Is this normal, or kind of a jerk move?

[DaleB]

After joining the flying club and my last CFI being gone for two weeks, I've started flying with a CFI who is also a club member. This avoids some insurance and paperwork hassles, his availability matches mine better, and he's got a lot of experience instructing. My last guy had me do touch & gos for something like 7 hours solid before finally signing me off for solo flying. So I'm flying a 172 now instead of Cherokees, and it looks like we'll be finishing up over the next couple of weeks.

Tonight we were going to knock out the dual X/C, dual night and dual night landings in one shot. As it happens we made a no-go call due to weather. No biggie. But as we're at the FBO going over the route and all, my last CFI shows up. We say hello, etc. He asks if I'll be flying with my new CFI from now on, I tell him yes. He asks to see my logbook. I was busy with other stuff and kind of wondered why, but slid it down the counter. Next thing I know, he's scratched out the PA-28 solo endorsement on my medical and voided the solo endorsements he signed in the back of my logbook.

To borrow a phrase from Captain... is this guy a jerk? Or is that something that's common? Kind of ****ed me off, to be honest. My current CFI kind of looked puzzled and wondered why the hell he'd have done that, said he'd never heard of it.

 

[Everskyward]

My current CFI kind of looked puzzled and wondered why the hell he'd have done that, said he'd never heard of it.

I haven't heard of it either but I haven't heard of many things I read about here...

 

[alfadog]

Teach you to give someone your logbook without knowing why they want it.

Though IANACFI but I kinda see his point and would have no huge problem with it if I were in your shoes.

edit: I do think he sounds a bit of a jerk for the way he handled it but we only have one side here.

 

[Henning]

, he's scratched out the PA-28 solo endorsement on my medical and voided the solo endorsements he signed in the back of my logbook.

I guess it would depend on the instructor, he sounds like a CYA kinda guy so I'm not sure I'd read anything into it other than since you are now the other guys student he doesn't want any potential future liability issues, not that I'd really care either way. Since you aren't flying the Cherokee anymore and you have a different instructor, it makes no difference to you. Just continue on realizing some people just do weird things.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sounds kinda jerky to me... Have you given him any reason to do such a thing other than switching instructors?

 

[MickYoumans]

To borrow a phrase from Captain... is this guy a jerk? Or is that something that's common? Kind of ****ed me off, to be honest. My current CFI kind of looked puzzled and wondered why the hell he'd have done that, said he'd never heard of it.

Yes, he is a first class jerk!
No, it is not common. I've NEVER heard of that ever happening before.
You have a right to be upset.
Sounds like in the long run you will be better off with the new instructor.
I know its not very ethical but is it even legal for him to scratch out a previous endorsement like that?

 

[DaleB]

Sounds kinda jerky to me... Have you given him any reason to do such a thing other than switching instructors?

Nope.

I guess it's not a big deal, really. I just wish he hadn't trashed up the medical and logbook in the process. It looks bad, and given the amount of time, work and money it's cost to get here I kind of take pride in them.

 

[Henning]

Nope.

I guess it's not a big deal, really. I just wish he hadn't trashed up the medical and logbook in the process. It looks bad, and given the amount of time, work and money it's cost to get here I kind of take pride in them.

I remember when I took pride in my log book, that turned into a chore really quick though. Now I'm lucky if I remember to scratch the flights in.

 

[jesse]

After joining the flying club and my last CFI being gone for two weeks, I've started flying with a CFI who is also a club member. This avoids some insurance and paperwork hassles, his availability matches mine better, and he's got a lot of experience instructing. My last guy had me do touch & gos for something like 7 hours solid before finally signing me off for solo flying. So I'm flying a 172 now instead of Cherokees, and it looks like we'll be finishing up over the next couple of weeks.

Tonight we were going to knock out the dual X/C, dual night and dual night landings in one shot. As it happens we made a no-go call due to weather. No biggie. But as we're at the FBO going over the route and all, my last CFI shows up. We say hello, etc. He asks if I'll be flying with my new CFI from now on, I tell him yes. He asks to see my logbook. I was busy with other stuff and kind of wondered why, but slid it down the counter. Next thing I know, he's scratched out the PA-28 solo endorsement on my medical and voided the solo endorsements he signed in the back of my logbook.

To borrow a phrase from Captain... is this guy a jerk? Or is that something that's common? Kind of ****ed me off, to be honest. My current CFI kind of looked puzzled and wondered why the hell he'd have done that, said he'd never heard of it.

