Cape Air Logging

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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I'm sure EdFred has this covered somewhere in the flowchart, but I'm more concerned about company policy: Suppose I am a private pilot on a Cape Air flight, and have the fortune of getting to ride shotgun. The pilot happens to be a CFI, and I've never flown in a multi engine before (or suppose I have). Could I log dual for this? I obviously couldn't get any PIC, but do you think company policy or the FARs would allow it? Note, this is purely hypothetical, and I'm not flying Cape Air any time soon--just intrigued by the concept of showing up to a commercial flight and whipping out my David Clarks and a logbook :D
 
Answer is "No". You can't log any of it, even if the PIC is a CFI. Neither the FAA nor company policy would allow for someone not employed by Cape Air to manipulate the controls of a revenue flight.
 
Darn, dreams shattered. It would still be pretty cool to fly commercial in a GA aircraft, especially in the right seat.
 
Pull your hood out, and ask him if he needs a safety pilot ;)
 
If the captain had the fish then maybe you will get to be "sole manipulator". Then I guess you can log it. No idea what you get to do if you are forced to land a multi-engine plane with only a SEL rating.
 
ebykowsky said:
I'm sure EdFred has this covered somewhere in the flowchart, but I'm more concerned about company policy: Suppose I am a private pilot on a Cape Air flight, and have the fortune of getting to ride shotgun. The pilot happens to be a CFI, and I've never flown in a multi engine before (or suppose I have). Could I log dual for this? I obviously couldn't get any PIC, but do you think company policy or the FARs would allow it? Note, this is purely hypothetical, and I'm not flying Cape Air any time soon--just intrigued by the concept of showing up to a commercial flight and whipping out my David Clarks and a logbook :D
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I have a better shot at a date with Rosario Dawson than you do of logging any time in that situation.

spinfire said:
If the captain had the fish then maybe you will get to be "sole manipulator". Then I guess you can log it. No idea what you get to do if you are forced to land a multi-engine plane with only a SEL rating.
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He still couldn't log it in either scenario. The only way to log when not rated (sport/rec pilot notwithstanding) is if you are the only one in the plane.
 
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spinfire said:
If the captain had the fish then maybe you will get to be "sole manipulator". Then I guess you can log it. No idea what you get to do if you are forced to land a multi-engine plane with only a SEL rating.
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In that case, you get to keep the plane. It's in the FARs... kinda like if a golfer hits you with a ball, you get his clubs, right?

Also, not saying I could fly a multi--because I couldn't, but seriously how hard would it be to get it down safely without bending anything? Assuming I could talk to ATC and figure out the Vspeeds. I would think that's really doable.
 
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Cape Air is 135 so not unless it is a 91 flight. In which case you wouldn't be on it .
 
ebykowsky said:
Also, not saying I could fly a multi--because I couldn't, but seriously how hard would it be to get it down safely without bending anything? Assuming I could talk to ATC and figure out the Vspeeds. I would think that's really doable.
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It should be doable. Big one is speeds and power settings, plus a long runway.
 
ebykowsky said:
In that case, you get to keep the plane. It's in the FARs... kinda like if a golfer hits you with a ball, you get his clubs, right?

Also, not saying I could fly a multi--because I couldn't, but seriously how hard would it be to get it down safely without bending anything? Assuming I could talk to ATC and figure out the Vspeeds. I would think that's really doable.
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You don't flare em quite like you do most singles, other than that landing one isn't much different than landing a single. Just remember to put the gear down, and keep it in the green on the ASI during approach, and hope an engine doesn't quit on you.
 
ebykowsky said:
I'm sure EdFred has this covered somewhere in the flowchart, but I'm more concerned about company policy: Suppose I am a private pilot on a Cape Air flight, and have the fortune of getting to ride shotgun. The pilot happens to be a CFI, and I've never flown in a multi engine before (or suppose I have). Could I log dual for this? I obviously couldn't get any PIC, but do you think company policy or the FARs would allow it? Note, this is purely hypothetical, and I'm not flying Cape Air any time soon--just intrigued by the concept of showing up to a commercial flight and whipping out my David Clarks and a logbook :D
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If the captain is a good friend of yours, like, for instance, a good enough friend that he comes to your house to help install sheetrock on your ceiling, and he is a CFI, and he is repositioning the aircraft, and it is late at night, and the weather is calm, and you are available to sit in the other seat, and you are properly dressed in black pants, white shirt, black shoes, ... it just might happen. :D But, you won't do the takeoff or landing.
 
