Mooney M20E/F or Debonair?

Occasionally one of them finds its way into the shop, so I peek inside like every other pilot who passes by just to see what's there. The answer in the club section is "everything but room" to the point it's laughable, as in YGBSM!

Fearless Tower said:
Same thing for the non-club seating in the early PA32s. Ridiculous.
Click to expand...
 
Ok, starting to feel a Mooney or a Deb might be a little overkill. What about a Cessna 177B or 177w with the 180hp conversion? I've flown an RG and liked it, but never went anywhere in it, just local.
 
N2124v said:
Ok, starting to feel a Mooney or a Deb might be a little overkill. What about a Cessna 177B or 177w with the 180hp conversion? I've flown an RG and liked it, but never went anywhere in it, just local.
Click to expand...

350-400NM with 1-2 passengers as a typical flight? How often do you plan on doing this trip? I did a warrior II solo for 840NM round trips every other weekend and that was painful. Beat driving for sure, but boy that 110KTAS and that climb rate, oh the climb rate :mad2:. Meaning, it did it, but it wasn't pleasant. I'd overpurchase just a bit of capability and it should keep you happy for a long time. You can accomplish your mission profile with a warrior II, but it isn't pleasant.

As to Cardinals. Stay away from the 68' 180HP conversion 177s. They retain the original 2350# MGW even after the engine upgrade, so you're shooting yourself in the foot there. My warrior II had a higher useful load than that (2440# MGW) on 20 less HP. Science-wise 177s are structurally identical to the As and Bs (1969 177As are 177Bs with a fixed prop, though they retain the earlier sleek NACA wing airfoil common with the 68' 177 btw), but the STC holders never bothered with getting the increase in the MGW, so there it sat. The As and Bs are 2500# MGW airplanes. The 177Bs are overpriced for what they give you IMO, which is a slightly faster Piper Archer. They are great for the cabin comfort though. 48" cabins and a garage for a back seat. Doors are garage sized too. Just a dream for passengers.

Frankly if you're gonna go Cardinal, go RG. 135-140 KTAS on 9-10.5gph and enough useful load to do your 3 people mission comfortably and very attractive block times. Now, if you can find a significant discount on a 177B over the going rates for 177RGs, then sure go for it. I just don't see any niche on the 177B pricing. Lots of faster airplanes with more HP and higher useful loads in the same price range. Cardinal pricing is cult pricing.

Your mission is very similar to mine. From my experience you should calculate your yearly trip usage based on nautical miles, not hours. That really will dictate whether you realize the economy of gear costs versus big engines on fixed gear. A fixed gear 4-banger is a given on being the cheapest option, but you gotta ask yourself what premium are you willing to pay for comfort over 400NM. 100 mile burgers? Sure, stuff yourself in a stock 172, but over 350nm with the ladies, yeah you gotta up the ante a little bit. A Mooney F is not going to set you back any more than any other retract in it's class and will keep you happy, but the cabin comfort is something you have to determine for yourself and your passengers. I'm willing to go a little slower for better cabin comfort (cardinal RG, 182 or Arrow). Agreed, the six cylinder birds are overkill for your mission, but it might still prove economical DEPENDING on your yearly miles flown. If you intend on putting less than 10,000NM/yr, forego the gear costs and just go big bore fixed gear. But at the same time, are you positive you won't have years where you wish to up your mileage? That's where the retracts could shine, as these gas prices don't seem to ever go down.

I don't think a Mooney is overkill for your mission. A Debonair might be (six cylinders AND gear costs). If you're gonna go fixed gear go Pathfinder or 182. Otherwise go retract. Skip the fixed gear 4 bangers. Good luck!
 
hindsight2020 said:
Science-wise 177s are structurally identical to the As and Bs (1969 177As are 177Bs with a fixed prop, though they retain the earlier sleek NACA wing airfoil common with the 68' 177 btw),
Click to expand...

I don't think that is correct. It was my understanding that the 177B used a different airfoil, and some of the last of the 177As might have as well.

Passengers love the 177. If I were a Cessna man, it's likely the only one I would want, barring a 195 of course. If you have to sit in it for a few hours a week, the 177 would be a nice place to be. Both front and back seating.
 
