Pattern Question?

danhagan

danhagan

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danhagan
I couldn't find the answer, probably looking in the wrong area(s).

Scenario: Pilot controlled field - left traffic runway 10, southside of drome is off limits for skydiving. All traffic remain north.

This past weekend I was #5 of 6 in the pattern, most were in closed traffic. During crosswind there's a number of stepped on calls ... up ahead, guys getting too close to one another. In short, base #2 gets too close to #1 on final, and 3 and 4 are having an issue on downwind. Next thing I see, #2 on base announces "left 360 for spacing" and 3 and 4 also begin doing 360's on the downwind. It ended up left, right and left 360's for #'s 2,3 and 4. I departed the pattern from the crosswind (easy out). I thought the 360 was supposed to be opposite direction of the traffic pattern similar to when ATC asks for a 270 at a controlled field? :popcorn:{Flame suit on in case I'm mistaken} From the crosswind, it looked like aerial combat ahead - they were WAY too tight.
 
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There will be people who say that all turns in the traffic pattern must be left (assuming left traffic). But if you are doing 360's in the pattern for spacing, I don't think I'd be doing it on the inside of the pattern. I've only done that at a towered airport when told to, and it was always to the outside.

I think your best decision was to leave!
 
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With a pattern that full I think I would have just flown upwind and not done the touch and go if I were that guy on base and didn't like the spacing. As far as which way to turn I'd say a good rule of thumb would be opposite the pattern direction (if left traffic do right 360s)

I don't think its a great idea to do any 360s though in a saturated pattern. I'd vote for just extending the downwind. If the guy in front of me is too close that's fine...I'll just watch him turn base and then I'll fly right past that point to creat space. Hopefully the guy following will follow me and the pattern just gets enlongated, if you see what I mean.

In this way spacing is maintained and nobody has to do any 360s.

Given the story as told I'd say you made an awesome decision to bug out on the X wind.
 
Matthew said:
There will be people who say that all turns in the trafffic pattern must be left (assuming left traffic).
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I'd say, to those people, that when I make the 360 opposite direction, that I am temporarily departing the pattern to rejoin later.


However, see above...my preferred method would be to just extend the downwind. With that said though, sometimes you have to do some of that pilot ****.
 
Captain said:
However, see above...my preferred method would be to just extend the downwind. With that said though, sometimes you have to do some of that pilot ****.
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I thought that would be the best option for #3 and #4 (extend downwind), but they didn't. Ironically, I bugged out (decided to fly my AC to its service ceiling since I had nothing else to do and hadn't done it before) and returned later. Upon return, same crew in the pattern, same AC's doing 360's only this time a Lear that wanted a straight in was forced to left traffic pattern 500 above TPA and trying to mix in as well. I ALWAYS extend or depart pattern and let them have the straight in figuring they're burning a ton more fuel and I'm there for hobby anyway. Fortunately, all of them called full stop while I was inbound and I didn't have to deal with it again.
 
danhagan said:
Scenario: Pilot controlled field - left traffic runway 10, southside of drome is off limits for skydiving. All traffic remain north.

This past weekend I was #5 of 6 in the pattern, most were in closed traffic.
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Were you in closed traffic? If not, a similar thing happened to me a bit ago. I was flying in from a local sightseeing flight, and six or so airplanes including myself appeared at the airport at the same time all expecting to land. It got seriously crazy. But it made things a lot easier on my end just to hold a few miles from the field until they formed a line I could work myself into. Plus, who doesn't want to loiter over MD's Eastern Shore a little longer? :)
 
Doing a 360 to the inside of the pattern is unwise. As you saw, folks end up beak-to-beak. That said, sometimes just going around and continuing through the pattern is a much better idea than trying to make a 360, especially if the person behind you doesn't realize what you're doing (not everyone has a radio, and not everyone with one hears and understands what you say).
 
