"Speed enforced by aircraft" budget cuts

[Jim Logajan]

States that used to use aircraft to catch speeders appear to be shutting those programs down or scaling them way back, citing costs, though Ohio and Florida still appear to be issuing a lot of tickets based on air observations:

http://news.yahoo.com/states-trim-planes-speed-traps-160535486.html

I suppose Ohio or Florida speeders might consider using a Zaon MRX along with a radar detector. :wink2:

 

[Morne]

I have seen OSHP birds parked at my home field. I have also received tickets from the bear in the air.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I have seen OSHP birds parked at my home field. I have also received tickets from the bear in the air.

More correctly, as a result of the bear in the air. I have yet to see a CHP 210 parked on the side of a road while the pilot issues a citation to a motorist.

 

[Red Air Rambo]

Easy ticket to beat...both the pilot and the ticketing officer must show up...chances of that are very low.

 

[Geico266]

I like flying low over I80. Freaks speeders out.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

 

[N801BH]

States that used to use aircraft to catch speeders appear to be shutting those programs down or scaling them way back, citing costs, though Ohio and Florida still appear to be issuing a lot of tickets based on air observations:

http://news.yahoo.com/states-trim-planes-speed-traps-160535486.html

I suppose Ohio or Florida speeders might consider using a Zaon MRX along with a radar detector. :wink2:

Geez..... One of the first things I figured out when driving is to look for strange and unusual stripes placed on the road... Ie... your driving down a turnpike and there are stripes placed 1/4 mile apart.... They are timing lines guys /gals...... In fact there have been times when I have seen the spotter plane and purposely sped for 3/4 of the length only to really slow down to get the the time within legal specs.... the guys in the plane were probably licking their chops thinking they had a sure deal speeding ticket...... I would always wave at the police who where positioned" around the corner" as they were pi$$ed but had no case against me....

That sneaky crap cuts both ways ya know.

 

[Alexb2000]

This is all such theater.

Why sell vehicles that more than double the highest speed limit in the land, if the "goal" is safety?

How about just having toll tag gates that take pictures and mail tickets to every speeder, just like the red light cameras? Or Arizona's ticket trailers?

The only answer I can think of is that law enforcement doesn't want to give up gravel throwing burnouts, flying airplanes and copters, and the high speed chase.

Neither would I, but building a cost justification model is just crap.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Easy ticket to beat...both the pilot and the ticketing officer must show up...chances of that are very low.

By California law, the arresting officer must show up. That may be different than the "citing officer", who is normally the one that runs chase in the Crown Vic for a radar trap or aerial pursuit. Meaning, that the pilot (or "arresting officer" passenger) has to show up in court.

I'll take that scenario any day of the week.

 

[Ted]

This is all such theater.

Why sell vehicles that more than double the highest speed limit in the land, if the "goal" is safety?

How about just having toll tag gates that take pictures and mail tickets to every speeder, just like the red light cameras? Or Arizona's ticket trailers?

The only answer I can think of is that law enforcement doesn't want to give up gravel throwing burnouts, flying airplanes and copters, and the high speed chase.

Neither would I, but building a cost justification model is just crap.

I'd be careful saying that too loudly. In many places, they are getting to the point where they are simply mailing out tickets in the mail. It started with red light cameras, and now some areas are doing it with speeding. Europe has speed cameras in a number of places. We don't want that to happen here.

Cops need to catch you in the act. Otherwise, it's Big Brother society. Best to fight that off as long as we can.

 

[Captain]

I once ran into a couple cop pilots in their C172 just after they returned from 'sky ticketing'. We were all just sorta sitting around so I started asking him questions about what they do. He was very talkative so the conversation went for quite awhile.

I think I started it off with, 'So...do you think the tickets you write actually cover the cost of the operation?'

He looked at his partner and they both shared a look as they smiled and nodded. After talking for awhile it was apparant that they covered the cost by A LOT. Using his numbers he said the minimum he's ever spent timing speeders averaged out to North of $20,000 per hour.

The two of them worked as a team with 6 or more cruisers on the ground to write tickets to who ever they radioed to go get. One guy (the guy I was talking to) was the pilot and the other sat there with a board of timers (six I think) and timed the cars up to six at a time and did the paperwork and they shared the radio (I think).

Anyway, it was quite the operation. The plane and the cops would work the road North, radioing and timing and writing tickets until after awhile they'd get to a turn around and then they'd work the road South.

