jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
What's the purpose of the hold at STJ on the LOC BC RWY 17 approach?
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1106/00359LBC17.PDF
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1106/00359LBC17.PDF
Look at the low altitude enroute chart, and imagine you were northeast bound on V77 or northwest bound on V159 to STJ... flying the hold would let you get turned around (and descend as necessary) onto that feeder route back to Amazon for the approach. That's my guess.
Interesting... why didn't they indicate NoPT there? That's a 171 degree turn to get established on the localizer outbound from AZN... wouldn't ATC normally clear you straight in after leaving the arrival hold?Regardless, it doesn't indicate NoPt for the feeder route, so at AZN, you still have to turn outbound and perform the procedure turn and are not authorized to just hit AZN and turn inbound.
Regardless, it doesn't indicate NoPt for the feeder route, so at AZN, you still have to turn outbound and perform the procedure turn and are not authorized to just hit AZN and turn inbound.
I think you are correct. The hold is an "arrival" holding pattern as depicted by the legend, which shows three types of holds, a hold in lieu of a procedure turn (thick black line), a missed approach hold (broken line)and an arrival hold (thin black line). In some mountainous locations the arrival hold may be necessary to descend to an altitude at which the approach may commence, although that doesn't apply in this case.
Regardless, it doesn't indicate NoPt for the feeder route, so at AZN, you still have to turn outbound and perform the procedure turn and are not authorized to just hit AZN and turn inbound.
Interesting... why didn't they indicate NoPT there? That's a 171 degree turn to get established on the localizer outbound from AZN... wouldn't ATC normally clear you straight in after leaving the arrival hold?
You could just past the IAF, turn left all the way back to the inbound, and proceed inbound.No.
They could vector you to final in which case they could clear you straight in, but if you fly the full approach, you are expected to fly the procedure turn. The feeder route takes you to the IAF and doesn't have a NoPt, so you would be expected to fly the feeder to the NDB as the IAF, turn left to intercept the outbound leg, do the procedure turn, and fly over the NDB the second time (FAF) and start down.
IF you're flying the approach own nav, yes, I get that, that's implied by the plate -- and it's why I asked why the approach is designed that way. Is it a question of not being able to determine the fix accurately enough using ADF and marker beacon alone to then find the MAP by timing?No.
They could vector you to final in which case they could clear you straight in, but if you fly the full approach, you are expected to fly the procedure turn. The feeder route takes you to the IAF and doesn't have a NoPt, so you would be expected to fly the feeder to the NDB as the IAF, turn left to intercept the outbound leg, do the procedure turn, and fly over the NDB the second time (FAF) and start down.
Not sure that's entirely true. If you are in a radar environment receiving vectors, you would not turn around at AZN and fly the PT.
How can you have a NoPt segment which is a feeder route that connects directly with the FAF with no initial or intermediate segment? Can you find an approach that has such a NoPt feeder route without at least an intermediate segment? Flying straight in without getting established on the final approach course using the associated Nav aid, where on the feeder route you are using a different frequency VOR and then transitioning to a Localizer frequency at the FAF which is a back course, would be interesting to say the least. As a practical matter, it would require two Nav units one tuned to the VOR and the other tuned to the localizer back course. Using the procedure turn could easily be accomplished with a single Nav unit, Use the VOR and the 176 radial, wait for the NDB to reverse, start the left turn, switch to the localizer frequency, fly the front course outbound, perform the procedure turn and fly the back course inbound, wait for the NDB reversal, descend to minimums. Either time the descent or use a separate DME.Including a NoPT on that segment would certainly help clarify things, but I find it hard to believe that ATC would want you to enter the hold at STJ to reverse course just to reverse course two more times before the approach, especially when they could easily clear you direct to AZN and then fly the published approach (ADF is required for the approach) in the first place.
If I was on that approach and there was any question about vectoring vs flying the published approach, I would ask ATC if they wanted me to fly it straight in or fly outbound from AZN for the PT.
Others have said pretty much as I was thinking, that in a radar environment, you'd normally be given a vector to intercept the localizer and a straight-in clearance. Is that not true?
You could just past the IAF, turn left all the way back to the inbound, and proceed inbound.
Once you fly past the IAF, you are then to do the procedure turn. The procedure turn can be done however you'd like as long as you remain on the barbed side. So if you fly past teh IAF you are then on the approach, a turn to the left followed by intercepting the FAC inbound would count as the turn.I don't think so, that is not following the procedure. You can get vectors to final, but that would intercept the final approach course on the intermediate segment after the procedure turn, usually no closer than 3 NM from the FAF.
1. On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited by the charted remain within xx NM distance). Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop procedure turn, or the 80 degree $ 260 degree course reversal. Racetrack entries should be conducted on the maneuvering side where the majority of protected airspace resides. If an entry places the pilot on the non-maneuvering side of the PT, correction to intercept the outbound course ensures remaining within protected airspace. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.
I think that is the most logical reasonIt provides a published hold to stack people up if more than one happens to be arriving, or if one is arriving while another is trying to depart.
agreeI think that is the most logical reason
Once you fly past the IAF, you are then to do the procedure turn. The procedure turn can be done however you'd like as long as you remain on the barbed side. So if you fly past teh IAF you are then on the approach, a turn to the left followed by intercepting the FAC inbound would count as the turn.
As per the aim:
Something like this would be easy and legit:
HOLDING RESTRICTIONS:
HOLDING LIMITED TO ESTABLISHED PATTERN.
Great info, Wally...thanks!
Where does it say that diverse holding is authorized? I see the remark