Mid-Air at KBDU

I'd say the vis in the video of the smoking Cirrus was well into the VMC range.

There's VMC and then there's VMC. Sunday started out as IFR with freezing fog, mist,
etc over most of the state (Colorado). As the day progressed, it cleared up to VMC for a while then went back to IFR. The Low is settled over the 4 Corners area, and the storm
was already on its way from the SW into the Front Range area. Friends went into Platte Valley (18V) about 3 pm and hurried back to FTG because the ceilings were dropping and the weather was just plain flakey.
 
There is see and avoid and see and avoid. If it's VMC it's see and avoid. Look outside or burn to death.
 
I was flying out of KBDU yesterday right after this happened. The tug pilot was only around 25 and according to a friend he was "just a really solid guy." It was sad to hear about and everyone seemed to be a bit on edge over the radios.

For example, on take off I announced to Boulder Traffic "Boulder Traffic, Cessna n###SP, Departing 8, VFR to the North." Right after lift off, a glider pilot started bitching at me (almost yelling) through traffic abt announcing intentions. My instructor and someone else commented over traffic that everything was announced properly.

We immediately got out of the area after take off as there was no point in sticking around. All we would have done was provided extra anxiety to the gliders in the area.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

It's sad because glider activity is clearly listed on the sectional. Apparently, KBDU needs more regulation.
 
Look outside or burn to death.

Let's hope the poor bastard(s) in the Cirrus didn't live long enough to realize they were on fire. There are few things that terrify me quite so thoroughly as the idea of burning alive.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

According to friends (pilots) and various local news reports the tow plane pilot saw it coming and released the glider just in time - a definite heroic act! Also, there is speculation that the Cirrus was not on the Boulder frequency and did not know there was glider activity in the area.
An Example of shiny screen fixation.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

needs more regulation.

I really hope you jest.
More regulation is the standard (kneejerk) response by the regulators - suprising, no?
 
Let's hope the poor bastard(s) in the Cirrus didn't live long enough to realize they were on fire. There are few things that terrify me quite so thoroughly as the idea of burning alive.


Multiple eyewitnesses report them jumping from the burning wreckage as it descended under the BRS.

I'll be sleeping with my parachute on tonight.

And not smiling like that dumb photo to the left
 
I read where the 3 surviviors were all in the glider? Pilot, and a woman and her 11 year old son. Can you "legally" fly with 3 in a two place glider? This is way besides the report, but the questions came up at the Sat B-fast.

There are 3 place gliders.. and the club there has one.. a Schweizer 2-32.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

An Example of shiny screen fixation.

Probably,in fact I'd bet a dollar on it, although they could have been doing a number of things besides keeping their exterior scan going.

But the point about what freq they were monitoring is moot.
The radio does not keep you safe in VMC- looking outside does. It definitely makes it worse when you are in a terminal area and you're not on the appropriate freq, but again, it doesn't matter as much as looking outside the aircraft. Use every piece of glass available... look, look, look.

Gliders are able to- and allowed to- fly well outside "areas of glider activity" as marked on sectionals... a glider is just another aircraft (or two when on tow), and you gotta look out for them, just as you'd look out for anything else.

This accident will probably spur more interest in requiring TCAs for everybody... yet another gizmo that will mostly distract people from looking outside.
 
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Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

This accident will probably spur more interest in requiring TCAs for everybody... yet another gizmo that will mostly distract people from looking outside.

Outside of the guys who go into the waves, few gliders have transponders. Short of a target acquisition radar, nothing will show a glider, ultralight or J3 except a pair of mark1 eyeballs.
 
There are 3 place gliders.. and the club there has one.. a Schweizer 2-32.
z

Mile High Gliding has 2, club has at least 1, and there may be 1 other in private hands.
 
I was flying out of KBDU yesterday right after this happened. The tug pilot was only around 25 and according to a friend he was "just a really solid guy." It was sad to hear about and everyone seemed to be a bit on edge over the radios.

For example, on take off I announced to Boulder Traffic "Boulder Traffic, Cessna n###SP, Departing 8, VFR to the North." Right after lift off, a glider pilot started bitching at me (almost yelling) through traffic abt announcing intentions. My instructor and someone else commented over traffic that everything was announced properly.