He is either a jerk or an idiot -- and had no authority to do that to your logbook. The good news is that you now know this and don't have to spend any more time flying with him.

If someone did something destructive like that to my current logbook I'd seriously explore my legal options.

This could cause headache for you in the future.

 

[BillTIZ]

So why was your student certificate/medical in the logbook and not in your pocket?
Yes he's a jerk.
The question remains, does your solo hours from the first endorsement until the new CFI endorsement valid. Your logbook may be evidence against you for unauthorized solo hours?

He and you would have been better off if he asked the new instructor to provide a new solo endorsement as of that date.

My bet, he thinks the new CFI stole his student.

Edit: I'd do a memo for record of the event, your new CFI sign it as a witness, and keep it with the logbook for justification of the solo hours flown.

 

[Old Geek]

Frankly, I'd want a refund for at least 1/2 his hourly rate that he charged you while you were earning those endorsements. Would that be a jerk thing to ask for?

 

[DaleB]

So why was your student certificate/medical in the logbook and not in your pocket?

I have the logbook and the medical cert together in an organizer. Very handy for keeping the bare minimum of what I need to go dual or solo flying in the local area -- logbook, medical, pen, a couple of sectionals.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Next thing I know, he's scratched out the PA-28 solo endorsement on my medical and voided the solo endorsements he signed in the back of my logbook.

Is the solo endorsement still legible?

 

[gismo]

After joining the flying club and my last CFI being gone for two weeks, I've started flying with a CFI who is also a club member. This avoids some insurance and paperwork hassles, his availability matches mine better, and he's got a lot of experience instructing. My last guy had me do touch & gos for something like 7 hours solid before finally signing me off for solo flying. So I'm flying a 172 now instead of Cherokees, and it looks like we'll be finishing up over the next couple of weeks.

Tonight we were going to knock out the dual X/C, dual night and dual night landings in one shot. As it happens we made a no-go call due to weather. No biggie. But as we're at the FBO going over the route and all, my last CFI shows up. We say hello, etc. He asks if I'll be flying with my new CFI from now on, I tell him yes. He asks to see my logbook. I was busy with other stuff and kind of wondered why, but slid it down the counter. Next thing I know, he's scratched out the PA-28 solo endorsement on my medical and voided the solo endorsements he signed in the back of my logbook.

To borrow a phrase from Captain... is this guy a jerk? Or is that something that's common? Kind of ****ed me off, to be honest. My current CFI kind of looked puzzled and wondered why the hell he'd have done that, said he'd never heard of it.

I'd tell the jerk I want my money back that he charged me for instruction. And if he refused I'd take him to conciliation court even if I had no chance to win. He had absolutely no right to do what he did, the logbook, medical and all contained within were your property.

 

[Kelvin]

Jerk move and he did you a favor by showing his true colors before you really needed him...

 

[Palmpilot]

This could cause headache for you in the future.

Is that because it might be interpreted as evidence that the solo time in his logbook was unauthorized?

 

[DaleB]

Is the solo endorsement still legible?

Not really. Signatures, dates, expiration & CFI numbers are scribbled out.

Like I said... I guess it's not a big deal, really. I'm not afraid anyone's going to try and gig me for solo flying without an endorsement, because I did have the endorsement when I flew solo (and it would be easy to prove). The DPE who will be giving me my check ride eventually works out of the FBO, so he knows the instructors... if he's got a problem with it come time for the practical, I'll just have a little powwow with him, the CFI, and the FBO owner.

I may have a private word with the owner one of these days and just ask if that's their policy or something. Maybe they see it as a liability thing, I don't know.

 

[jesse]

Is that because it might be interpreted as evidence that the solo time in his logbook was unauthorized?

Correct. Plus it just looks bad. Damaging to the document as a whole.

Not really. Signatures, dates, expiration & CFI numbers are scribbled out.

Like I said... I guess it's not a big deal, really. I'm not afraid anyone's going to try and gig me for solo flying without an endorsement, because I did have the endorsement when I flew solo (and it would be easy to prove). The DPE who will be giving me my check ride eventually works out of the FBO, so he knows the instructors... if he's got a problem with it come time for the practical, I'll just have a little powwow with him, the CFI, and the FBO owner.

