Can I charge passengers for engine overhaul?

Challenged

Challenged

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Challenged
As a Private Pilot, am I allowed to charge passengers their portion of an engine and/or propeller overhaul fund for a flight?

Additionally, if I have a co-worker who is borrowing my plane to get his PPL, am I allowed to charge him for engine overhaul time? Since he is a named pilot on my insurance, I can't actually rent the plane to him without needing a different policy, but does that also mean I can't get a reimbursement for engine overhaul funds?

Lastly, if I am able to charge for engine overhaul, when does the calculation for that occur? Meaning, can I only charge for engine overhaul based on a zero time engine to manufacturer TBO, or can I charge them a fee based on the engine time from the time of their flight, or would it only be from the time of my purchase of the airplane to TBO?
 
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An alternative would be if the plane is owned by an LLC, and you pay rental to the LLC that includes an engine reserve, that's acceptable.

Remember, an LLC is a separate legal entity from the owner. So, if you normally pay rental to your LLC, then you should be able to do the same when calculating pro-rata shares.
 
I just charge my friends for spending time with me. If we happen to be flying they pay me to having the honor of being with me. If we go canoeing they pay me for the honor of being with me. Then I never have to justify to the FAA about pro-rata stuff. They are paying me just to be in my presence.
 
In the first case, it's not just the lack of a commercial certificate that prevents you from doing that legally. You'd also need a 135 operator's certificate, I believe.

Edit - or as pointed out above, some way of calling the overhaul costs a rental cost.
 
Interesting information, especially about the LLC, thanks much.
 
Operating costs can be shared on PP flights, and without a 135 certificate.

All the conditions apply. Pro rata share. Common purpose. Not holding out.

Factoring a maintenance reserve into your operating costs is legal and prudent. $5-10/HR isn't out of reason for a typical lyci-conti 4 banger.

Your buddy borrowing the plane should be ok with that as we unless he's looking for a free ride.
 
No.

61.113(c): "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro-rata share of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

You can ask passengers to chip in for direct operating expenses, not indirect expenses.

Bob Gardner
 
JeffDG said:
An alternative would be if the plane is owned by an LLC, and you pay rental to the LLC that includes an engine reserve, that's acceptable.

Remember, an LLC is a separate legal entity from the owner. So, if you normally pay rental to your LLC, then you should be able to do the same when calculating pro-rata shares.
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This route also provides tax advantages, and the "rental fees" come from the LLC so your good that way.

Another way(if your situation is germane to this) to get around some of the P135 stuff is to join National Business Aircraft Association (NBAA), there is a small aircraft exemption carved out in the regs for members. You have to be on a progressive maint. plan but it allows for several leasing situations that otherwise would tangle with Part 135. Basically charges cant exceed twice the amount of fuel for the plane with very limited exceptions.
 
bobmrg said:
No.

61.113(c): "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro-rata share of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

You can ask passengers to chip in for direct operating expenses, not indirect expenses.

Bob Gardner
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And here I was taking all my friends up for free. I need to start getting them to chip in for rental.

EdFred said:
I just charge my friends for spending time with me. If we happen to be flying they pay me to having the honor of being with me. If we go canoeing they pay me for the honor of being with me. Then I never have to justify to the FAA about pro-rata stuff. They are paying me just to be in my presence.
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This is the best plan I've heard . :rofl:
 
Challenged said:
As a Private Pilot, am I allowed to charge passengers their portion of an engine and/or propeller overhaul fund for a flight?
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Sort of. You can't charge them to take them somewhere. You can have them pay an equal share of the costs *IF* there is a common purpose to the flight.

"Hey, Mr Pilot, can you fly me to Chicago tomorrow? I'll give you some money"
That is a no-no

"Hey, Mr Passenger, I'm Mr Pilot and I'm flying to Canada to go fishing tomorrow. Want to come with?"
"Sure, I'd love to Mr Pilot! Mind if I pay an equal share of the operating costs?"
"Of course I don't mind. We'll leave tomorrow at noon"
This is fine

Challenged said:
Additionally, if I have a co-worker who is borrowing my plane to get his PPL, am I allowed to charge him for engine overhaul time? Since he is a named pilot on my insurance, I can't actually rent the plane to him without needing a different policy, but does that also mean I can't get a reimbursement for engine overhaul funds?
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You can charge him however you please. You're not flying passengers or freight for hire.