What's really bad is that MHG's gliders fly nordo (or at least they did when I took a ride with them about a year and a half ago). I guess they think that all they need are tow plane calls and the returning gliders aren't a hazard. Maybe now they'll wake up.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

People seem to think that just looking outside means you're going to see another plane that may be in conflict. I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. Frequently (too frequently for comfort) I'll get a call from ATC about traffic between 1/2 mile to 2 miles that neither Leslie nor I can locate. Believe me, our eyes are entrirely outside the cockpit and we can't find the target!

Plus, even if I find a target, I don't automatically look behind it to see if there's another target, maybe connected via a cable. I'm focusing on avoiding the target I have in sight. Granted, if he saw it and was able to identify it as a Pawnee he should probably have made the logical conclusion that it was towing, given that the Cirrus pilot was apparently local and knew about the glider operations charted in the area.

People are talking about a collision between the tow rope and the Cirrus. If so, then the Cirrus avoided the Pawnee, whether he actually saw him or not.

I guess I'm just not comfortable with everyone assuming that they had their eyes inside the cockpit and were somehow negligent by not looking for traffic. And unfortunately we probably will never know for sure. :(
 
What's really bad is that MHG's gliders fly nordo

I guess there is some sort of attraction to a no radio flight... in a non congested environment. However, the Boulder area is certainly not in that group on a nice weekend day.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

People are talking about a collision between the tow rope and the Cirrus. If so, then the Cirrus avoided the Pawnee, whether he actually saw him or not.

I think 'people' who discuss that are wrong. An impact into the tow-rope may have brought down the Cirrus due to entanglement but the rope would have just torn off the tug. He must have hit that Pawnee, possibly with that wing that is seen folded underneath on the video footage.
 
What's really bad is that MHG's gliders fly nordo (or at least they did when I took a ride with them about a year and a half ago). I guess they think that all they need are tow plane calls and the returning gliders aren't a hazard. Maybe now they'll wake up.

I don't believe that this accident happened in the pattern, no amount of honking with your radio would have made a difference.
 
I don't believe that this accident happened in the pattern, no amount of honking with your radio would have made a difference.

The point is to avoid the next accident...

As to whether or not radio calls would have helped prevent the current accident, well the glider folks sure seem to think so. It is normal to call position over IBM when inbound to BDU from the north. But of course you are free to think whatever you like.
 
What's really bad is that MHG's gliders fly nordo (or at least they did when I took a ride with them about a year and a half ago). I guess they think that all they need are tow plane calls and the returning gliders aren't a hazard. Maybe now they'll wake up.

But it didn't happen in the pattern. The glider was on tow. That makes two aircraft about 200 feet apart in trail. Not hard to spot, really. And more than likely the towplane pilot announced the takeoff, and direction they were climbing in.

I use my handheld in the glider, but we fly a pattern that is lower and closer to the runway, so when returning, I, at least, have never come into conflict with any power traffic in the pattern, and never made or heard a radio call that made as much difference as looking outside the glider.

Outside the pattern, I am often maneuvering in an area that puts me near traffic approaching KEWR from the south- outside the Class B. They are often between 2500-3500, even that far out. Lots of potential there for conflict.
But even if ATC has a NOTAM about us, that doesn't mean glider and airline pilot alike are exempt from looking outside. More than once I've seen them and they apparently see me and we both maneuver a hair, with ample room, and everything is fine. I know gliders are hard to see head-on, but we're usually banking in a fairly tight turn, presenting a huge white wing.

But even if the glider had a tx, readable by their TCAS, and I were being tracked by and talking to ATC, that doesn't exempt anybody from looking outside. Even if I were within the class B for some crazy reason and under their control directly, I still have to look outside.

I stress the "looking outside" part in this case because even without knowing the angles involved, I am positive this terrible tragedy could have been avoided by.... yes, that's right.
 
Multiple eyewitnesses report them jumping from the burning wreckage as it descended under the BRS.

I'll be sleeping with my parachute on tonight.

And not smiling like that dumb photo to the left

Yeah, this sort of accident brings home the fact that you don't have to be doing aerobatics to need a 'chute... could make all the difference after a midair.
 
I stress the "looking outside" part in this case because even without knowing the angles involved, I am positive this terrible tragedy could have been avoided by.... yes, that's right.