jpower said:
Were you in closed traffic? If not, a similar thing happened to me a bit ago. I was flying in from a local sightseeing flight, and six or so airplanes including myself appeared at the airport at the same time all expecting to land. It got seriously crazy. But it made things a lot easier on my end just to hold a few miles from the field until they formed a line I could work myself into. Plus, who doesn't want to loiter over MD's Eastern Shore a little longer? :)
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Yes ... and I hate to say it, but I know who was #6 rotating on upwind and did NOT want to be in front of that guy with everything else that was going on up ahead.:yikes:
 
Ron Levy said:
Doing a 360 to the inside of the pattern is unwise. As you saw, folks end up beak-to-beak. That said, sometimes just going around and continuing through the pattern is a much better idea than trying to make a 360, especially if the person behind you doesn't realize what you're doing (not everyone has a radio, and not everyone with one hears and understands what you say).
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:yeahthat: It was pretty ugly, glancing out the left window on crosswind I thought for sure I was going to see a fireball near the base turn. Have been in the pattern with 10 at that airport, but the downwind extended and everyone was flying 747 style final approaches (no 360's).
 
Busiest I've ever been in has been 6 in the pattern doing touch and goes. All went well, we all had good spacing, and everything was cool. Until someone came barreling through on a straight-in for the x-wind rwy and flew right through all of us.
 
I am pretty sure that I would have broke off and rejoined up after everyone figures spacing and what not.
 
I think slowing down &/or s-turns is more appropriate for planes in a pattern Conga line.

For those of you who fly the really slow planes, you many also look at this as an indicator that when there's a crowded pattern, you need to keep your speed up until you turn final and keep your pattern tight. If you can't, it would be quite courteous and down rightly safety minded to go somewhere less crowded. If you're doing T&Gs, you may want to depart the pattern every few laps and come back in at the back so you don't get everybody stacked behind you. Basically you are riding a scooter on the freeway so try to think of others as you clog the pattern.
 
Henning said:
I think slowing down &/or s-turns is more appropriate for planes in a pattern Conga line.

For those of you who fly the really slow planes, you many also look at this as an indicator that when there's a crowded pattern, you need to keep your speed up until you turn final and keep your pattern tight. If you can't, it would be quite courteous and down rightly safety minded to go somewhere less crowded. If you're doing T&Gs, you may want to depart the pattern every few laps and come back in at the back so you don't get everybody stacked behind you. Basically you are riding a scooter on the freeway so try to think of others as you clog the pattern.
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The pattern isn't a freeway. This seems like a bad attitude to me. The airport in question is an uncrontrolled airport. I do extend for traffic slower than me and also for straight ins. I think it is pretty arrogant to say "go land somewhere else". Why should I divert from my destination, because someone has a faster plane and doesn't know how or want to manage his/her speed in the patern?
 
John221us said:
The pattern isn't a freeway. This seems like a bad attitude to me. The airport in question is an uncrontrolled airport. I do extend for traffic slower than me and also for straight ins. I think it is pretty arrogant to say "go land somewhere else". Why should I divert from my destination, because someone has a faster plane and doesn't know how or want to manage his/her speed in the patern?
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I'm not talking about diverting from a destination going landing somewhere, I'm talking about staying in the pattern for hours(s) at a time. The pattern is most definitely a freeway, you have a bunch of operators going fast in close proximity and are individually and collectively responsible for collision avoidance. If you are going to do 45 when everybody else is doing 90, you will be responsible for causing an accident even if you aren't held liable.
 
Henning said:
I'm not talking about diverting from a destination going landing somewhere, I'm talking about staying in the pattern for hours(s) at a time. The pattern is most definitely a freeway, you have a bunch of operators going fast in close proximity and are individually and collectively responsible for collision avoidance. If you are going to do 45 when everybody else is doing 90, you will be responsible for causing an accident even if you aren't held liable.
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Our field is extremely training intensive, so on Saturday and Sunday there will be a minimum of 4 in the pattern until noon. When I was training in the 152's, I kept the pattern TIGHT, would do power off 180's if I knew there was a line closing behind. Two guys have Pitts that would come during my practice time, I would stay tight and they'd haul arse and pass on the outside (everyone communicating) ... I normally would let everyone in front of me by changing speed, extending downwind or if necessary re-joining the pattern after exiting.
 
