Rudder Trim out of whack

MadseasoN

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MadseasoN
I flew a Cherokee 235 last Saturday down to Port Aransas, TX. The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

The ball was about halfway on the right line. What would you guys do? Hold the right rudder to center the ball (for an hour) or just leave it off center and fly crooked?

Please don't say 'turn the rudder trim'. That's too easy.
 
I don't understand why you would not set the rudder trim. Maybe I'm missing something. So my answer would have to be, "neither."
 
I flew a Cherokee 235 last Saturday down to Port Aransas, TX. The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

The ball was about halfway on the right line. What would you guys do? Hold the right rudder to center the ball (for an hour) or just leave it off center and fly crooked?

Please don't say 'turn the rudder trim'. That's too easy.


Okay...um, open the door?
 
I flew a Cherokee 235 last Saturday down to Port Aransas, TX. The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

The ball was about halfway on the right line. What would you guys do? Hold the right rudder to center the ball (for an hour) or just leave it off center and fly crooked?

Please don't say 'turn the rudder trim'. That's too easy.

That's why they provided the ability to adjust the rudder trim.
 
I'd hold right rudder the whole time - I like to be as uncomfortable flying as possible. :)
 
The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

You DO switch tanks and set the mixture and use carb heat, don't you? What's wrong with using ALL the controls?

Dan
 
Let me back up and throw a different scenario at you since the question escaped several people.

Let's say that you're in a C152 and the little bendable rudder tab is out of whack (no rudder trim on board). Would you hold the ball centered or just fly crooked? Obviously it's not efficient to fly crooked, but what would you lose? TAS? This actually happened to me too. And don't say "I would land and adjust the trim tab". The owners' don't allow us to adjust the tab.
 
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That little tiny tab on the back of the rudder would not be able to get the ball half scale deflection. But if it was out of center I wouldn't be the good pilot that I am unless I held the rudder for the flight.
 
For a Cherokee the correct answer is to step on the ball until it is centered and while holding that rudder pressure spin the rudder trim untill resistance is felt and the rudder pressure decreases. Release rudder and now you're trimmed.
 
Let me back up and throw a different scenario at you since the question escaped several people.

Let's say that you're in a C152 and the little bendable rudder tab is out of whack (no rudder trim on board). Would you hold the ball centered or just fly crooked? Obviously it's not efficient to fly crooked, but what would you lose? TAS? This actually happened to me too. And don't say "I would land and adjust the trim tab". The owners' don't allow us to adjust the tab.

Who didn't your question escape?
 
Mad, your question is confusing. Are you asking about a Cherokee 235 or a C152? People are telling you the answer based on the OP.
Now if you question has changed to a 152 with no rudder trim in the cockpit then the answer will be different. So which question do you want answered?
 
Who didn't your question escape?

Shouldn't you be coloring or watching cartoons? If you can't add to the conversation then do the world a favor and save some bandwidth.

Mad, your question is confusing. Are you asking about a Cherokee 235 or a C152? People are telling you the answer based on the OP.
Now if you question has changed to a 152 with no rudder trim in the cockpit then the answer will be different. So which question do you want answered?

I guess my basic question is what am I losing by not flying with the rudder in trim? The plane still flew wings level without much input from me.
 
I flew a Cherokee 235 last Saturday down to Port Aransas, TX. The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

The ball was about halfway on the right line. What would you guys do? Hold the right rudder to center the ball (for an hour) or just leave it off center and fly crooked?

Please don't say 'turn the rudder trim'. That's too easy.

OK, I went back to read the original post - curious to see what everybody was missing.

So, you flew to Port Aransas, TX ... Are you the IDIOT who locked the keys in Jay's courtesy car, VICTIMIZING his current guest?
 
Shouldn't you be coloring or watching cartoons? If you can't add to the conversation then do the world a favor and save some bandwidth.

Why are you being a prick? NOBODY understands your post.
 
I dont understand the hostility to the responses in this thread. You asked what we would do.

We would adjust the rudder trim. Why wouldnt you?


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The Cherokee 235 does have a cockpit-adjustable rudder trim, right?

Dan
 
If I walk up to a fixed tab plane that is obviously set for pattern work and I was renting it for a cross country I would definitely adjust as I consider appropriate on pre-flight; if I don't get it quite right I rest my foot/feet as required.
 
The main reason you keep it straight is because it's the correct thing to do. The secondary reason is that if you don't your passengers are much more likely to reward you with a spewing forth of vomit.
 
i would think there would be a small amount of extra drag compromising your airspeed but nothing considerable. if you hadn't flown in a while, i could understand not wanting to do stalls or lazy 8s but trim the rudder??
 
What's really annoying is when the nosewheel springs on the Eaglets get out of whack...you can't adjust anything in the cockpit and the rudder trim tab on the back doesn't do a whole lot.
 
Rudder trim isn't necessary. You don't use it when you're maneuvering. But damn if it isn't nice to have when you are on a long climb up to 10k feet. I'll use it on most flights where I leave the pattern. Reset it to neutral as part of your before landing checks. It isn't a true trim in the Cardinal or other single engine Cessnas to my knowledge. It just exerts spring pressure on the pedals. I don't know how Piper's rudder trim works.
 
Rudder trim isn't necessary. You don't use it when you're maneuvering. But damn if it isn't nice to have when you are on a long climb up to 10k feet. I'll use it on most flights where I leave the pattern. Reset it to neutral as part of your before landing checks. It isn't a true trim in the Cardinal or other single engine Cessnas to my knowledge. It just exerts spring pressure on the pedals. I don't know how Piper's rudder trim works.