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ebykowsky said:
I'm sure EdFred has this covered somewhere in the flowchart, but I'm more concerned about company policy: Suppose I am a private pilot on a Cape Air flight, and have the fortune of getting to ride shotgun. The pilot happens to be a CFI, and I've never flown in a multi engine before (or suppose I have). Could I log dual for this? I obviously couldn't get any PIC, but do you think company policy or the FARs would allow it? Note, this is purely hypothetical, and I'm not flying Cape Air any time soon--just intrigued by the concept of showing up to a commercial flight and whipping out my David Clarks and a logbook :D
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I've been in the right seat, and as Greg says, you cannot log anything or touch anything. I did get to put on a headset though, and chat with the pilot.
 
AdamZ said:
I thought that was a part 91 flight. The plane was owned by the private pilot who ended up landing the plane.
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Yeah, it was. Just an example of a person without multi experience having essentially no trouble landing the plane with a little bit of hand holding. While he was the owner of the King Air supposedly he did not fly it himself.

Will Cape Air deliberately seat a rated pilot passenger in the front seat if they are among the passengers? Obviously subject to weight and balance considerations.
 
Caution: Ridiculous rules wankery and hypotheticals ahead:

Regarding the King Air pilot scenario, even if he were the only passenger with an MEI rated pilot who had a heart attack and died then presumably he wouldn't get to log it as "dual time" because how is the dead guy going to sign his logbook? On the other hand, once the MEI dies wouldn't the SEL rated pilot become the sole occupant and thus he can log it as PIC?!
 
EdFred said:
You don't flare em quite like you do most singles, other than that landing one isn't much different than landing a single. Just remember to put the gear down, and keep it in the green on the ASI during approach, and hope an engine doesn't quit on you.
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That lady landed that... 421 I think? with one engine and she was in her 80's and never had gone post-solo. Not saying it was a good circumstance or that just anyone should go on trying it, but luckily it did work out for her.
 
spinfire said:
Caution: Ridiculous rules wankery and hypotheticals ahead:

Regarding the King Air pilot scenario, even if he were the only passenger with an MEI rated pilot who had a heart attack and died then presumably he wouldn't get to log it as "dual time" because how is the dead guy going to sign his logbook? On the other hand, once the MEI dies wouldn't the SEL rated pilot become the sole occupant and thus he can log it as PIC?!
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The presumption is that you've been signed off to fly that plane solo in order to log it. No sign off, no logging.
 
Ya there is no point to operate the 402 under 121 since it is less than 9 seats.
 
This one is dirt simple: The insurer likely prohibits operation of the aircraft on a revenue flight under Part 135 without an employee of the company who has passed a check ride and is current in type.
 
comanchepilot said:
This one is dirt simple: The insurer likely prohibits operation of the aircraft on a revenue flight under Part 135 without an employee of the company who has passed a check ride and is current in type.
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Insurance has nothing to do with it. Without a .293, .297, and .299 check you cannot operate an aircraft as PIC under part 135.

You can't even act as a crew member without a .293 check.
 
spinfire said:
Caution: Ridiculous rules wankery and hypotheticals ahead:

Regarding the King Air pilot scenario, even if he were the only passenger with an MEI rated pilot who had a heart attack and died then presumably he wouldn't get to log it as "dual time" because how is the dead guy going to sign his logbook? On the other hand, once the MEI dies wouldn't the SEL rated pilot become the sole occupant and thus he can log it as PIC?!
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Yes. 61.51(e)(1)(ii) covers this.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

  • (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

    • (ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
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Well, you could get a laugh if you showed up with your foggles anyway
 
EdFred said:
Except now you've provided evidence for a 61.31 violation. ;)
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I don't see the FAA getting into that in this situation, where the alternative is to sit back, do nothing, and die, but you never know. However, you might put something like "PIC died -- I saved the day" in the Remarks block, just to document it.
 
Didn't cape air get in trouble for letting a passenger fly for free so they could take off pt 91 below their 135 minimums, re position the plane and have a happy 'customer?' Get on one of those flights and if the pilot is a cfi you could log it...
 
As long as we're starting to have fun with this:

As we all know by now, logging is a creature unto itself. Nothing in 61.51 prohibits you, for example, from logging PIC time in an aircraft you stole.

If you are multi-rated (I forget what Cape Air flies but I don't think it requires a type rating) and the pilot agreed to let you fly or was willing to endorse dual, thereby placing himself, his company and you at regulatory risk, I think it's pretty clear that 61.51 would permit you to log the evidence of the Part 121 violation.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As long as we're starting to have fun with this:

As we all know by now, logging is a creature unto itself. Nothing in 61.51 prohibits you, for example, from logging PIC time in an aircraft you stole.

If you are multi-rated (I forget what Cape Air flies but I don't think it requires a type rating) and the pilot agreed to let you fly or was willing to endorse dual, thereby placing himself, his company and you at regulatory risk, I think it's pretty clear that 61.51 would permit you to log the evidence of the Part 121 violation.
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Plus, as a private pilot, you probably didn't share pro-rata when you flew the plane, so that's a 61.113 when you logged the time since the FAA sees logging time as compensation.
 
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