-2. Pre-departure Clearance Procedures

a. Many airports in the National Airspace System are equipped with the Tower Data Link System (TDLS) that includes the Pre-departure Clearance (PDC) function. The PDC function automates the Clearance Delivery operations in the ATCT for participating users. The PDC function displays IFR clearances from the ARTCC to the ATCT. The Clearance Delivery controller in the ATCT can append local departure information and transmit the clearance via data link to participating airline/service provider computers. The airline/service provider will then deliver the clearance via the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) or a similar data link system or, for nondata link equipped aircraft, via a printer located at the departure gate. PDC reduces frequency congestion, controller workload and is intended to mitigate delivery/readback errors. Also, information from participating users indicates a reduction in pilot workload.

b. PDC is available only to participating aircraft that have subscribed to the service through an approved service provider.

c. Due to technical reasons, the following limitations currently exist in the PDC program:

1. Aircraft filing multiple flight plans are limited to one PDC clearance per departure airport within a 24-hour period. Additional clearances will be delivered verbally.

2. If the clearance is revised or modified prior to delivery, it will be rejected from PDC and the clearance will need to be delivered verbally.

d. No acknowledgment of receipt or readback is required for a PDC.

e. In all situations, the pilot is encouraged to contact clearance delivery if a question or concern exists regarding an automated clearance.
 
Velocity173 said:
Best way to understand delays is by taking a tower / radar tour. That is even if they'll let you hang out during the high traffic periods that create delays.



Look at IFR departures as "crap" rolling up hill and each position screwing over a position that's more senior to them. :D First you have Tower Coordinator & Clearance Delivery positions. These are basic low stress positions. Coordinator is just pulling strips out of the printer and putting them on holders. CD can only give one clearance at a time so there's no real urgency there. Kinda like GCA. CC & CD become a thorn in the side of Ground Control once they start pilling up strips on GC's strip board. GC's goal now is to whiddle down their board and offload their crap on to Local Control. Local now has the problem of trying to fit all these stinking departures in the bee hive that he has in the tower pattern. Not to mention they're tired of hearing GC "cross rwy 23 at Delta?" Local's goal now is to clean up their strip board and give their mess to a Departure Controller who already has a full plate in a finite amount of airspace. They're cursing LC for giving them a flight of four nonstandard trail departure when they don't even have room for even a single. DC gives LC a "hold for release" but you also know that won't "fly." It's only a short reprieve knowing you have to get them out because it's only going to create a backlog in departures. DC now takes that departure and sends their dirty laundry to ARTCC who is now cursing DC because they just made a headache in their happy enroute world. ARTCC ignores the flash almost hoping it will go away but all it does is delay the inevitable. Finally, DC keys the landline for a verbal handoff knowing darn well ARTCC is looking at it, only to hear "keep him coming." Finally, after what seems like an eternity, ARTCC takes the handoff / point out and has taken the burden off DC's shoulders. God forbid you get a ground stop or loss of radar in all that mess. :(



Then for arrivals, the position hierarchy reverses itself and you screw over the guy below you. Only CC and GCA never really get screwed because they're easy positions. It's not fair.
Click to expand...


You know it's going down the tubes when the "finite amount of airspace" phrase is whipped out! ;)
 
Tell them you're ordering a Pizza and ask what toppings they prefer.

They only have "control" of your place in the grid and they are "coordinating" your entrance to the next place, so yah, it can seem forever before two busy people make the release happen.

It seems like forever when you're sitting with the prop burning money... er fuel...
 
Once I think SBA tower forgot about me. They knew I was heading back to Kwhp Whiteman and wanted a left crosswind turn. They instructed me to continue straight out over the ocean on runway heading under a certain altitude. I kept at that for what seemed a very long time to the point where I was starting to be nervous so far out. I was a student pilot and not sure quite what to do so I casually let them know I'd love to turn crosswind when possible. They granted that immediately and I got the sense they had just forgotten. Or maybe I was doing something wrong. Not sure....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Here in Austin (KAUS) with our two big beautiful runways and great controllers departure delays are rare UNLESS Houston or Dallas has thunderstorms, ice, dogs and cats living together. Which happens from time to time.

When Dallas or Houston are being punished by God then that causes a lot of airliners to have ATC related delays. The airline pilots don't seem the least bit shy about 'reminding' ATC that they really would like to leave our beautiful city for the Dallas or Houston hellholes.
 
Don't worry about what you sound like. For that matter, do not read anything into the controller's tone of voice.

Bob Gardner
 
FlyingMonkey said:
Once I think SBA tower forgot about me. They knew I was heading back to Kwhp Whiteman and wanted a left crosswind turn. They instructed me to continue straight out over the ocean on runway heading under a certain altitude. I kept at that for what seemed a very long time to the point where I was starting to be nervous so far out. I was a student pilot and not sure quite what to do so I casually let them know I'd love to turn crosswind when possible. They granted that immediately and I got the sense they had just forgotten. Or maybe I was doing something wrong. Not sure....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

As for sounding like a jerk, I would never worry about this.. ATC works for you.:yes:

Happens all the time with them... I usually ask for a turn to the east or asked if I missed my hand-off...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top