NYC Airspace Routings

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Martymccasland

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M.McCasland
I'm planning a trip into NYC this week. My last leg before landing White Plains (KHPN) will be Greater Cumberland Regional, Cumberland, MD (KCBE).

My Q: Is there any educated guess of what routing I will get in the NYC area to White Plains?

What I've done/read:

1) Preferred routes... However, they are J-Routes, pretty much way up to the NW of the area, then down - way out of the way, and far higher than I can fly in a 140knot single.

2) Foreflight suggested airways... It takes me right through the heart of the NYC airspace (...Trenton/TTN - V214 - METRO - V433 - TICKL -V123 - LGA - FAMMA - KHPN). Is such a routing right through the heart of the airspace realistic? Doesn't look it to me.

3) DUATs filing. I tried a trick I've used successfully in other busy airspaces: file direct via DUATS, then look up what the FAA computers change the direct routing to (by looking it up in FlightAware, FltPlan, etc...). It usually adds arrivals, transitions, etc... 90% of the time when I call C/D, I already have the routing they read off. So I filed a direct plan to see what it would get changed to... However, I get something strange for the cleared routing: "KCBE - HPN - KHPN" (not a typo / plan to hold over the airport ??? / theres no HPN VOR). I'm 99% sure such a route won't happen.

4) STARs. NOBBI doesn't look like it is suited for traffic except from the N, NW. Ditto for VALRE. The other STARS are for high and fast traffic.

So, any ideas what to expect so I can read-up and reasonably expect for the route of flight?

Many thanks in advance.
 
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STW, SAX HPN is what you'll get at or below 6,000, unless you go up high and file direct to somewher in the Boston area, and declare from FL19 that you need to change destination. The will not let you up into the FLs for a NYC destination from eastern PA, I don't know about Maryland...
 
A quick search of TEC routings from the FAA database shows this route from BWI to HPN, 7000 feet:

V93 LRP V39 V162 FJC STW SAX V39 BREZY HPN

Join this routing somewhere in PA and you should get what you file. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting what you want from CBE to wherever you can join this route.

TEC routes are found in the AF/D, and you can also download the database from the FAA. You generally have to find a major terminal near both your departure and destinations in the routings, then join one of those routes from your actual departure/destination points. This nearly always works for me. I've filed immediately acceptable routes from KVGC to KTTN, KBHB, KCON, KBWI, KPWM, KGAI, etc. this way. In your case, HPN is already a destination point in the routing database. So you just have to figure out a reasonable starting point to stand in for CBE.

Cheers.
 
Bruce is right - expect that - put in anywhere near DC to HPN - look at the Low Alt routes and check the prior routings on fltplan.com . . .

Just write down whatever they tell you for a routing but expect the above via vectors . .
 
In case others have the same NYC routing question, here's what I actually got from ATC for the NYC/Westchester arrival from the Ohio/WV/W PA area:

Lake Henry (LHY) - Kingston (IGN) - Carmel (CMK), with a few extra fixes thrown in, including a few re-routes / shaving off corners. I asked if altitude (I was at 9000) would affect routings, get me something like STW-SAX. They said "no". All lower (non FL traffic) and slower traffic would get pretty close to what I got.

The airport personnel said it was pretty busy. There was virtually no dead air on the radio for the last hour of the trip (at 140 knots). 'Did hear ATC deny a VFR request in the NYC area. Very few non-IFR planes on the freq I was on even with a 3-4k ceiling... Was a blast to have it so busy. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Maybe on a lighter day the STW-SAX route will occur. Increasingly, my SOP is evolving to: just file direct, let ATC change it (since they will anyway), look up what it changed to before calling C/D, study a little to get familiar, then call-up and let the games begin....
 
My CFII taught me to file, wait, then look up the routing on Flightaware so I can have it on paper as they read it to me.
 
anyplace west you go over LHY. . . you can also play the game - and file to DXR - then change the destination near MSV. . . .

but you ALWAYS go around PHL and BWI to the NORTH and WEST from anywhere west of the IAD-EWR line - If you depart South and East of that line or coming through in the FL's above the SFRA then you can expect -

NY LOVES to give you the intermediate fixes instead of giving you LHY V58 IGN V483 CMK . . . they need to make sure you understand where they want you . . . . its NY thing . . .
 
Go VFR?

The Bravo only goes to 7,000. Fly direct to NYACK at 7,500 and then drop down right into KHPN.

If the Wx doesn't allow VFR then file. I've always gotten something like:

CYN DRIFT J121 DUNEE.RICED4

Takes you way over the water and an extra 100nm or so. If I'm coming from far enough away that I need the flight levels then I file it (carry the gas to do it) but then cancel and go direct DPK. It's just outside the Bravo and I let down under the shelf and proceed direct to KHPN. Often I get cleared into the Bravo near DPK and just go straight to KHPN and fire straight in.

Works great. Enjoy the trip.
 
Don't knock yourself out.