I think slowing down &/or s-turns is more appropriate for planes in a pattern Conga line.
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I think this is best also. People sometimes forget they can slow down.
 
danhagan said:
Our field is extremely training intensive, so on Saturday and Sunday there will be a minimum of 4 in the pattern until noon. When I was training in the 152's, I kept the pattern TIGHT, would do power off 180's if I knew there was a line closing behind. Two guys have Pitts that would come during my practice time, I would stay tight and they'd haul arse and pass on the outside (everyone communicating) ... I normally would let everyone in front of me by changing speed, extending downwind or if necessary re-joining the pattern after exiting.
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Exactly, and you bring up a good point, being overtaken in the pattern is legit. Sorry, I can't do 90 on downwind, I'm not doing less than 120 until I'm pointing at the threshold. If I call to tell you I'm gonna pass your 152 on downwind, don't complain lol. You gotta consider everybody and how to make it best work. If you are in the slow mover with several faster planes, it's best to keep your pattern as tight as possible and don't call your final until you can drop in on it efficiently. People will notice as well.
 
gismo said:
Perhaps someone flying faster than the slowest plane can go should be the one to go somewhere else?
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That doesn't make any sense since he can get out of the mix, on the ground and everybody's way first.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, and you bring up a good point, being overtaken in the pattern is legit. Sorry, I can't do 90 on downwind, I'm not doing less than 120 until I'm pointing at the threshold. If I call to tell you I'm gonna pass your 152 on downwind, don't complain lol. You gotta consider everybody and how to make it best work. If you are in the slow mover with several faster planes, it's best to keep your pattern as tight as possible and don't call your final until you can drop in on it efficiently. People will notice as well.
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Somehow I've managed to follow J3 Cubs around the pattern in my Baron which likely has the same speed restrictions as your 310 and AFaIK I've never had to pass one. I find that if I just fly a bigger pattern than the slow traffic our circuit times come out the same. OTOH if the slow traffic insists on flying a 3 mile final and runs downwind 2+ miles from the runway I'd probably end up in the pattern of a nearby airport if I went bigger but that's a different issue.

On the flip side, when I fly circuits in my 65HP taildragger which climbs at 45 mph and likes less than that on final I usually end up catching up with the faster traffic if I fly the size pattern I like in that airplane.
 
gismo said:
Somehow I've managed to follow J3 Cubs around the pattern in my Baron which likely has the same speed restrictions as your 310 and AFaIK I've never had to pass one. I find that if I just fly a bigger pattern than the slow traffic our circuit times come out the same. OTOH if the slow traffic insists on flying a 3 mile final and runs downwind 2+ miles from the runway I'd probably end up in the pattern of a nearby airport if I went bigger but that's a different issue.

On the flip side, when I fly circuits in my 65HP taildragger which climbs at 45 mph and likes less than that on final I usually end up catching up with the faster traffic if I fly the size pattern I like in that airplane.
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It's a rare day that I pass anyone, but there one one complaining azz in an Arrow that I was lapping upstairs around Rippon flying 80kts. I didn't tell him to get downstairs, just announced that I was going to come around his right and he started whaling like a little child. If someone passes you anywhere it is legitimate just so long as they don't get in your way, deal with it. I've never passed anyone in the pattern that I recall but I can't say the situation will never arise, and when it does I will safely overtake you and never effect your flight trajectory. If I pass you in a 152 on downwind, I promise I will be clear of the runway before you're halfway down final, no worries, just relax; I fly a tighter pattern than most 152s.
 
Anyone who flies wide patterns in a 152 must be richer than I am!
 