I'll add one amendment to your advice -- don't be shy about pushing the nose down and/or S-turning to see what's ahead. Every airplane has blind spots until you change the picture and see what was previously blocked.
 
Back in the day the V35 was THE aircraft for the successful young professional to use for going skiing, golfing, etc. it was called "the fork tailed doctor killer' for a reason...
There is nothing inherently bad or wrong about the Cirrus...The Cirrus is merely the replacement of the V35 for the yuppies of today... Now, whether this Cirrus was piloted by one of those legendary 'yuppie' and was the cause of this accident remains to be seen in the NTSB report next year...

However, I will note that of the several Cirrus I am acquainted with at our local airports, only one has a pilot that I would agree to go flying with...

denny-o
 
Back in the day the V35 was THE aircraft for the successful young professional to use for going skiing, golfing, etc. it was called "the fork tailed doctor killer' for a reason...
There is nothing inherently bad or wrong about the Cirrus...The Cirrus is merely the replacement of the V35 for the yuppies of today... Now, whether this Cirrus was piloted by one of those legendary 'yuppie' and was the cause of this accident remains to be seen in the NTSB report next year...

However, I will note that of the several Cirrus I am acquainted with at our local airports, only one has a pilot that I would agree to go flying with...

denny-o

As my instructor said from day one "The plane doesn't make the pilot"
 
radios are good as long as they are used and work properly, and aren't allowed to distract from flying the plane and looking outside.

The vis from most glider cockpits, especially the front seat of a 2-32 is excellent compared to the vis from most GA powered planes.

The fatal RV4 collision with glider at Boulder some years ago was not prevented by radio.

If you are descending in a Cirrus you are not going to see anything approaching at either 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock even if you ARE looking outside because the wing is in the way. That is, unless you are almost continually s-turning.

We should be counting our blessings that we have been lucky enough to avoid crashing and burning and can sit at our computers telling the world how things ought to be.

I am
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

People seem to think that just looking outside means you're going to see another plane that may be in conflict. I don't think that's a fair assumption to make.


Right on. See my post on the other thread page 3
 
If you are descending in a Cirrus you are not going to see anything approaching at either 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock even if you ARE looking outside because the wing is in the way. That is, unless you are almost continually s-turning.

Denver Post said:
The brothers took off from Boulder Municipal Airport in the older Matthews' plane around 12:45 p.m. Radar information suggests they may have just started their descent for landing when they collided with the westbound Gilmer at around 8,300 feet.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_14355506

We should be counting our blessings that we have been lucky enough to avoid crashing and burning and can sit at our computers telling the world how things ought to be.

I am
+1...
 
I am too, but we should learn from the mistakes of others.
No one knows what their mistakes were yet, although according to some here, it seems that the mistake was buying or flying a Cirrus.

Here's a thought though. The parachute seemed to have worked and lowered the airplane all the way to the ground like it was designed to do.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

I think 'people' who discuss that are wrong. An impact into the tow-rope may have brought down the Cirrus due to entanglement but the rope would have just torn off the tug. He must have hit that Pawnee, possibly with that wing that is seen folded underneath on the video footage.

That's what I thought the instant I saw the no wing picture. The handful of tow rope attachments I've seen have a release lever inside and are tensioned to come loose if they're yanked on hard enough. Bumping into a rope that's not pulling anything shouldn't be able to tear a wing off or crash the towplane.

A while back there was a video of a plane running into a towrope from the plane that hit the rope. I just wrapped the rope around the prop, the tow plane flew on and the roped up plane pulled the parachute even though the situation looked recoverable even if he didn't have a BRS. It would have been a creepy recovery however he would have probably been alright.
 
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No one knows what their mistakes were yet, although according to some here, it seems that the mistake was buying or flying a Cirrus.

Here's a thought though. The parachute seemed to have worked and lowered the airplane all the way to the ground like it was designed to do.

We don't know precisely why they didn't see each other, but we do know there was a mid air collision in VFR conditions.

Why? We'll never know, but if we see, we'll avoid.
 
I wonder if this works:

genthumb.ashx

genthumb.ashx

genthumb.ashx

genthumb.ashx


All these pictures are from a banner running besides this article on the 9News Denver website (so copyright yadayada, attribution, not mine, ,for informational purposes only, I don't earn any money of this) :

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=132322&catid=339

Puts some faces to the tragedy.
 