Go to fltplan.com, file whatever the most popular routes shown are for your requested altitude, then just accept and copy whatever routing ATC gives you upon your departure, then expect to be re-routed enroute.

When you fly around here, you're playing by ATC's rules not yours. Along the way, if traffic and winds permit, and you want to shave some of the edges off the routing, ask and see if you can do so, if not, then it's not. True that you can expect to be routed west and north of the PHL/ACY/EWR/TEB corridor, or maybe they'll give you the slot along victor 1 to DIXIE and fit you into HPN east of JFK.

Again, in this airspace, you play by ATC's rules. Oh, and be up on your radio skills and keep within the assigned altitudes with a pretty narrow margin once you get into the NY Metro area.

It is fun flying in this airspace, seriously!
 
EppyGA said:
My CFII taught me to file, wait, then look up the routing on Flightaware so I can have it on paper as they read it to me.
Click to expand...

I've used that trick several times outside of NYC and it worked great. e.g. I file direct, wait a minute, look it up online and see the "cleared routing" with the DP/transitions, rest of the route. However, that didn't work in NYC.

I tried coming in Tuesday and it didn't change, yet ATC had a nice long route with several reroutes when I called up. Ditto for leaving. Filed 3 hours ahead of time to give it plenty of time to change. Never changed, yet my departure time moved 14 minutes forward from what I filed (I guess due to airspace congestion???).

Still, outside of NYC, that's a great trick. 95% of the time it's what C/D reads back.... I guess NY, just like with many things outside of ATC, is different.
 
DutchessFlier said:
Again, in this airspace, you play by ATC's rules. Oh, and be up on your radio skills and keep within the assigned altitudes with a pretty narrow margin once you get into the NY Metro area.

It is fun flying in this airspace, seriously!
Click to expand...

I'm just a small plane pilot that flies around for business and pleasure, but have been in 7-8 Class Bs several different times. NYC ATC made Chicago seem like landing at a little rural field in comparison. The KHPN airport people said between Labor Day, advance crews for the UN assembly, the US Open, Yankees in town, plus the normal traffic, it was especially busy.

'Kept being amazed how efficient, fun, terse the ATC comm was... Keep it very short and fast. Several times the controller sounded like he was keying the mic as I was just starting to release mine, giving the next instruction before someone else could break in... So much fun, yet I pity anyone who gets nervous on the radio (or is long-winded, sloppy with terminology). While I didn't hear it, I could see NY ATC razzing someone about "getting with the program"...

'Easily my most favorite aviation experience to date: NYC arrival/departure in busy IMC conditions.
 
EppyGA said:
My CFII taught me to file, wait, then look up the routing on Flightaware so I can have it on paper as they read it to me.
Click to expand...

If you file via fltplan.com there is a setting where you can receive an email with your expected routing. You can even enter other peoples emails. You actually get three emails; 1 saying you filed, another with the expected route (nice to have when getting the clearance like you said, and a third with any expected EDCTs.

That fltplan.com really is one stop shopping. Everything the IFR pilot needs in one easy spot.
 
Captain said:
If you file via fltplan.com there is a setting where you can receive an email with your expected routing. You can even enter other peoples emails. You actually get three emails; 1 saying you filed, another with the expected route (nice to have when getting the clearance like you said, and a third with any expected EDCTs.

That fltplan.com really is one stop shopping. Everything the IFR pilot needs in one easy spot.
Click to expand...

However, it's not foolproof. Going from OWD to CJR it just spit out exactly what I filed as my expected route. Calling OWD ground for my clearance gave me a "That's not going to work, got your pencil ready?"
 
flyingron said:
However, it's not foolproof. Going from OWD to CJR it just spit out exactly what I filed as my expected route. Calling OWD ground for my clearance gave me a "That's not going to work, got your pencil ready?"
Click to expand...


Huh, I don't think that's ever happened to me. To be fair though, whatever caused that to happen to you would probably have happened if you were checking flightaware too. Same data source for both sites I imagine.
 
flyingron said:
However, it's not foolproof. Going from OWD to CJR it just spit out exactly what I filed as my expected route. Calling OWD ground for my clearance gave me a "That's not going to work, got your pencil ready?"
Click to expand...

Yep -- that's pretty much what happened to me. Both FltPlan and Flightaware was showing a "cleared route" for what I filed both in and out of NYC. Yet, when I called C/D, it was completely different (except for the origin and destination :)). Nearly everywhere else I've tried that trick, it works -- file, look it up, and have exactly what C/D will give you read to you when you call... Prior to this trip, I could count on one hand the number of times that trick has not worked.
 
I pretty much filed V3 (which passes right over OWD) to MRB. This appears to be a perfectly reasonable route which avoids the entire NY terminal area. And sure enough FltPlan sent that back as the likely route.

The actual clearance was BOSOX followed by a few other random fixes to CCC to pick up V16 right over Kennedy down to Maryland than more random fixes (including IAD, the airport mind you, not the AML VOR).
 
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