Challeneged said:
Lastly, if I am able to charge for engine overhaul, when does the calculation for that occur? Meaning, can I only charge for engine overhaul based on a zero time engine to manufacturer TBO, or can I charge them a fee based on the engine time from the time of their flight, or would it only be from the time of my purchase of the airplane to TBO?
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In the first case where you have a passenger on a common purpose flight, they may pay an equal DIRECT operating cost OF that flight. Not thousands of hours in advance.

In the second case where you're letting someone use the airplane. You may tell them that they cannot use your airplane unless they hand you over $100,000 right now.
 
Charging for the use of the aircraft has nothing to do with the private pilot sharing expenses. He may charge any thing he wants for the use of the aircraft as long as he is not in it.

He doesn't event have to have 100 hour inspections. as long as he isn't the one teaching.
 
jesse said:
Sort of. You can't charge them to take them somewhere. You can have them pay an equal share of the costs *IF* there is a common purpose to the flight.

"Hey, Mr Pilot, can you fly me to Chicago tomorrow? I'll give you some money"
That is a no-no

"Hey, Mr Passenger, I'm Mr Pilot and I'm flying to Canada to go fishing tomorrow. Want to come with?"
"Sure, I'd love to Mr Pilot! Mind if I pay an equal share of the operating costs?"
"Of course I don't mind. We'll leave tomorrow at noon"
This is fine


You can charge him however you please. You're not flying passengers or freight for hire.


In the first case where you have a passenger on a common purpose flight, they may pay an equal DIRECT operating cost OF that flight. Not thousands of hours in advance.

In the second case where you're letting someone use the airplane. You may tell them that they cannot use your airplane unless they hand you over $100,000 right now.
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Can I buy block of time in your aircraft.? I want to get checked out in it by another CFI.
 
Can you rent an aircraft and hire a CFI to learn to fly....?
 
Challenged said:
Lastly, if I am able to charge for engine overhaul, when does the calculation for that occur? Meaning, can I only charge for engine overhaul based on a zero time engine to manufacturer TBO, or can I charge them a fee based on the engine time from the time of their flight, or would it only be from the time of my purchase of the airplane to TBO?
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completely up to you. However, when you bought the plane its kind of understood that the value of the engine time used is already absent from the value of the plane.
 
bobmrg said:
No.

61.113(c): "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro-rata share of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

You can ask passengers to chip in for direct operating expenses, not indirect expenses.

Bob Gardner
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Ahhh, that answers the question, but it's bad logic since indirect expenses are included in rental fees.
 
chucky said:
Bad logic? FAA?
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Before you complain too loudly though, check out the enforcements stats on all this stuff and find where it leads... Whenever you see a bust, it an ongoing enterprise of someone skirting the charter rules and an operator with a 135 cert turns them in, and even then it's usually several meetings and warnings before they do anything substantive.
 
Henning said:
Before you complain too loudly though, check out the enforcements stats on all this stuff and find where it leads... Whenever you see a bust, it an ongoing enterprise of someone skirting the charter rules and an operator with a 135 cert turns them in, and even then it's usually several meetings and warnings before they do anything substantive.
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If you, personally, own the plane (not through an LLC), then no, you can't charge engine maintenance (legally...whether they enforce it or not is another question) because there's no rental fee.
 
Henning said:
Why not? It's part of the cost, why couldn't it be part of the prorata?
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There is no prorata, because he is not flying with the student.

Any owner can rent their aircraft to any one they please.

flight sharing rules do not apply. because he ain't sharing the aircraft.

many students borrow aircraft, rent aircraft, buy block time, etc

Their is nothing in the FARS prohibiting this.

At one time I had 3 C-150s for rent. I charged a flat fee per hour, all I needed was a business license.
 
Henning said:
Ahhh, that answers the question, but it's bad logic since indirect expenses are included in rental fees.
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How does this rule apply when the owner pilot is not in the aircraft ?