I may have a word with the owner one of these days and just ask if that's their policy or something. Maybe they see it as a liability thing, I don't know.

Things like this aren't a big deal until they are a big deal. Honestly if this happened to me or one of my students I'd be chatting with the FSDO.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Maybe they see it as a liability thing, I don't know.

Still a jerk move. And if the school tries to pull the liability card, I'd be interested in hearing their reasoning and legal references. I'd also want an explanation as to where in their written policies it says their instructors are to cross out endorsements previously made when switching to a new instructor. I've never heard of a CFI doing such a thing.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Definitely a jerk. It does put you in a bad situation trying to explain that your solo hours were legal. I'd call the local FAA FSDO. It's up to you if you want to give him a chance to reconsider his actions before you make the call.

 

[poadeleted20]

Inappropriate, unprofessional behavior. I guess that in the vernacular, that qualifies as "jerk." Possibly illegal, too, as that constitutes altering your logbook and an official Federal document (your medical certificate).

What do do about it?

If he's a CFI in the club, I'd have a talk with the club's officers and/or board of directors with a view to denying him instructing privileges in the club.

You might ask the FSDO what they think about this, including the problem that this creates for any solo flights you made on the strength of those now-deleted endorsements (and yes, that is a big deal if the FAA ever has reason to investigate your qualifications). You might also ask your new CFI if he will be willing to be a witness to the events (which your tale suggests he did) if it comes to that.

 

[DaleB]

Inappropriate, unprofessional behavior. I guess that in the vernacular, that qualifies as "jerk." Possibly illegal, too, as that constitutes altering your logbook and an official Federal document (your medical certificate).

What do do about it?

If he's a CFI in the club, I'd have a talk with the club's officers and/or board of directors with a view to denying him instructing privileges in the club.

You might ask the FSDO what they think about this, including the problem that this creates for any solo flights you made on the strength of those now-deleted endorsements (and yes, that is a big deal if the FAA ever has reason to investigate your qualifications). You might also ask your new CFI if he will be willing to be a witness to the events (which your tale suggests he did) if it comes to that.

He's not a club member, my current guy is. The previous one is an instructor with the FBO/school.

And not to get off topic, but my current guy is a GREAT instructor. I've learned more in the past 2-3 logged dual hours than in the previous 15 or so.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You might ask the FSDO what they think about this, including the problem that this creates for any solo flights you made on the strength of those now-deleted endorsements (and yes, that is a big deal if the FAA ever has reason to investigate your qualifications). You might also ask your new CFI if he will be willing to be a witness to the events (which your tale suggests he did) if it comes to that.

That is exactly what I would do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Fearless Tower]

Correct. Plus it just looks bad. Damaging to the document as a whole.

At a minimum, if you ever get into professional flying and go through the interview process/logbook review, you gonna get questions about it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[murphey]

Inappropriate, unprofessional behavior. I guess that in the vernacular, that qualifies as "jerk." Possibly illegal, too, as that constitutes altering your logbook and an official Federal document (your medical certificate).

What do do about it?

If he's a CFI in the club, I'd have a talk with the club's officers and/or board of directors with a view to denying him instructing privileges in the club.

You might ask the FSDO what they think about this, including the problem that this creates for any solo flights you made on the strength of those now-deleted endorsements (and yes, that is a big deal if the FAA ever has reason to investigate your qualifications). You might also ask your new CFI if he will be willing to be a witness to the events (which your tale suggests he did) if it comes to that.

Just as Dr Bruce is our resident expert in FAA Medical issues, I personally put Ron in the parallel category for flight instruction and dealing with FAA issues. Believe what he says, follow his suggestions.

 

[DaleB]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll chat with the owner first and see if there's a good reason for it, or at least if there is some policy the CFI was following. I'll explain that I am concerned (which I wasn't before, but kind of am now) about its impact on my logged solo PIC hours. If neither a reasonable explanation nor a correction is comes of that, I'll ask the FSDO for their opinion.

I don't want to be a jerk about this, and I certainly do NOT want to stir up trouble with the FBO that I and the rest of the flying club have to deal with permanently. But, if it's wrong, I want it fixed. If it's not, well, OK then. I just don't want to find out that hard way at some future date, when nothing can be done about it.