He was careful to point out that the spirit was not revenue generation, rather highway safety...but it was obvious they had a license to print money from the way he told the story.

He did say the flight budget came straight out of the funds they generated and the rest went to the State, which was Millions a year.

 

[steingar]

I once ran into a couple cop pilots in their C172 just after they returned from 'sky ticketing'. We were all just sorta sitting around so I started asking him questions about what they do. He was very talkative so the conversation went for quite awhile.

I think I started it off with, 'So...do you think the tickets you write actually cover the cost of the operation?'

He looked at his partner and they both shared a look as they smiled and nodded. After talking for awhile it was apparant that they covered the cost by A LOT. Using his numbers he said the minimum he's ever spent timing speeders averaged out to North of $20,000 per hour.

The California motorcycle cop said he could hand out speeding citations continuously all day long. All he had to do was pull up to the motorist and read the offending speedometer. Way cheaper than aircraft, sorry.

Cops love their toys. We recently had the first income tax increase in my town in a generation. The local government sobbed they'd have to lay off police and firemen. No one said anything of selling any of the fleet of half-dozen helicopters maintained by our little one-hourse town.

 

[wsuffa]

This is all such theater.

Why sell vehicles that more than double the highest speed limit in the land, if the "goal" is safety?

Ah, yes, the "Yugos for All" argument. I've driven a rental truck with a governor on it. It wouldn't make it up some hills. Also had a MB in Europe that had a speed limiter. Had trouble on the highways.

How about just having toll tag gates that take pictures and mail tickets to every speeder, just like the red light cameras? Or Arizona's ticket trailers?

Washington, DC and the Maryland suburbs are rife with those cameras and they're adding more. We're talking tens of millions in revenue a year, expected to hit $100 million. It's about revenue generation, not safety, as some folks slam on their brakes when they approach the camera zone, causing wrecks or near wrecks.

In one Maryland suburb they placed two cameras a quarter mile apart hoping to catch folks who sped up after passing the first one. And it's been documented that with some red-light cameras that the local government (who gets the revenue) shortened the yellow cycle below state standards with the hope of getting more revenue.

Lots of ability for abuse.

BTW, Europe has had speed cameras for years on some of the highways. 10+ years ago I remember seeing them in the Netherlands. The US will be like Europe if this keeps up.

The only answer I can think of is that law enforcement doesn't want to give up gravel throwing burnouts, flying airplanes and copters, and the high speed chase.

Neither would I, but building a cost justification model is just crap.

While some states still use "muscle cars" as police cruisers, many localities are headed a more econo route.

 

[Skylane81E]

Last I heard the OHP aviation program was operated off of confiscated funds.

 

[steingar]

Last I heard the OHP aviation program was operated off of confiscated funds.

My point was they could easily confiscate just as much sans airplane. Hell, the Calfornia cops didn't ever have radar!

Moreover, the presence of marked police vehicles also increases highway safety, since everyone slows down when they see a cop. If the object is really highway safety, police cruisers are the better investment. The only advantage of the aircraft is it isn't easily seen by most motorists. They way most folks drive, I doubt LEOs have any trouble at all giving out speeding tickets.

 

[bflynn]

Easy ticket to beat...both the pilot and the ticketing officer must show up...chances of that are very low.

But there's always the chance that the judge will just continue the case to summon the offices back in two weeks. Just because an officer doesn't show up in court doesn't mean you're off.

 

[Alexb2000]

Ah, yes, the "Yugos for All" argument. I've driven a rental truck with a governor on it. It wouldn't make it up some hills. Also had a MB in Europe that had a speed limiter. Had trouble on the highways.



Washington, DC and the Maryland suburbs are rife with those cameras and they're adding more. We're talking tens of millions in revenue a year, expected to hit $100 million. It's about revenue generation, not safety, as some folks slam on their brakes when they approach the camera zone, causing wrecks or near wrecks.

In one Maryland suburb they placed two cameras a quarter mile apart hoping to catch folks who sped up after passing the first one. And it's been documented that with some red-light cameras that the local government (who gets the revenue) shortened the yellow cycle below state standards with the hope of getting more revenue.

Lots of ability for abuse.

BTW, Europe has had speed cameras for years on some of the highways. 10+ years ago I remember seeing them in the Netherlands. The US will be like Europe if this keeps up.


While some states still use "muscle cars" as police cruisers, many localities are headed a more econo route.

Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating a police state with everyone driving Yugos. Only that we drop this pitiful charade, keep the "game" fair, and let's have some fun out there. If you can't afford a ticket, then drive the speed limit, simple.

If the police really wanted to stop dangerous driving, ticket the 400 lb. woman in the fast lane going 45 on cruise, with a breakfast burrito on her lap, and a hard back book on the dash.

Some time back, my wife and I bought a CL500 in VA. We flew out and had to drive it back to Texas in a weekend. Anyway, I got stopped doing 120+ about 6 am in TN. I thought I was going to jail. Cop wrote me a ticket, I paid it. Thankfully I was spared the "safety" talk. That's the way it should be, a simple tax transaction.

 

[Bob Noel]

My point was they could easily confiscate just as much sans airplane. Hell, the Calfornia cops didn't ever have radar!

Moreover, the presence of marked police vehicles also increases highway safety, since everyone slows down when they see a cop. If the object is really highway safety, police cruisers are the better investment. The only advantage of the aircraft is it isn't easily seen by most motorists. They way most folks drive, I doubt LEOs have any trouble at all giving out speeding tickets.

changing speeds and having a mix of different speeds actually creates risks and decreases safety.

 

[roncachamp]

But there's always the chance that the judge will just continue the case to summon the offices back in two weeks. Just because an officer doesn't show up in court doesn't mean you're off.

It does in Illinois. The nonappearance of the arresting officer is not grounds for a continuance. Of course, you do have to know that going in.

 

[poadeleted21]

changing speeds and having a mix of different speeds actually creates risks and decreases safety.

I find it hilarious to see a cop at 65MPH on the highway with 2 miles of traffic backed up behind him.

 

[Alexb2000]

I'd be careful saying that too loudly. In many places, they are getting to the point where they are simply mailing out tickets in the mail. It started with red light cameras, and now some areas are doing it with speeding. Europe has speed cameras in a number of places. We don't want that to happen here.

Cops need to catch you in the act. Otherwise, it's Big Brother society. Best to fight that off as long as we can.

I could scream it from the top of every building it wouldn't matter. The technology exists to stop speeding , it will never be emplemented because of the revenue stream. What the government wants is just enough odds of getting away with it so that people speed, if people give up, bye-bye revenue.

In my city they put red light cameras on every corner for "safety", they were so effective that no one even chances running a late yellow. Now they are talking about shutting them down, because they cost more to operate than they bring in. What about "safety"?

 

[Anthony]

Well, their job is now expanding to anti-terror security as the various state, and local PD's partner with the TSA on traffic stops. That's one way to justify all the SWAT equipment they now have.

Bring back Barney Fife, and his green bullet!

 

[wsuffa]

Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating a police state with everyone driving Yugos. Only that we drop this pitiful charade, keep the "game" fair, and let's have some fun out there. If you can't afford a ticket, then drive the speed limit, simple.

"Fair" is whatever one defines as "fair". Just look at the tax debate over "fair share" where everyone has a different idea of what fair taxation is... (and I stop there because I don't want to send this to the Spin Zone.)

If the police really wanted to stop dangerous driving, ticket the 400 lb. woman in the fast lane going 45 on cruise, with a breakfast burrito on her lap, and a hard back book on the dash.

yeah, that's a problem - as is the woman or guy texting someone while going 70 on the highway.

Some time back, my wife and I bought a CL500 in VA. We flew out and had to drive it back to Texas in a weekend. Anyway, I got stopped doing 120+ about 6 am in TN. I thought I was going to jail. Cop wrote me a ticket, I paid it. Thankfully I was spared the "safety" talk. That's the way it should be, a simple tax transaction.

The real issue is someone who is driving at a radically different speed than the rest of traffic. That applies to the clown that thinks it's a good idea to get in the left lane and drive 45 in a 70 zone.... and it applies to the guy who weaved his way at 120 MPH through DC Beltway traffic yesterday that was moving at 50 due to congestion. I got no issue with someone doing 70 when traffic is moving in a range of 65 to 75.

 

[Keith Lane]

Easy ticket to beat...both the pilot and the ticketing officer must show up...chances of that are very low.