61.113 (2)(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

he is not sharing, he is renting a piece of equipment.
 
Tom-D said:
How does this rule apply when the owner pilot is not in the aircraft ?

61.113 (2)(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

he is not sharing, he is renting a piece of equipment.
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I was addressing this question...

As a Private Pilot, am I allowed to charge passengers their portion of an engine and/or propeller overhaul fund for a flight?
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You're answering his next.
 
Tom-D said:
Can you rent an aircraft and hire a CFI to learn to fly....?
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That is how I learned to fly. Rented the airplane from one firm and paid the CFI separately, since he was operating independently.
 
Henning said:
Before you complain too loudly though, check out the enforcements stats on all this stuff and find where it leads... Whenever you see a bust, it an ongoing enterprise of someone skirting the charter rules and an operator with a 135 cert turns them in, and even then it's usually several meetings and warnings before they do anything substantive.
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I wasn't complaining, I was just being a smartass, as is my wont. But however the FAA chooses to enforce it's rules, the breadth of their interpretation still seems to me to stretch logic to the breaking point. I'm not going to argue that restricting flying for compensation to properly certificated pilots is stupid, but the inclusion of 'goodwill' and the (arbitrary, unwritten) addition of the 'common purpose' concept gives a new pilot like me the distinct impression that the FAA is more concerned with finding an excuse to screw with pilots than it is with safety. Writing about it completely straight-faced in a magazine entitled 'Safety Briefing' (page 15) just reinforces that.

(note - I'm not knocking 'Safety Briefing' here, which I actually think is a pretty good thing for the FAA to be doing, even if it isn't always perfect)
 
I don't charge people for flights nor do I expect anything. If they chose to pony up something, I can give them an honest appraisal of the cost of the flight. (I figure the hourly is about $85.)
Most times, I get a dinner out of them (sans drinks and dessert).
 
silver-eagle said:
I don't charge people for flights nor do I expect anything. If they chose to pony up something, I can give them an honest appraisal of the cost of the flight. (I figure the hourly is about $85.)
Most times, I get a dinner out of them (sans drinks and dessert).
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You can do that because YOU are in the aircraft, and sharing the expenses of THAT flight

In the OP's situation, he is not in the aircraft when it is being used by the student, and the student's CFI. thus the sharing rule does not apply.
 
This question comes up over, and over, and over, and over and over again. It's NO. You can't.

If you want the definitive answer, call Albert Brown at FAA, at headquarters. Your ears will hurt.
 
bbchien said:
This question comes up over, and over, and over, and over and over again. It's NO. You can't.

If you want the definitive answer, call Albert Brown at FAA, at headquarters. Your ears will hurt.
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He'll tell you all about sharing expenses, this guy is not sharing, he is allowing his aircraft to be rented.

any one can rent your aircraft, there is no rule saying you can't.
 
Tom-D said:
He'll tell you all about sharing expenses, this guy is not sharing, he is allowing his aircraft to be rented.

any one can rent your aircraft, there is no rule saying you can't.
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Original post said:
As a Private Pilot, am I allowed to charge passengers their portion of an engine and/or propeller overhaul fund for a flight?

Additionally, if I have a co-worker who is borrowing my plane to get his PPL, am I allowed to charge him for engine overhaul time? Since he is a named pilot on my insurance, I can't actually rent the plane to him without needing a different policy, but does that also mean I can't get a reimbursement for engine overhaul funds?
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He does not say that. He says (and thinks) he cannot rent the aircraft as the guy is a named insured (WTheck?).

Expense sharing for a common purpose trip is limited to out of pocket expenses. As I said, hope springs eternal and you can believe what you want. The Transp. IG will make you wish to g_d you had not been wishful.

So taking it for flight training- the trick is to lease the airplane and do annuals every 100 hours, and have all costs included....insurance....100 hour inspections. Remember it's gonna quack like a rental.

But no, he cannot charge him for the overhaul fund per se'. But he can charge the guy any rate he see fit.
 
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bbchien said:
He does not say that. He says he cannot rent the aircraft.

Expense sharing for a common purpose trip is limited to out of pocket expenses. As I said, hope springs eternal and you can believe what you want. The Transp. IG will make you wish to g_d you had not been wishful.