 

[gprellwitz]

Get the events in writing, now, with witnesses. If this ever becomes a Big Deal in the future, you'll need that documentation, and it probably won't be available then. And yes, what he did was unprofessional and possibly illegal. If he was concerned that you didn't meet the minimum requirements to solo, then he should never have signed you off. Your choosing a different instructor, for whatever reason, has no bearing on your competency as a pilot, and should have no effect on your endorsements. If he's now claiming that you're not competent to solo, then he's stating that he fraudulently signed you off to do so!

 

[jesse]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll chat with the owner first and see if there's a good reason for it, or at least if there is some policy the CFI was following. I'll explain that I am concerned (which I wasn't before, but kind of am now) about its impact on my logged solo PIC hours. If neither a reasonable explanation nor a correction is comes of that, I'll ask the FSDO for their opinion.

I don't want to be a jerk about this, and I certainly do NOT want to stir up trouble with the FBO that I and the rest of the flying club have to deal with permanently. But, if it's wrong, I want it fixed. If it's not, well, OK then. I just don't want to find out that hard way at some future date, when nothing can be done about it.

It'll be interesting to see what the flight school says -- it most certainly is wrong.

 

[gismo]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll chat with the owner first and see if there's a good reason for it, or at least if there is some policy the CFI was following. I'll explain that I am concerned (which I wasn't before, but kind of am now) about its impact on my logged solo PIC hours. If neither a reasonable explanation nor a correction is comes of that, I'll ask the FSDO for their opinion.

I don't want to be a jerk about this, and I certainly do NOT want to stir up trouble with the FBO that I and the rest of the flying club have to deal with permanently. But, if it's wrong, I want it fixed. If it's not, well, OK then. I just don't want to find out that hard way at some future date, when nothing can be done about it.

Good idea about going to the FBO first. I suspect you'll find they are as surprised and unhappy about their CFI's behavior as you (and most of the PoA response). If I were running a flight school I'd definitely want to know about this kind of behavior by my instructors.

 

[jesse]

Good idea about going to the FBO first. I suspect you'll find they are as surprised and unhappy about their CFI's behavior as you (and most of the PoA response). If I were running a flight school I'd definitely want to know about this kind of behavior by my instructors.

Perhaps you should start a school...it'd be a great retirement vehicle.

 

[Jim Logajan]

For what it is worth, Advisory Circular 61-65E says this about endorsements:

"Although section 61.19(b) establishes, in a pertinent part, that a student pilot certificate expires 24 calendar-months from the month in which it is issued, the endorsements on that student pilot certificate are a matter of record indefinitely. The endorsements are required to be updated from “time-to-time” in the student pilot’s logbook to retain solo privileges."
​

 

[DaleB]

Thanks for that reference, Jim. I printed the pertinent pages just in case I need them.

I am pretty sure I was this CFI's first student. He's a freshly minted instructor. I suspected at the time that I was the first one he'd endorsed for solo, and that was confirmed later by someone else. It might explain why we did so many T&Gs, after my previous CFI (at the school that went TU) said he'd sign me off the next time we flew. I suspect he either misunderstood how the solo endorsement works, or misinterpreted either an FAA or flight school rule or policy. I'll give them a chance to correct the situation so my logbook and medical are fixed, and so they don't have this happen to other students. You know, if you screw up and don't know you screwed up, you'll just keep doing it wrong.

 

[denverpilot]

I have the logbook and the medical cert together in an organizer. Very handy for keeping the bare minimum of what I need to go dual or solo flying in the local area -- logbook, medical, pen, a couple of sectionals.

Keep in mind that later on, after you're rated, you will not necessarily want your logbook on board with you unless absolutely necessary. Keep it somewhere safe away from the airplane unless getting endorsements. Same thing with aircraft logs when you buy your first plane.

Transporting them around from place to place is a good way to lose them. So many stories of thefts from cars where the their thought there would be easy to sell electronic goodies in a flight bag.

Both my logbook(s) and my aircraft logs are travelling with me right now because I need them but otherwise they're locked up safe and sound in a fire safe. I log electronically and transfer to the paper for anything that doesn't require a signature under normal non-training-travel circumstances. And the logbooks do NOT stay in the aircraft on an extended trip.

Medical and pilot certificate card in wallet. That's all you need later.

 

[GCA319]

Like Everyone else, I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way, agreed with everyone else on the scenario presented. He destroyed a legal document. That needs to be rectified in your logbook.

Trust me. Fix it. The DPE today paged through every page of all three of my logbooks and asked questions about things that caught his eye that I did in 1992-1994. And he was well within his rights to do so.