Good question about Mooney versus a Debonair. I own a Mooney and a 65 Debonair and I like them both. The Mooney is more sporty and sits lower. To me the Debonair is more forgiving on landing approaches and speeds. My Mooney wants the speed just right or it will float down the runway. The Debonair seats are higher and not as tight spaced. Comfort wise both seem about the same. I use ANR headsets but I could probably get away from using them in the Deb but not the Mooney. The Mooney is louder. Speed wise the Mooney is faster. I have a 201 J model with some speed mods. Fuel wise, the Mooney uses less fuel especially if I run LOP. My Deb doesn't seem to like running LOP and has a rougher feel. The Deboniar CHT's are higher on climb out and it has no cowl flaps. Some times I see over 400 degrees on the cylinders during climb. One thing I noticed about the Deb and sitting up higher, its seems like I'm more in the Sun and one time my I-Pad overheated. Sitting lower in the Mooney, I've never had an issue with that. Both planes are a +10 in my opinion. If you want a fast race car type get the Mooney if you want a easy and forgiving speedster get the Debonair. -- Darrell
 
Sat in one Mooney and decided it was built for me. Not worried about the back seat, I've used the one in my aircraft twice in the last 3 years. If me and Mrs. Steingar pack more than the fool thing carries we packed too much. I'd go for the M20E, and get the manual gear. Me like.

Mission, mission mission. I'm a shrimpy little guy with a tiny little wife. Lat Bo I was in I couldn't see over the dash.

As far as the 177 vs. the 172 v.s the Cherokee, me I'd go for the Skylane.
 
Deb is a hell of a lot easier to get into for many people than a Mooney. You just sit down, in a seating position that is basically like a Chevy truck, then slide over to the other seat. No big deal even for the old folk. Mooney is significantly more challenging for some since it's more race car like plus you can't just slide over.
 
Skybrd said:
Good question about Mooney versus a Debonair. I own a Mooney and a 65 Debonair and I like them both. The Mooney is more sporty and sits lower. To me the Debonair is more forgiving on landing approaches and speeds. My Mooney wants the speed just right or it will float down the runway. The Debonair seats are higher and not as tight spaced. Comfort wise both seem about the same. I use ANR headsets but I could probably get away from using them in the Deb but not the Mooney. The Mooney is louder. Speed wise the Mooney is faster. I have a 201 J model with some speed mods. Fuel wise, the Mooney uses less fuel especially if I run LOP. My Deb doesn't seem to like running LOP and has a rougher feel. The Deboniar CHT's are higher on climb out and it has no cowl flaps. Some times I see over 400 degrees on the cylinders during climb. One thing I noticed about the Deb and sitting up higher, its seems like I'm more in the Sun and one time my I-Pad overheated. Sitting lower in the Mooney, I've never had an issue with that. Both planes are a +10 in my opinion. If you want a fast race car type get the Mooney if you want a easy and forgiving speedster get the Debonair. -- Darrell
Click to expand...

You're a year late to this party but you do have the best answer, buy both!!!
 
This is funny, resurrect an year old thread that is still relevant, meaning I'm still looking!
 
Well, it's a large, completely discretionary purchase, so I am looking for just the right plane. I'm being very picky and methodical about it.
 
N2124v said:
Well, it's a large, completely discretionary purchase, so I am looking for just the right plane. I'm being very picky and methodical about it.
Click to expand...

Well, a year ago you were leaning towards fixed gear and Cardinals. I think if I were going fixed gear, I would definitely go with a Grumman Tiger. Simple, efficient and fun. Not sure about the backseat passenger space though. Although I have logged hours in the Grumman Traveler, I can't say I ever sat back there.

The great big advantage of the Cardinal is the great big doors. In my later years when I get older and creaky, I will probably trade to the Cardinal RG for ease of entry and exit. Until then, it's Mooney for me. However, if I wanted to lower MX costs a tiny bit, I'd go to the Tiger.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Porsche or Buick? Pretty easy choice. Too much hand wringing not good.
Click to expand...

LoL Porsche. I own a Mooney and hardly liken it to a Porsche. Stick time flying Chip's Extra 300L? Now that's Porsche-like. A Mooney? Maybe a sport sedan.
 
I'm leaning towards a mooney, just trying to find one that meets my criteria.
 
Well, the saga is almost over. Assuming nothing major comes up in the pre-buy, I'm taking delivery of a new to me 1966 Mooney M20E next Tuesday.
 
N2124v said:
Well, the saga is almost over. Assuming nothing major comes up in the pre-buy, I'm taking delivery of a new to me 1966 Mooney M20E next Tuesday.
Click to expand...

Excellent! Make sure to post pics when you get her home.
 
N2124v said:
Well, the saga is almost over. Assuming nothing major comes up in the pre-buy, I'm taking delivery of a new to me 1966 Mooney M20E next Tuesday.
Click to expand...

Good year for Mooneys....you'll have a blast!
 