Palmpilot said:
Anyone who flies wide patterns in a 152 must be richer than I am!
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I have come into the pattern where 152s and Cherokee 140s were flying patterns way off the runway, I never understood that, just a waste of time and money.
 
One persons wide pattern is another persons normal pattern. When your down low and in a pattern a 1,000 foot difference in pattern width looks like a lot.
 
Captain said:
One persons wide pattern is another persons normal pattern. When your down low and in a pattern a 1,000 foot difference in pattern width looks like a lot.
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Well that's just it, it's what people are being taught to fly patterns, it seems that the majority of CFIs today were B-52 IPs or something. It's like the 45* rule for flying a pattern disappeared. Most patterns I see wouldn't be landable until very short final, and even many of them, the power best not fail too far out or they won't even make the fence. I'm trying to figure out why we are teaching PP candidates in a 152 to fly them like airliners. When a 152 can meet all the Pt 25 performance requirements of an airliner, then they can be flown like airliners. Until that day though, they should be flown as the small SE planes that they are; that means traffic patterns as well.
 
That's well and good. Except small GA aircraft are after referred to as 'trainers' and some of those trainers are training for something other that C-152 ownership. Some are training for IFR and others are training for bigger equipment. Both of those would see benifit in a stabilised 3* glide path learned and practiced early on.

A super tight pattern where you can always land with an engine failure doesn't really lend itself to the stabilised 3*.
 
Has it occurred to you that that size of somebody else's pattern is NOYFB?

Henning said:
Well that's just it, it's what people are being taught to fly patterns, it seems that the majority of CFIs today were B-52 IPs or something. It's like the 45* rule for flying a pattern disappeared. Most patterns I see wouldn't be landable until very short final, and even many of them, the power best not fail too far out or they won't even make the fence. I'm trying to figure out why we are teaching PP candidates in a 152 to fly them like airliners. When a 152 can meet all the Pt 25 performance requirements of an airliner, then they can be flown like airliners. Until that day though, they should be flown as the small SE planes that they are; that means traffic patterns as well.
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wabower said:
Has it occurred to you that that size of somebody else's pattern is NOYFB?
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No problem, I don't care if I pass you in the pattern, I'm fine with it, fly where ever in the f- you want; on the reverse of that same coin though, don't ***** when I pass you inside the mile and a half you've offset yourself on down wind with flaps out doing 70. I don't mind and neither should you because where I fly my pattern is NOYFB either.

There is no regulation I know of that says the pattern has to cater to the slowest plane or where the slowest powered aircraft has right of way.
 
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So you won't be offended if I fly the short approach that I've been planning as you pass by?

Henning said:
No problem, I don't care if I pass you in the pattern, I'm fine with it, fly where ever in the f- you want; on the reverse of that same coin though, don't ***** when I pass you inside the mile and a half you've offset yourself on down wind with flaps out doing 70. I don't mind and neither should you because where I fly my pattern is NOYFB either.

There is no regulation I know of that says the pattern has to cater to the slowest plane or where the slowest powered aircraft has right of way.
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wabower said:
So you won't be offended if I fly the short approach that I've been planning as you pass by?
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Nope, not a bit, if I see you head for the deck in front of my approach I'll go around, or do a 360 if there's no one behind me. Whoever gets there first gets there first, as long as I have them in visual, no sweat. It's an uncontrolled airport, don't hit anyone is the only rule that matters.
 
As long as we understand each other. If not, Vito will be waiting when you land.