Thanks. Im not sure either. And that was most of the reason why I didn't want to fool with the rudder trim during this flight. I wasn't sure if would need to adjust it again before landing.
 
Thanks. Im not sure either. And that was most of the reason why I didn't want to fool with the rudder trim during this flight. I wasn't sure if would need to adjust it again before landing.

Why don't you go find someone who can give you a thorough checkout in the airplane because it is obvious you didn't get one. Don't be satisfied flying around uncoordinated. Also rudder trim is necessary in bigger airplanes so learn how to use it as it makes flying easier. Part of the pre landing checklist on the SNJ, Avenger and Mustang is to put the rudder trim in the take off position in case of a go around. Don
 
Why don't you go find someone who can give you a thorough checkout in the airplane because it is obvious you didn't get one. Don't be satisfied flying around uncoordinated. Also rudder trim is necessary in bigger airplanes so learn how to use it as it makes flying easier. Part of the pre landing checklist on the SNJ, Avenger and Mustang is to put the rudder trim in the take off position in case of a go around. Don

Next time I fly my Mustang I'll be sure to check the rudder trim. :)

I guess you could include rudder trim under the "trim tab set" item in the checklist but it doesn't explicitly mention this.
 
Thanks. Im not sure either. And that was most of the reason why I didn't want to fool with the rudder trim during this flight. I wasn't sure if would need to adjust it again before landing.

I would suggest some study time with the PoH. It is always good to understand how your aircraft's systems work.
 
Thanks. Im not sure either. And that was most of the reason why I didn't want to fool with the rudder trim during this flight. I wasn't sure if would need to adjust it again before landing.

So you never got a high performance checkout is what you are saying. If you had been given one you would understand that you will change rudder trim as demand requires same as elevator trim; it's one of the key elements to High Performance.
 
I flew a Cherokee 235 last Saturday down to Port Aransas, TX. The rudder trim was off but I hadn't flown in awhile and I didn't want to fool with it.

The ball was about halfway on the right line. What would you guys do? Hold the right rudder to center the ball (for an hour) or just leave it off center and fly crooked?

Please don't say 'turn the rudder trim'. That's too easy.

Answering in the spirit it was asked, I think I would hold rudder.

My understanding of the spirit being that you get in an airplane you are not all that familiar with. You see it has rudder trim but are not quite sure of what to do with it so you decide to leave it alone.

I would obviously feel remiss that I had not adequately familiarized myself with the airplane before climbing in and would be sure to do so at my earliest opportunity but for the first time and given that the die is cast, I would likely hold rudder.
 
So you never got a high performance checkout is what you are saying. If you had been given one you would understand that you will change rudder trim as demand requires same as elevator trim; it's one of the key elements to High Performance.

I never said that. I'm not sure that I can agree with that statement about the key element to HP. Can you provide some documentation?

Edit: You're probably right in that it's a key element in HP operation but I'm not sure that it's required as much as elevator trim is. I think it depends on the plane.
 
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I think Henning is saying Proper HP checkout. Don't feel burned. You don't know what you don't know. A humble attitude is the fix for the situation.
 
I hate to beat this to death.
Mad, are you asking about the 235 specifically or are you asking about something like a C152? It does matter. In any high performance airplane, the rudder trim IS to be used in flight similar to elevator trim. You will need a different elevator trim and a different rudder trim in climb as opposed to cruise. What Henning and others are saying its use is part of the basic check out.

IF your question is "should I use the in the cockpit rudder trim to keep the plane coordinated", the answer is "of course".

If you are talking about a trainer aircraft with only a trim tab that has to be bent on the ground then of course the answer is different.

Again, what "specifically" are you asking?
 
To the OP - Given the scarsity of single-engine airplanes with rudder trim, it's no wonder so few people know how to use it properly. Allow me to explain: If you poke your nose around the Cherokees' little rudder trim adjuster gismo in the cockpit, (down on the floor, between the rudder pedals, if my memory serves) you'll probably see that it has a marked 'takeoff' range...just like most elevator trim wheels. So, just set it for takeoff already. After takeoff, once you're in a nicely (elevator-trimmed, steady speed) climb, you'll probably notice you have to hold - some - rudder pedal pressure to accomodate the outrageous P-factor produced by that monster 235hp engine. You know, just enough pedal pressure to keep the airplane pointing straight, like it's on rails. Note: if a wing feels heavy, it's probably because you aren't holding enough rudder. Could even be left rudder, if you've put too much righ rudder trim prior to takeoff. With me so far? So, while you're keeping the airplane straight, while looking over the nose, slowly reach down - don't look at it, keep looking over the nose - and turn that little black knob so as to reduce what little rudder pressure you're holding on the pedal to zero. Just like you do with the elevator trim...while you're holding the airplane steady, slowly trim the pressure out of the controls. Contrary to some of my fellow posters, I am not a big proponent of using the ball...it can lead you astray. If the wings of the airplane are level - zero bank - AND the heading is constant, the ball should be dead nuts center...if it isn't, the ball is wrong.
 
Re: Thread Title

If the aircraft was flying straight, ball centered with no rudder needed, why don't we say that it's in whack? Why can things only be "out of whack" but never "in whack"?
 
Re: Thread Title

If the aircraft was flying straight, ball centered with no rudder needed, why don't we say that it's in whack? Why can things only be "out of whack" but never "in whack"?

Hmm, I guess for "out of whack", we could also say it is "whack off". :D
 
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