Not so in Florida at least. When I bought into my plane, it was with a Florida State Trooper (call sign "Predator") as co-owner/CFI that was the "Bear in the Air" operating out of KPCM, Plant City Florida. We went up in what is now my plane and he demonstrated (without anybody on the ground to write people up) how he did his job. He did have to go to court occasionally when somebody hired a lawyer to contest the ticket. The shorthand notes he took while watching you enter and exit the "box", the area between the stripes on the roadway were all the evidence he needed. He had, at that time never been overruled in a court appearance, in 5+ years of doing this. Also, he took me on a pot hunting trip. Amazing how much of a blue tint pot plants had in a cornfield. Once, out of habit, he put in his squawk code and as soon as we were airborne, Tampa approach asked "are you airborne, Predator?".

I once ran into a couple cop pilots in their C172 just after they returned from 'sky ticketing'. We were all just sorta sitting around so I started asking him questions about what they do. He was very talkative so the conversation went for quite awhile.

I think I started it off with, 'So...do you think the tickets you write actually cover the cost of the operation?'

He looked at his partner and they both shared a look as they smiled and nodded. After talking for awhile it was apparant that they covered the cost by A LOT. Using his numbers he said the minimum he's ever spent timing speeders averaged out to North of $20,000 per hour.

The two of them worked as a team with 6 or more cruisers on the ground to write tickets to who ever they radioed to go get. One guy (the guy I was talking to) was the pilot and the other sat there with a board of timers (six I think) and timed the cars up to six at a time and did the paperwork and they shared the radio (I think).

Anyway, it was quite the operation. The plane and the cops would work the road North, radioing and timing and writing tickets until after awhile they'd get to a turn around and then they'd work the road South.

He was careful to point out that the spirit was not revenue generation, rather highway safety...but it was obvious they had a license to print money from the way he told the story.

He did say the flight budget came straight out of the funds they generated and the rest went to the State, which was Millions a year.

The trooper, described above told me that on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando was virtually all construction zone, and the fines were always doubled as a result. Minimum $525 at that time. $250 X 2, plus $25 in admin fees. The state of Florida got the $25 and the county where the ticket was issued got the rest. A money loser unless you were really writing tix. They could do about 50/hour with 6 patrol cars on the ground.

 

[rainsux]

> Once, out of habit, he put in his squawk code and as soon as we were
> airborne, Tampa approach asked "are you airborne, Predator?"

The magic squawk codes are wonderful.

 

[jason]

 

[Anthony]

I hear the police are going to.................DRONES to do this type of enforcement.

 

[Alexb2000]

Ok. Is it crazy to say that, "speeding" is part of our culture? I mean when we start talking about drones, cameras, lasers, etc., that just doesn't sound American to me. Let's keep it the old way, cops having to be sneaky, and us "law breakers" having a little thrill trying not to get caught. Try driving 55 on the Interstate today, you can't do it, but it was Nation wide law for a long time. Just listen to Brad Paisley's Mr. Policeman, that should bring back memories of being a teenager (even just wishful thinking memories)?

My favorite ride back then:

1968 Firebird 400 Ram Air, 400 HP, triple black, Cragars w/Radial T/A's, no seat belts....

Good Times.

Here's the Brad Paisley song if you have no idea what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT9UCH2koIU

 

[Captain]

55 mph was never a nation wide law. But the US Government would withold federal dollars to any state that had a limit above 55 mph. Subtle differance I know, but in the end the decision to post highway speed always laid with the state.

 

[Anthony]

55 mph was never a nation wide law. But the US Government would withold federal dollars to any state that had a limit above 55 mph. Subtle differance I know, but in the end the decision to post highway speed always laid with the state.

Now you sound like a politician.


When I pushed the throttles forward they didn't respond, but only because ALPA.........

 

[MassPilot]

 

[Alexb2000]

55 mph was never a nation wide law. But the US Government would withold federal dollars to any state that had a limit above 55 mph. Subtle differance I know, but in the end the decision to post highway speed always laid with the state.

Come on brother, that's what you got from that post?

Pilots really love picking a nit, means you're legit.

 

[hopmedic]

Ok. Is it crazy to say that, "speeding" is part of our culture? I mean when we start talking about drones, cameras, lasers, etc., that just doesn't sound American to me. Let's keep it the old way, cops having to be sneaky, and us "law breakers" having a little thrill trying not to get caught. Try driving 55 on the Interstate today, you can't do it, but it was Nation wide law for a long time. Just listen to Brad Paisley's Mr. Policeman, that should bring back memories of being a teenager (even just wishful thinking memories)?

My favorite ride back then:

1968 Firebird 400 Ram Air, 400 HP, triple black, Cragars w/Radial T/A's, no seat belts....

Good Times.