Henning said:
Nope, not a bit, if I see you head for the deck in front of my approach I'll go around, or do a 360 if there's no one behind me. Whoever gets there first gets there first, as long as I have them in visual, no sweat. It's an uncontrolled airport, don't hit anyone is the only rule that matters.
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Henning said:
Exactly, and you bring up a good point, being overtaken in the pattern is legit. Sorry, I can't do 90 on downwind, I'm not doing less than 120 until I'm pointing at the threshold. If I call to tell you I'm gonna pass your 152 on downwind, don't complain lol. You gotta consider everybody and how to make it best work. If you are in the slow mover with several faster planes, it's best to keep your pattern as tight as possible and don't call your final until you can drop in on it efficiently. People will notice as well.
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I don't do 90 on downwind either. You are welcome to pass me anytime - just let me know. And, I do keep it real tight to get it down before I get run down from behind by a 152. :wink2:
 
Captain said:
That's well and good. Except small GA aircraft are after referred to as 'trainers' and some of those trainers are training for something other that C-152 ownership. Some are training for IFR and others are training for bigger equipment. Both of those would see benifit in a stabilised 3* glide path learned and practiced early on.

A super tight pattern where you can always land with an engine failure doesn't really lend itself to the stabilised 3*.
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I got my last flight review in a 150. But, now that I have moved on to my own airplane, it is pretty unlikely that I will be flying anything that big and fast very much anymore. :wink2:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I don't do 90 on downwind either. You are welcome to pass me anytime - just let me know. And, I do keep it real tight to get it down before I get run down from behind by a 152. :wink2:
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That's it, let people know what's going on so there aren't surprises. If you come back and say "I'm about to turn base" I'll extend and keep an eye out after I pass you. It's like when people get into a plane, they forget how to be a cooperative human and anything that happens outside the written plan of action they were taught is horrifying. Passing in planes is no more dangerous than passing in cars and we do that within inches of each other thousands of times a day because we were taught that's the way it is. You wouldn't want to have to follow some of the early traffic rules for cars either like having someone walking out in front of it with a red flag or lantern.

Why people get in a plane and suddenly can't think like rational human beings has always kinda perplexed me.
 
Henning said:
No problem, I don't care if I pass you in the pattern, I'm fine with it, fly where ever in the f- you want; on the reverse of that same coin though, don't ***** when I pass you inside the mile and a half you've offset yourself on down wind with flaps out doing 70. I don't mind and neither should you because where I fly my pattern is NOYFB either.
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Henning said:
It's like when people get into a plane, they forget how to be a cooperative human and anything that happens outside the written plan of action they were taught is horrifying.
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The other problem I see (both in the pattern and on the ground) are planes ready to go that sit and sit and sit trying to depart into a full pattern. Go out someday when you have nothing to do and use a timer to see:

1. The average time from base turn to touchdown
2. The average time from turning final to touchdown

You'll be surprised how MOST AC are about 60 seconds a leg. Then time yourself with no one around as if you just received a "cleared immediate takeoff - no delay" call from ATC and actually get out and apply the coals. You should be wheels up in 35-45 seconds from the hold short line. In summary, move you arse if they haven't turn final yet ... quit holding short for the guy(s) just turning base ... and if they're on base a simple "Bugmasher 123, Cessa 456 do you mind if we do an immediate depart?"
 
Yep, it's just not that difficult for eveyone to just cooperate and make it work. Some times things get boxed up and someone has to bai out for a minute to square it away. If you let the faster traffic clear the pattern first, it makes it safer and simpler for everyone involved and the person paying the greatest per hour rate gets to shut down first.
 
danhagan said:
The other problem I see (both in the pattern and on the ground) are planes ready to go that sit and sit and sit trying to depart into a full pattern. Go out someday when you have nothing to do and use a timer to see:

1. The average time from base turn to touchdown
2. The average time from turning final to touchdown

You'll be surprised how MOST AC are about 60 seconds a leg. Then time yourself with no one around as if you just received a "cleared immediate takeoff - no delay" call from ATC and actually get out and apply the coals. You should be wheels up in 35-45 seconds from the hold short line. In summary, move you arse if they haven't turn final yet ... quit holding short for the guy(s) just turning base ... and if they're on base a simple "Bugmasher 123, Cessa 456 do you mind if we do an immediate depart?"
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Right on. Remember that the plane on base/final is either maintaining approach speed or decelerating and you are accelerating.

Bob Gardner
 
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