US Capitol evacuated due to NORDO AIRLINER in ADIZ

mikea

mikea

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Evacuated the capitol building? If that happened often enough maybe we could get Congress to stop writing new laws and spending more money. I know, I'm dreaming. Oh well...

I suspect that the captain is in trouble.
 
Ghery said:
Evacuated the capitol building? If that happened often enough maybe we could get Congress to stop writing new laws and spending more money. I know, I'm dreaming. Oh well...

I suspect that the captain is in trouble.
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They were working on New Years Day?
 
Appears that the crew plugged in the incorrect Freq according to news reports.
 
C. ANY PERSON OPERATING AN AIRBORNE AIRCRAFT UNDER INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES (IFR) WITHIN OR TRANSITING THE DC SFRA/FRZ WHO IS AWARE OF AN INABILITY TO COMPLY WITH THE REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC MUST CONTINUE THE FLIGHT VIA THE TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS FAILURE PROCEDURES FOUND IN THE FAA AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) OR APPLICABLE FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATIONS (FAR).
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Seems to me it was pretty much VMC today, in which case the crew screwed up big-time by continuing into the SFRA/FRZ.
 
I have to think that it would be funny to put a transponder on a taxi cab in DC and have it configured to squawk 1200 and always give an altitude of 500 ft. Of course it would be even funnier if the taxi cab driver didn't know about it... <evil-grin>
 
I can't help but think of that jerk airline pilot blogger complaining about the little planes clogging up his airspace a little while ago. Don't know why.
 
The amazing SNAFU is that the story is not that the airliner didn't have a squawk or didn't fly the flight plan - it just didn't answer. So in no case did ATC or NORAD not know what and where it was.
 
If the men who went to war with the most powerful country in the world and put their lives on the line (and many died) to create a country free of a tyrannical government where petty bureaucrats can order people to bow to them, could see us now - they would puke!

denny-o (ugly american and no plans to change)
 
AND it wasn't sealed in a 1qt plastic bag either!
 
mikea said:
The amazing SNAFU is that the story is not that the airliner didn't have a squawk or didn't fly the flight plan - it just didn't answer. So in no case did ATC or NORAD not know what and where it was.
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Not that we should know...is there still the "secret password of the day" deal that they may have missed saying?
 
ScottM said:
Was the flight crew aware that they were not able to communicate?
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As I understand it, they were switched to another freq, misread it, and never hooked up with the next controller. If that's what happened, they should have known they were out of comm when nobody answered on the wrong new freq.
 
I talked with one of the air carrier folks that flies part 121 and he said they wouldn't have been monitoring guard unless they had a third radio. The second would be on the company frequency.

Best,

Dave
 
Dr. O said:
If the men who went to war with the most powerful country in the world and put their lives on the line (and many died) to create a country free of a tyrannical government where petty bureaucrats can order people to bow to them, could see us now - they would puke!

denny-o (ugly american and no plans to change)
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Well I agree with you in principle but this scenario is too close to that of 9-11...NORDO airliner getting real close to sensitive buildings. I agree with the actions taken...you can't dream of shooting down an airliner in time to save the Capital or White house, but evacuation seems to be the right approach.
 
Ron Levy said:
Seems to me it was pretty much VMC today, in which case the crew screwed up big-time by continuing into the SFRA/FRZ.
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ScottM said:
Was the flight crew aware that they were not able to communicate?
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Ron Levy said:
As I understand it, they were switched to another freq, misread it, and never hooked up with the next controller. If that's what happened, they should have known they were out of comm when nobody answered on the wrong new freq.
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Perhaps the new (wrong) freq was busy (as Potomic/Wash tend to be), and they just never got a response, or even had time to call. Or it was an unused freq and they never got a response. It seems like there are several ways in which this could have been an honest mistake without direct or intentional disregard for the regs.

Dave Siciliano said:
I talked with one of the air carrier folks that flies part 121 and he said they wouldn't have been monitoring guard unless they had a third radio. The second would be on the company frequency.

Best,

Dave
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That's my company's policy. And I've never seen a turbo-prop with a third radio! We're lucky when 2 out of 2 work.
 
Ghery said:
Evacuated the capitol building? If that happened often enough maybe we could get Congress to stop writing new laws and spending more money. I know, I'm dreaming. Oh well...
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New parlimentary procedure: "pilot filibuster"
It might cost you your certificate, but now you too can delay unwanted legislation.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I understand it, they were switched to another freq, misread it, and never hooked up with the next controller. If that's what happened, they should have known they were out of comm when nobody answered on the wrong new freq.
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Or Potomac gave them the wrong freq, and failed to answer when they went back to the original to get a confirmation. I've seen it happen....
 
Teller1900 said:
Perhaps the new (wrong) freq was busy (as Potomic/Wash tend to be), and they just never got a response, or even had time to call. Or it was an unused freq and they never got a response.
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You just don't go into the SFRA/FRZ without positive 2-way comm. Whether they couldn't get a word in, or whether there was no response doesn't matter -- you just don't cross that line unless you're actively communicating with Potomac.
 
Ron Levy said:
You just don't go into the SFRA/FRZ without positive 2-way comm. Whether they couldn't get a word in, or whether there was no response doesn't matter -- you just don't cross that line unless you're actively communicating with Potomac.
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Do we know that they weren't already in it when they lost com? And do we know that they were aware that they were NORDO? I'd have to be damn certain that I was NORDO before I'm going to be turning away from my flight plan route; there is simply nothing in any company's OpSpecs that I've ever seen that allows for that kind of maneuver. There are still a lot of things we don't know about what was going on up there that could have made this an honest mistake.

I've been in and out of DCA several times in the last few years and, especially when it's busy, you sometimes just have to sit and wait for PCT or ZDC to call you.