JHW said:
Night and day difference. Beech and Cardinal designers seem to be the only ones who figured out that back seat passengers mostly have feet and need a place to put them. For double amputees, all brands are equal.
Click to expand...

fixed it for you. ;)
 
Congratulations!
 
JHW said:
Night and day difference. Beech designers seem to be the only ones who figured out that back seat passengers mostly have feet and need a place to put them. For double amputees, all brands are equal.
Click to expand...

Beech 36 and the 58 Baron pretty much rule that out. Oh, you have a place for your feet.....wedged in with the other passengers feet as well. :rolleyes:
 
Well, this is gonna be fun. We are doing the pre-buy on the mooney tomorrow, but the seller brought the plane in this afternoon for a test flight. Well, after he left I talked with my mechanic about some things and he suggested that if I had time to kill, attacking the oil build up on the bottom of the plane would help him out. Being the nice, and cheap, guy that I am, off I went to clean in the airplane.

I really wish I had taken pictures... The belly strobe was half black, I thought paint, nope oil. Well, while cleaning towards the tail I notice an antenna, kind of wing shaped, that was just goopy with oil, so I start cleaning int and what do I find? Friggin electrical tape wrapped around an obviously broken antenna. So, need less to say, the prebuy tomorrow is going to be interesting. Oh, and one nav light was out, but it just came out of annual yesterday... Sigh.......
 
N2124v said:
...Oh, and one nav light was out, but it just came out of annual yesterday... Sigh.......
Click to expand...
don't connect those dots. As you go on, you'll find that airplanes never have so many nuisance problems as the day they come out of annual or major maintenance.

as for the rest - you aren't buying a camry. People here would have you think the world is perfect. If you were going to look at a 1960's automobile you would expect to see some strange things. Airplanes are no different, every plane is a project to some degree.
 
Well, this is why you do pre-buys. Short list of what we found-
Dented nose gear truss
All the belly antennas were eroded
Cracked belly skins
Lots of missing fasteners
Shock discs out of limits
Brakes not working
And about 4 ad's that we can't verify compliance with.

On to the next one..... :-(
 
Well, that sucks. Better than buying a turkey, though. Hopefully a good one will present itself sooner rather than later.
 
I think this is a message from God telling you that what you actually want is a Bonanza.
 
jesse said:
I think this is a message from God telling you that what you actually want is a Bonanza.
Click to expand...

+1 silky 6 cylinder smoothness, most of the older ones are mogas approved, and a little more room.
 
I will give you two quick checks on any S or earlier Bonanza that will tell you if it's been maintained.

1. Use a flashlight, and look up in the rear well of the nose gear. Check the condition of the two rod covers. If they are not cracked, broken, missing, and you can't put your finger through them, move on to number 2.

2. Locate the inboard aileron hinge screws. The hinge screws should be on a doubler plate that is sticking up from the skin of the aileron. If there is no doubler plate, you will most likely see small cracks radiating from the skin edge toward the screw head, or sometimes axially from the screw head. Check for doubler on top and bottom of hinge screws.

If you find these two things to be in good order, continue the purchase process.
 
Well, happy day!! I'm on the red belly cash cow Thursday morning to pick up a new to me 1970 Mooney M20E! I'll post pics when I get it home.
 
Congratulations! 1970 was a good year, but I've got the other engine.

Enjoy learning your new ride, and fly safe! For God's sake, don't try to land fast and never push forward after the flare.
 
Been flying a new to me 66 E mooney since Feb. Awesome ride! Looked at a LOT of junk first.
 
jesse said:
I think this is a message from God telling you that what you actually want is a Bonanza.
Click to expand...


Nice! And you're right...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
N2124v said:
I'm starting to look for a new airplane. I've owned an M20E before so I am very familiar with the care and feeding of a Mooney. What about a Debonair? In you opinion which will be more expensive to maintain? I know the Deb will drink more. Thanks!

FYI. Typical flight will be 350-400nm, 2-3 people, normal baggage for a girl. :) Non IFR currently, but want to finish it.
Click to expand...

225hp or 285hp. Go fly a Beech and see what you think. I think the difference in cost over the ownership cycle between either will be a rounding error given equal quality purchase. If you liked the stability and stiffness of the Mooney you may not like the Deb. If you would like a more light handed, light hearted plane, the Deb may be a nice option. You could even look for an E or F 33C and get an aerobatic one. The Beech is more nimble and agile making it easier to manage the energy on. While with a Mooney you need to hit a very narrow target speed on final pretty well up, the Deb will give you a much wider range of energy you can be at 100' AGL on final and still make a beautiful landing. The 285 will be faster than the Mooney, the 225 about the same.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top