Here's the Brad Paisley song if you have no idea what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT9UCH2koIU

Yeah... The only place I can do the speed limit on the interstates around here without getting run over is where the limit is 70. And going through Atlanta, unless there's a wreck, often you need to go 65-70 just so keep from being a bug in someone's grill, and it's posted 55.

I used to lock the cruise at a minimum of 10 over. Never got a ticket because I had a paramedic sticker in the window. But in the past few years (haven't been a paramedic for 12, tho) I have slowed it down. Now I'm usually only 2-4 over. And yes, I use the right lane unless I'm passing, or if the traffic is heavy enough that it doesn't matter.

 

[denverpilot]

Speed limit or five over for me. Never block the left lane. Set the cruise and watch the idiots.

Very relaxing. Especially with some good tunes. Maybe a nice chat on the ham radio. Life's too short to let highway driving be yet another stupid competition.

Usually end up next to the lane dodgers at the exit ramp stop light. Smile and wave. People can't do time/speed/distance math.

All the way across a metropolis, 10 MPH faster, how much sooner do y'all get there than me?

Figure it out. It's enlightening.

 

[steingar]

Dime over, always. Old motorcycle habit, you can watch to the idiots in front of you way easier than those on your six. People are more likely to notice a moving target as well, old neuronal wiring inherited from the dinosaurs.

 

[Anthony]

I survived motorcycle riding for 20 some years by always having a buffer zone around me, getting away from traffic even if it meant speeding, and learning to expect drivers to run lights, stop signs, pull out in front of me, etc. Anticipating all these bone head moves is the only thing that keeps you alive, and even then its still "interesting" sometimes.

 

[steingar]

I survived motorcycle riding for 20 some years by always having a buffer zone around me, getting away from traffic even if it meant speeding, and learning to expect drivers to run lights, stop signs, pull out in front of me, etc. Anticipating all these bone head moves is the only thing that keeps you alive, and even then its still "interesting" sometimes.

 

[Ted]

Ok. Is it crazy to say that, "speeding" is part of our culture? I mean when we start talking about drones, cameras, lasers, etc., that just doesn't sound American to me. Let's keep it the old way, cops having to be sneaky, and us "law breakers" having a little thrill trying not to get caught. Try driving 55 on the Interstate today, you can't do it, but it was Nation wide law for a long time. Just listen to Brad Paisley's Mr. Policeman, that should bring back memories of being a teenager (even just wishful thinking memories)?

My favorite ride back then:

1968 Firebird 400 Ram Air, 400 HP, triple black, Cragars w/Radial T/A's, no seat belts....

Good Times.

Here's the Brad Paisley song if you have no idea what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT9UCH2koIU

In college, my hot rod was an '82 Jaguar XJ-S V12 that I'd hot rodded. Comfortable speed for it was 90-120 mph, and it wasn't very happy any slower. So, I got a lot of speeding tickets. I got away with a lot, and that was part of the older culture. Cops have to work for their pay, and it's a business transaction. Speed limits, as we know, aren't about safety - they're about revenue generation. My XJ-S was very safe at its high speeds.

I have slowed down a good bit on the road vs. then, since now my road travel is typically on a looser schedule (and my current vehicles aren't happy going as fast). But on a motorcycle, you definitely want to be faster than the others if you can be - easier to keep an eye on people ahead, and also easier to slow down if needed. Harder to speed up for people behind you (that are also harder to keep an eye on).

 

[Tom-D]

Vehicles over 10,000# or towing in combination, in most western states are restricted to 60 MPH, I set the Coach to 60 and put it on cruise, and the tranny in economy mode and let it run. doing that will give me 10.5 MPG. When I run 65-70 I get 6-7 MPG.

Over a 12 hour day the guys doing 70 are 120 miles ahead of me. or 2 hours travel time.

 

[hopmedic]

Speed limit or five over for me. Never block the left lane. Set the cruise and watch the idiots.

Very relaxing. Especially with some good tunes. Maybe a nice chat on the ham radio. Life's too short to let highway driving be yet another stupid competition.

Usually end up next to the lane dodgers at the exit ramp stop light. Smile and wave. People can't do time/speed/distance math.

All the way across a metropolis, 10 MPH faster, how much sooner do y'all get there than me?

Figure it out. It's enlightening.

Yeah. For me it's podcasts. Most of the stuff on the radio is just noise anyway. Why not use that hour commute to learn something?