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Why? We'll never know, but if we see, we'll avoid.
Do you think it's possible to see, in all situations? Like some other posters here, there have been a number of instances where ATC has called out traffic, I see it on the TCAS but I never get any visual contact even though I have a good idea of where to look. I think there are definite limitations to "see and avoid" which a lot of people seem to want to gloss over because that would mean that it's out of your control, at times.
 
Re: Towplane/Cirrus mid air in Boulder

A while back there was a video of a plane running into a towrope from the plane that hit the rope. I just wrapped the rope around the prop, the tow plane flew on and the roped up plane pulled the parachute even though the situation looked recoverable even if he didn't have a BRS. It would have been a creepy recovery however he would have probably been alright.

That video was some sort of ultralight/microlight and he went into the taught rope between the plane and the glider. The dynamics may be different with a cirrus. Still, I don't think hitting the rope would have led to instantaneous combustion of two planes.
 
Do you think it's possible to see, in all situations? Like some other posters here, there have been a number of instances where ATC has called out traffic, I see it on the TCAS but I never get any visual contact even though I have a good idea of where to look. I think there are definite limitations to "see and avoid" which a lot of people seem to want to gloss over because that would mean that it's out of your control, at times.


Of course not! We can reduce risk, but not eliminate it.

I'm not -- nor have I been -- arguing the Cirrus pilots are at fault. I'm not defending them either.

Yet cutting off all discussion because "we just don't know" isn't helpful, either.
 
Like I mentioned earlier up in the thread, visibility at 3:30pm, a couple of hours after the accident, was very different from our "normal" Front Range visibility. I flew from KBJC to KFNL, over Boulder and Longmont, and it was very difficult spotting traffic co-altitude or lower, due to haze and foggy/cloudy patches hanging in the lower areas. Coming back to KBJC at 4:45, I had the airport in sight at about 5 miles. Sounds like good vis, but normally the fuel tanks at KBJC are visible at 10nm+ ...
 
Like I mentioned earlier up in the thread, visibility at 3:30pm, a couple of hours after the accident, was very different from our "normal" Front Range visibility. I flew from KBJC to KFNL, over Boulder and Longmont, and it was very difficult spotting traffic co-altitude or lower, due to haze and foggy/cloudy patches hanging in the lower areas. Coming back to KBJC at 4:45, I had the airport in sight at about 5 miles. Sounds like good vis, but normally the fuel tanks at KBJC are visible at 10nm+ ...

we have those milk-haze days here often. I file on those days.
 
Question: If it is still legally VFR (but crappy viz), and you file IFR, aren't you still resposible to see and avoid as PIC?

Sure!! But IFR I have an extra set of eyes looking, and if it's really bad I'll tell them "unable, IMC" if they call out traffic and there's no way to spot it.
 
Yet cutting off all discussion because "we just don't know" isn't helpful, either.
Helpful to what? It isn't helpful to the investigation because we are not the ones investigating. Last year after the Colgan crash there was all kinds of discussion here about tailplane icing which, I suppose, was helpful to people who weren't aware of it, but as far as the investigation goes, that was not found to be the cause at all. However, in this case, everyone knows you are supposed to be looking outside for other airplanes when it is VMC. That piece of airspace north of KBJC has been a congested area for small airplanes ever since I moved here, 30 years ago.
 
Helpful to what? It isn't helpful to the investigation because we are not the ones investigating. Last year after the Colgan crash there was all kinds of discussion here about tailplane icing which, I suppose, was helpful to people who weren't aware of it, but as far as the investigation goes, that was not found to be the cause at all. However, in this case, everyone knows you are supposed to be looking outside for other airplanes when it is VMC. That piece of airspace north of KBJC has been a congested area for small airplanes ever since I moved here, 30 years ago.

OK, fine. I don't know why you think *I* am positing a cause of the accident, because I haven't. :nonod:

I agree we should all be sensitive immediately after these tragedies, but this is a web board about flying, and pilots will discuss accidents -- immediately and for a long while after.

The only take-away I have from this weekend's midair is "Look out for traffic!" Does this lesson imply somehow that these pilots weren't looking out?

Not really.
 
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