Mid-Air at KBDU

Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

Can you fly a Cirrus 300' AGL???

Yes, yes you can. I've seen the Cirrus students fly their 747 sized patterns which included substantial time at low altitudes. It's ugly but it is what it is. I just extend my pattern and call "you guys are hard to see" to the Cirrus on a long (a couple miles long) final.
 
Some reports said the Cirrus struck the tow rope itself, but others say the Cirrus and the tow plane collided, which would explain the damage seen on both aircraft while still aloft.

According to Ruben Bakker, the glider pilot, it was a direct hit between the Cirrus and the Pawnee with a immediate explosion.
 
Okay then, so you don't have a valid argument. Fine. See ya around, dude.
LOL I try to be a little humorous when the thread derailed and you use it against me. ;)

OMG milk just came out my nose!
Glad to see someone got the joke :rofl:

Wow only 154 posts until someone mentioned Hitler or the Nazis!
No comment Pete. LOL

According to Ruben Bakker, the glider pilot, it was a direct hit between the Cirrus and the Pawnee with a immediate explosion.

Let's hope they never knew what happened. Hopefully we can all come away having learned or been reminded of something by the tragic loss of three good men.
 
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Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

Some have a fusible link, at the glider end, I believe... another option is what our club uses: a rope made to break at a factor relative to the weight of the glider (I forget offhand what it is).

But it's not really relevant in this case...

[snip]

The facts are not all in yet, but from what I've seen, I think the tow plane and the Cirrus actually collided.

Photos on the local news show paint on the remains of the Pawnee. Very little of the Cirrus survived.
 
LOL I try to be a little humorous when the thread derailed and you use it against me. ;)
Last week professional circumstances required me to ride the aluminum tube to Chicago and deal with JD's and MBA's in essentially a locked room situation. You think I'm gonna cut you some slack this week? Short description: ain't happenin'. :frown2:

When it was over, the opposition's JD did address me as "Doc" :yikes: It'll be a few weeks before I'm back to normal...
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

Yes, yes you can. I've seen the Cirrus students fly their 747 sized patterns which included substantial time at low altitudes. It's ugly but it is what it is. I just extend my pattern and call "you guys are hard to see" to the Cirrus on a long (a couple miles long) final.

Cirrus pilots aren't the only ones flying 5 mile finals.
 
I just wanted to note that quote. It captures so much of the essence of any argument...

Sadly, true. And in this (and any) argument, I become somewhat one-sided myself because, of course, the stuff I agree with Steve on doesn't need defending...
 
....out of 19 certified.

(That type has the distinction of having a 100% kill rate in the NTSB database)

Fast and slick, with VERY little structure in front of the pilot. You'd probably do just as well to jump out of it if you're gonna crash! :yikes:

However, I don't know where you guys are getting that 100% fatal thing... I find 6 accidents, with 4 fatal. These two are VK30's without fatalities, one due to fuel exhaustion (duh) and one pilot error in high winds:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X23917&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X15268&key=1

Looks like two of the fatals were blatant builder errors (and people wonder why I won't buy an experimental airplane), and the final two had one botched emergency landing after an in-flight fire and one departure from controlled flight during stalls at full-aft CG.
 
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No, I have a laundry list of things that they've done right and I've had lunch with Alan Klapmeier and told him as much a few years back:
-The BRS (great idea, but the application is a little flawed, that's all)
-The "crumple zones" under the seats are a wonderful idea and probably one of the reasons the mortality rate isn't even higher in Cirrus crashes.
-Most of the avionics are what I can only hope for as a GA pilot in almost any other aircraft

The under-seat crumple zones were probably put there so the BRS can do its job - The landing gear is designed to take a lot of energy out of the "fall" as well.

Right, which goes back to a problem in marketing- you market to people who think they are Maverick, things tend to go badly when you get into a flat spin. It's not a fault with the aircraft, but then again the misguided marketing of the aircraft is as much the responsibility of the company as the problems with the design.

They're marketing it to newbies WITH a full complement of training that's actually very well thought-out... They can't help it if Maverick decides he doesn't need that training. :frown2:

1. It's not the only one with the BRS fitted to it (another little "fact" I hear the Cirrus reps like to tell, so I won't fault you for repeating it), nor was it even the first.

I know - I figured we were still trying to compare apples to apples. It is the only certified airplane that has a BRS as standard equipment. It's optional on the Symphony, can be purchased aftermarket for the C172/C182, and is also available on several light sport models as well as the ultralights.

Now it is one of the only ones with it considered standard, but the reasons for that are arguable but given that I like Mr. Klapmeier and respect the hell out of him for his efforts to make a safer plane (even if the end result has an appalling safety record...several of the subsystems in the aircraft should be considered standards by which any future design should be measured), I will take him at his word that it wasn't an engineering shortcut.

There is one and only one reason that every Cirrus has a BRS parachute.

2. Everyone makes mistakes, even you and even me. Everyone. No one is above a moment of inattention. It's this "I'm better than that guy" or "He's a ****ty pilot and I'm not because...." attitude that gets people into situations where other egotistical pilots describe THEM in those terms when they are no longer around to defend themselves.