I learned the hard way that keeping logbooks correctly is going to happen whether you think you need to or not, back in December when I had to audit 1995 or so to the present.

Use a pencil on the totals line until you're damn sure. I swear to God my 2nd logbook is an utter disaster from one math error in the early 90s that had to be corrected and carried forward on many many pages. Cross outs while keeping the original writing legible and initials next to them and a note at the math error page.

Carting them around also destroys the binding after a while. My 2nd logbook will literally have the guts fall out if it's not in it's protective nylon case.

I've learned to respect the logbooks. I even keep one pen with changeable readily available cartridges that is THE logbook pen. Only a CFI may write with another pen in the 3rd one and I'd prefer black on the ink color.

 

[Palmpilot]

Cross outs while keeping the original writing legible and initials next to them and a note at the math error page.

That reminds me: Has anyone found either a regulation, or guidance from the Administrator, that requires the signing of logbooks and/or the initialing of corrections?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I spent so many hours getting to solo, and I still fly all the four planes I'm signed off in. I would be really upset if this happened to me, personally, and I would definitely follow the advice of many of the posters, above. I still take pride in the look of my logbook and try not to cross off anything. Just the messy look alone might upset me. Sorry this happened to you, how lame.

 

[rainsux]

> You might ask the FSDO what they think about this, including the problem that this
> creates for any solo flights you made on the strength of those now-deleted
> endorsements (and yes, that is a big deal if the FAA ever has reason to investigate
> your qualifications).

Precisely how did he void his prior entries? Scratch them out? Without dating the
alteration? Make another entry, voiding the first? Dated it?

Very wise to approach the FAA now, rather than later. I can imagine that a DPE or
FSDO Inspector might be wary when examining your logbook. Also wise get to the
FSDO's answer in-writing, because it might come up again (future checkride, FAA
inspection, enforcement action, etc).

Also wise to-do it now, while your current CFI's memory of the encounter is still fresh.

Never, NEVER, underestimate the ability of the FAA Administrator's representative to
make a mountain out of a molehill. A FSDO Inspector was present for my MES
checkride, checking the DPE. He objected loud & long to entries I made in my
student/solo days 25 years prior. We spent ~15 minutes [cough] discussing (arguing)
whether the "t+g" comments were "touch & goes" or; "++g" (many G's). At the
time, ALL of my printing was in lowercase.

 

[alland]

iFlare, certainly a very unusual action by the CFI, and I agree with the responses and suggestions of the other posters here, but reading through the thread, apologies if I'm missing something, but I can't see anywhere that you actually asked him WHY he did what he did to your documents ?

If I had been in your position, that would have been the first thing on my mind and the guy would not have been going anywhere until he gave me a reason to justify his actions.

 

[Dr. O]

I am not in the "this guy is a jerk" camp... I am in the "this guy is a federal criminal" camp... You cannot deface a federal document by scribbling things out that you entered... There is a specific method for altering a document... You make a completely new entry stating that on this date and time you are rescinding/changing/whatever the previous authorizations and WHY you are doing so...

Make a photocopy of the DEFACED log and medical... Send that with a cover letter to the FSDO asking for an official investigation as to why he illegally and improperly defaced an official federal document...
1. This will create a document trail for later because an FAA examiner is absolutely sure to declare that all your solo time in the PA140 was illegal because you do not have a record of a valid CFI authorization in your log for that time period...
2. Absolutely do not worry about hard feelings or problems with the flight school.. The CFI who is an employee of the school and acting under the authority of his employer created this disaster and he needs to have his butt flammed - or fired.... Go straight to the owner of the flight school and demand that he get the situation corrected...
3. ALSO: Have an attorney send him and the CFI a letter demanding that they correct this illegal defacement of an official federal document or face civil litigation... (Don't bother actually suing, only the lawyers win) This creates a document trail showing you are the injured party acting in good faith...

When you do this the owner and the offending CFI will not like you... The CFI already does not like you (child tantrum) and the owner is going to be about one step behind when he realizes his school is about to get into hot water with the FAA - however they will respect you and treat you very carefully...

Explain to you new CFI that you are doing this to protect your certificate from future problems so that he understands none of this will spill over onto him...

Unpleasant? Yes...
Just remember that you did not create the problem and that it is incumbent on those who did, to make the corrections and apologies...