My guess would be the switched freqs, didn't get a response right away, but heard other chatter, got busy with their decent planning, and then, when they finally realized they weren't talking to anyone it probably took them a while to find the right freq. Not at all an uncommon story, in my experience, and I don't think it would be a reason for a 121 aircraft on an IFR flight plan to start turning circles in the middle of PCT's arrival corridor.
 
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Teller1900 said:
Do we know that they weren't already in it when they lost com? And do we know that they were aware that they were NORDO? I'd have to be damn certain that I was NORDO before I'm going to be turning away from my flight plan route; there is simply nothing in any company's OpSpecs that I've ever seen that allows for that kind of maneuver.
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What part of your company's OpSpecs allows violation of 91.185 and 93.337-341?
 
Ron Levy said:
What part of your company's OpSpecs allows violation of 91.185 and 93.337-341?
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If you're not aware that you've lost coms, what authorizes you to deviate from your flight plan to not enter the ADIZ?
 
Ron Levy said:
What part of your company's OpSpecs allows violation of 91.185 and 93.337-341?
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JeffDG said:
If you're not aware that you've lost coms, what authorizes you to deviate from your flight plan to not enter the ADIZ?
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Precisely my point. You're assuming, Ron, with no evidence that I've seen, that they were aware they had a problem from the begining and continued. I'd lay odds that they didn't know until well after the situation had progressed. I'm sure their OpSpecs say something along the lines of "Except in an emergency, the route of flight to be followed shall be that assigned by ATC..." and nowhere does it allow for circling on an airway because the freq is congested or no one is answering. You're hanging the crew for something they may very well have not been aware of.
 
Teller1900 said:
Precisely my point. You're assuming, Ron, with no evidence that I've seen, that they were aware they had a problem from the begining and continued. I'd lay odds that they didn't know until well after the situation had progressed.
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While it's possible they could have gone 15 minutes without being aware of having lost comm, despite not getting any response on the new freq to which they switched, I really doubt it, especially for a crew on a route they've probably flown many times before. But we will see what the facts are as they come out.

I'm sure their OpSpecs say something along the lines of "Except in an emergency, the route of flight to be followed shall be that assigned by ATC..."
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I'll bet there's also something in their OpSpecs requiring adherence to the FAR's.
and nowhere does it allow for circling on an airway because the freq is congested or no one is answering.
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That's not what the regs require, nor is it what I suggested.

You're hanging the crew for something they may very well have not been aware of.
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I'm not "hanging" anyone -- merely pointing out what the applicable regs require in the described situation based on available reports.
 
Teller1900 said:
.....My guess would be the switched freqs, didn't get a response right away, but heard other chatter, got busy with their decent planning, and then, when they finally realized they weren't talking to anyone it probably took them a while to find the right freq. Not at all an uncommon story, in my experience, and I don't think it would be a reason for a 121 aircraft on an IFR flight plan to start turning circles in the middle of PCT's arrival corridor.
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This is pretty much the scenario I envisioned when I first heard about the incident. Seen it happen before. Since they were already talking to approach, they probably assumed they were cleared into the airspace. You just don't hear the phrase "You are cleared into the DC SFR/FRZ". when operating into or out of DCA. And if you don't think you you are NORDO, why would you be concerned about it.

I wonder just how critical the situation actually was. Heck, they let him land at DCA and called off the interceptors before visual contact was established. If there had been any doubt about what his intentions were, they would have diverted him to someplace else and continued the intercept. I wonder if somebody jumped the gun, or the media is making more out of this than the situation warrants.
 
I'm just scratching my head about why jets are scrambled when an air carrier (or at least 121 operator) is on an IFR flight plan, squawking the proper code and loses com. They stay on the filed route and go to the filed destination.

Remember what the Smothers Brothers said about the ruling class and the rest of us? The ruling class wore more cloths and the rest of us less. Thus the more-ons were running things. Just have to wonder.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I'm just scratching my head about why jets are scrambled when an air carrier (or at least 121 operator) is on an IFR flight plan, squawking the proper code and loses com. They stay on the filed route and go to the filed destination.
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Considering that in this case, "stay[ing] on the filed route and go[ing] to the filed destination" puts them directly on course to the highest value targets we have in this country (and most likely the top targets of Al Qaida & Co.), I don't think that's an overreaction, but that's just my opinion. And if you were COMNORAD (or the NORAD duty general), with your career on the line, I'll bet you'd do the same.
 
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D.C. has gotten so sensitized about this and jumping at shadows that they evacuated everyone for a C150. Big surprise they'd do it for an airliner. I still think its daft that D.C. is verboten to GA but giant airliners are OK.
 
Ron Levy said:
Considering that in this case, "stay[ing] on the filed route and go[ing] to the filed destination" puts them directly on course to the highest value targets we have in this country (and most likely the top targets of Al Qaida & Co.), I don't think that's an overreaction, but that's just my opinion. And if you were CINCNORAD (or the NORAD duty general), with your career on the line, I'll bet you'd do the same.
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To pick a nit...no such thing as CINC-NORAD anymore.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=42568
 
JeffDG said:
Speaking if which...isn't NORAD traditionally a USAF Command:
Admiral James A. Winnefeld, Jr., USN
Commander
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Traditionally the CINCNORAD has been a USAF person but at least twice has been a USN person. The Deputy CINCNORAD is always Canadian. The commander has to be approved by the Senate. What I do not know is who NORAD reports to. The USAF and RCAF seem to have a lot of the operational management responsibilities but the organization itself also seems to do things that would violate the posse comitatus act such as tracking drug flights. Perhaps they get around that as it is a flight that starts outside of the US. At any rate that is a discussion for another thread.
 
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