I still contend that you'd have to try pretty damn hard to spin it in the first place. "Inattention" won't spin it.

I find it disgusting that you want to put the profits of a company ahead of the lives of our friends, colleagues and their families.

I don't give a rat's patootie about their profits, and don't you dare say I care more about them than people. :mad3:

Could have fooled me.

Do a search for posts on Cirrus prior to late July of '05, and you'll see I was once a Cirrus-basher just like you. Then, I interviewed Alan Klapmeier... And I did not hold back! But he had an answer for everything, and I gained a great deal of respect for him, his company, and his products. I was really sad to see him go, that is a great loss to the company.

Bottom line, Cirrus tries hard to bring new pilots into the fold, and they try very hard to make their planes as safe and easy to fly as possible. Sure, there's room for improvement - But there ain't a perfect plane's been invented yet. :no: So I have to give them a lot of credit for what they've accomplished.
 
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Fast and slick, with VERY little structure in front of the pilot. You'd probably do just as well to jump out of it if you're gonna crash! :yikes:

However, I don't know where you guys are getting that 100% fatal thing... I find 6 accidents, with 4 fatal. These two are VK30's without fatalities, one due to fuel exhaustion (duh) and one pilot error in high winds:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X23917&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X15268&key=1

Looks like two of the fatals were blatant builder errors (and people wonder why I won't buy an experimental airplane), and the final two had one botched emergency landing after an in-flight fire and one departure from controlled flight during stalls at full-aft CG.

6 crashes, 6 fatalities = 1:1 kill ratio

The fatalities where not evenly distributed among the crashes. Yes, the causes where not all design related, but even the build quality issues make me wonder how much of a resource the kit manufacturer was to the builders. People in RVs kill themselves with stalls on final and the like, I don't recall hearing too many dying of broken welds or forgotten parts.
 
6 crashes, 6 fatalities = 1:1 kill ratio

You said "That type has the distinction of having a 100% kill rate in the NTSB database" when the previous percentages posted in this thread were the ratio of fatal crashes to total crashes, thus implying that every VK30 crash was fatal... At least that's the impression you gave me until I went and looked it up myself. Only 2/3 of the crashes were fatal, but half of those had 2 people (and 2 fatalities).
 
This thread has wavered a bit, but I some research on percentage of fatals accidents in Aeroncas.

:yikes:

I'm surprised how many low level stalls, etc, etc were not fatal. The vast majority have some injury, but it was far from what I was expecting.

Kinda made me feel better. :yesnod:
 
You said "That type has the distinction of having a 100% kill rate in the NTSB database" when the previous percentages posted in this thread were the ratio of fatal crashes to total crashes, thus implying that every VK30 crash was fatal... At least that's the impression you gave me until I went and looked it up myself. Only 2/3 of the crashes were fatal, but half of those had 2 people (and 2 fatalities).

Stickler ! :)





It sounds better the way I wrote it. Kind of like Cirrus Marketing.

Reality:

This is a bugsmasher with a couple of electronic doodads and a deice system, maybe some of the junk helps you to not kill yourself on a good day.


Cirrus Marketing:

Here is your laser-guided all-weather personal travelling pod which will allow you to descend into Aspen during freezing rain and tornadoes in the dark of night in total safety. Flying 2.0 at it's best.
 
Stickler ! :)

Damn skippy! :yes: ;)

Reality:

This is a bugsmasher with a couple of electronic doodads and a deice system, maybe some of the junk helps you to not kill yourself on a good day.


Cirrus Marketing:

Here is your laser-guided all-weather personal travelling pod which will allow you to descend into Aspen during freezing rain and tornadoes in the dark of night in total safety. Flying 2.0 at it's best.

:rofl:

I prefer an update to an old saying: "The Cirrus is the safest airplane in the world - It can just barely kill you."
 
Back on topic, more here.

Denver Post said:
Rodi has interviewed the occupants of the glider. Their memories of the accident match signs of damage she noted on the Pawnee, she said.
Streaks of blue paint on a section of the right wing where it met the fuselage suggest the Cirrus struck the Pawnee from above. The Cirrus appeared to be descending as the Pawnee climbed toward 10,000 feet, where the glider was to be released.
 
The under-seat crumple zones were probably put there so the BRS can do its job - The landing gear is designed to take a lot of energy out of the "fall" as well.
Per Klapmeier himself, they were not solely put in for that reason. It was based on a recommendation from one of his engineer friends solely to reduce injury independent of the CAPS. However, it now serves a dual purpose (although the end points are both the same, i.e. reducing severity of injury).

Then, I interviewed Alan Klapmeier... And I did not hold back! But he had an answer for everything, and I gained a great deal of respect for him, his company, and his products. I was really sad to see him go, that is a great loss to the company.
I too respect the hell out of Klapmeier and cringed the day he left the company because now they don't have the one person who might have done something beneficial towards addressing these issues. He's a reasonable, intelligent and pretty charming fellow. However, that does not change the evidence that shows something is flawed in the execution of his admirable plans.