So taking it for flight training- the trick is to lease the airplane and do annuals every 100 hours, and have all costs included.

But no, he cannot charge him for the overhaul fund per se'.
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He can't rent the aircraft for a common purpose trip. He can rent any ones aircraft for training by a CFI who is not the CFI. If the CFI ownes and provides the aircraft for training the aircraft must have less than 100 hours from annual or a 100 hour inspection preformed.
 
bbchien said:
He is confused.
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There is a big difference between renting and sharing expenses on a common purpose trip.

I can legally rent your aircraft for any legal purpose, as long as you are not in the aircraft for the trip.

I can't rent your aircraft and have you fly me some place, even if we both need to go there.

If you give me training in your aircraft, your aircraft must comply with the 100 hour rule.
 
The rule about the owner operator sharing expenses with his passengers is well known, they can only pay their fare share.

rental aircraft are owned by many people who present their aircraft to the public for training or personal flight.

It is legal to buy block time in any ones aircraft, or pay by the hour, wet or dry.

Many many pilots and students do this.
 
Tom, I think what's really going on here, with very convoluted english, is the OP doesn't want to charge a rental or it will void the policy, which will cover them both if no money is changing hands.

So he doesn't want to charge his friend for a rental. He want to charge for TBO. How transparent is that to both the insuror and to FAA? "Sorry, this was a commercial operation, we have no insurance obligation under you policy".

So, he obviously doesn't want to incur the cost of a commercial policy, and it's beginning to bother him that he's "eating it". Just about every commercial policy that I've encountered requires 100 hour inspections, even if the bird is NOT being let out by an owner/CFI.

I think that's what's really going on here.....
Then there's the title of the string.....totally confused.
Alberta or someone like her needs to "help" him out.
 
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I apologize if my original wording was confusing. I guess I should have made two posts, as there were really two separate questions I wanted an answer to.

1) Q: While I pilot my own plane, can I charge my passengers for overhaul time. A) The answer to this it seems is clearly no, unless there is an LLC involved that I am renting from.

2) Q: Without upgrading to a commercial insurance policy, can I charge a friend for overhaul time while he uses my plane with a CFI? A) Still not sure about this one. I don't want to make money on the deal, since he's a friend, but it would be nice to be able to at least break even on engine time.
 
Challenged said:
2) Q: Without upgrading to a commercial insurance policy, can I charge a friend for overhaul time while he uses my plane with a CFI? A) Still not sure about this one. I don't want to make money on the deal, since he's a friend, but it would be nice to be able to at least break even on engine time.
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Are you pilot in command when he and the CFI are using it? Doesn't even sound like you are in the plane. Note that 61.113 is in regards to limitations to acting as pilot in command, not in regards to sitting at home in front of the TV. So for the purposes of FAA regulations you can charge him or the CFI anything you like when you aren't PIC (you could even be a passenger and collect 100% expenses and profit from them.)

Insurance company limitations are a different thing altogether. You're named on the insurance too I presume - so does that mean your insurance company doesn't allow you to pay airplane expenses either? Who's left to pay for them if not the named pilots?

Actually, if your friend ever takes your plane up as PIC you would be putting HIM in violation of 61.113 if he did not pay pro rata share. Think about that!
 
bbchien said:
Tom, I think what's really going on here, with very convoluted english, is the OP doesn't want to charge a rental or it will void the policy, which will cover them both if no money is changing hands.

The insurance issue is a totally different subject.

So he doesn't want to charge his friend for a rental. He want to charge for TBO. How transparent is that to both the insuror and to FAA? "Sorry, this was a commercial operation, we have no insurance obligation under you policy".

He can rent the aircraft to any one he likes there is no rule preventing this.

So, he obviously doesn't want to incur the cost of a commercial policy, and it's beginning to bother him that he's "eating it". Just about every commercial policy that I've encountered requires 100 hour inspections, even if the bird is NOT being let out by an owner/CFI.

Insurance issue again.

I think that's what's really going on here.....
Then there's the title of the string.....totally confused.
Alberta or someone like her needs to "help" him out.
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How he protects his butt is his insurance companies business. not the FAAs
 
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