Last week professional circumstances required me to ride the aluminum tube to Chicago and deal with JD's and MBA's in essentially a locked room situation. You think I'm gonna cut you some slack this week? Short description: ain't happenin'.
Having given a deposition (as a witness) a while back and remembering why I believe 95% of personal injury lawyers are servants of the Dark Lord himself, I completely understand your frustration with that situation but don't take it out on me. But that is then and this is now...and I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.

And who was his pilot? Are you, or are you not, a known German?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Baur :rofl:

Here is your laser-guided all-weather personal travelling pod which will allow you to descend into Aspen during freezing rain and tornadoes in the dark of night in total safety. Flying 2.0 at it's best.
Please tell me that's not a direct quote....I hope you're being hyperbolic but sadly I could see them using something like that.
 
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CRap...the CBS one shows both guys in the Cirrus jumping.

Did anyone else notice that their animation also appears to have the Cirrus as the towplane? Also I didn't see anything that looked like a body come out of the aircraft in the video you linked to. There was what appeared to be a piece of structural component fluttering behind the aircraft in some of the first frames but it wasn't a body.

Why are we so sure they jumped and didn't fall out of the plane?

Honestly, the Cirrus looked to be upside down on the way down under the chute so the bodies probably fell out after their restraints burned through or otherwise came loose.
 
Please tell me that's not a direct quote....I hope you're being hyperbolic but sadly I could see them using something like that.

I have to admit that I sligthly 'augmented' it (the laser-guided part).

When they gained FIKI certification for the TKS, they went out and did directed marketing to their core constituency. If you have any kind of professional license (doc, lawyer, cpa) and a pilots license, Cirrus will pepper you with glossy brochures on a regular basis. One of them was the 'flying 2.0' bit, one of the stories in there indeed revolved around 'having to make it into Aspen through 12000ft of icing'. By the way they wrote it, I thought they where describing the new G250 or some other midsize bizjet and not a bugsmasher.
 
CRap...the CBS one shows both guys in the Cirrus jumping. :(

I don't see what you're referring to. At 2:15?? There's "something" fluttering off on the right, but it's falling at the same speed as an aircraft under canopy, so I don't think that's one of the occupants of the aircraft. And, I only see one "thing", not two.
 
This thread has wavered a bit, but I some research on percentage of fatals accidents in Aeroncas.

:yikes:

I'm surprised how many low level stalls, etc, etc were not fatal. The vast majority have some injury, but it was far from what I was expecting.

Kinda made me feel better. :yesnod:
Doesn't surprise me... of all the planes I've flown, the Champ is up there on the list of "planes I'd most like to be in during a crash"... probably #2 behind the Schweizer 2-33. The key factors are: "slow" and "steel frame". :D
 
The key factors are: "slow" and "steel frame".
Pretty much. Now if you just could get those seats from the Cirrus bolted into a more sturdy frame....

Jumped, fell... either way, it's a very bad deal. But being on fire can make you do strange things... I guess instinct takes over.
Judging by some things I was told by some acquaintances involved with the response to this crash (non-NTSB contacts), it seems there was 'evidence' (for lack of a better subtle description) found that the occupants of the Cirrus did not "jump" from the aircraft, the effects of fire on instinctual reaction notwithstanding.

Even if I was at liberty to disclose the precise information I was told, let's just leave it at that in case friends or family of the victims come across this thread. Regardless, we really should not be speculating about the last moments of these men. It's horrible enough that they died, but if we don't have concrete proof that they were alive and conscious on the way down we should not be feeding the idea of them leaping to escape the fire.
 
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Steve....thanks for the insight. I have suffered first/second degree burns and it was one of the most painful experiences of my life. I simply cannot imagine the horror...the pain.....but you are right, I will not dwell on it for the sake of the family, and myself.

It appears I was wrong about the video, but I do not know if that is a good thing or not. :(
 
No matter where the blame lies, one thing is for sure: that footage of the Cirrus descending in flames is just plain grim. :nonod:
 
No matter where the blame lies, one thing is for sure: that footage of the Cirrus descending in flames is just plain grim.

It made my blood run cold the first time I saw it and it still gives me bad goosebumps when I see it.
 
I was a member of a glider club just north of St Paul Minnesota some years ago. There was an airway that went right through the airspace above Bensons Airport where the club was located. Back in about 1982 the governors airplane (A King Air I believe) flew in between the Super Cub and the glider. How did they know it was the govs airplane? Because the glider pilot had a students view of the N number on the side of the King Air.
 
I was a member of a glider club just north of St Paul Minnesota some years ago. There was an airway that went right through the airspace above Bensons Airport where the club was located. Back in about 1982 the governors airplane (A King Air I believe) flew in between the Super Cub and the glider. How did they know it was the govs airplane? Because the glider pilot had a students view of the N number on the side of the King Air.

And quick focus abilities, apparently. I doubt anybody'd be able to read the N-number off a plane that passed 100' in front of them, perpendicular to your course, at King Air speeds (even traffic pattern speeds); I'd think it physically impossible to re-focus that fast on an object moving laterally. I mean, you'd know it was an airplane, and maybe even what type, but I'd be surprised if one could actually read and interpret the registration.

Still, scary!!
 
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