Weak IFR Clearance Skills

[Ted]

Liz, I'm becoming less and less impressed with your instructor if he lets you feel like an idiot when you're learning. The nuances of radio work are not always obvious, and if you've never done it before, you can't be expected to know.

My preferences are as follows:

1) Pick up clearance in the air. I do this whenever it's good VFR around my origin. I know Ron doesn't like it, but it works well in less populated areas and still works fine for me in populated areas. I've never had any issues with it. I've even picked up a clearance that I canceled due to stupid routing that the controller was unwilling to change when I got past the area with bad routing.

2) Use a ground frequency or a local phone number. What that is varies - I usually find that asking the people at the airport helps, because whatever I've seen published is not always correct. Chances are the people there know what works.

3) 1-888-766-8267. My cell phone plugs into my headset, I'll call then when I start the engines and while I'm waiting on hold do my runup and taxi so when they clear me I'm good to go. Expect to be on hold for 5 minutes, which is why I call them at engine start saying I'm ready to go right then.

Also be familiar with canceling your IFR clearance from an untowered field when you can't cancel in the air. Do this promptly to make ATC happy (and the guy sitting in a holding pattern waiting for you to say you've landed). The procedures are generally the same, but sometimes the ATC controller will give you a phone number to call to cancel IFR on the ground to keep things moving faster. Usually, he'll do this just as you're lining up with the ILS.

It's good to know the procedures at your airport. At mine, you can get New York Center on the ground to cancel if you land after hours. That's also how I'd pick up my clearance if I were taking off after hours, but I've never departed the airport that late (or early).

 

[azure]

Last time I was there the GCO at Bellaire (ACB ) was working and would connect you to ATC (Minneapolis).

Right, there are a few GCOs left. I think OZW is the only one in SE MI though.

What I was wondering about in that quote, though, was RCOs that connect to ATC. Jeannie posted back in '05 that PHN was trying to get their RCO back after their GCO went permanently OTS and was then removed. I was wondering if there even were any RCOs for clearance delivery in MI.

I'm confused about BEH because Airnav shows it as having ground and tower frequencies, yet it's in Class E airspace and neither the A/FD nor the Michigan Airport Directory show ground or tower frequencies. I thought maybe the tower had been decommissioned recently (or commissioned) and the CLNC frequency was (still?) locally manned. The MAD says that the CLNC and APP/DEP freqs are remoted to SBN, so apparently the 119.7 CLNC outlet is (or was) a true RCO.

I wonder if there are any others closer to home?

 

[flyersfan31]

1) Pick up clearance in the air. I do this whenever it's good VFR around my origin. I know Ron doesn't like it, but it works well in less populated areas and still works fine for me in populated areas. I've never had any issues with it. I've even picked up a clearance that I canceled due to stupid routing that the controller was unwilling to change when I got past the area with bad routing.

I don't think it's Ron who doesn't like it. Philly Approach doesn't like it. Can't say about NY Approach. On any given day, Philly won't even respond to a VFR calling in. There goes the clearance -- now you have to try and get FSS, and it becomes a hassle.

Out west, I've had them ask me to get airborne first. Even one time at Orange County NY. Never in Philly - only a lecture.

 

[poadeleted20]

Note: a Clearance freq in the AF/D is no guarantee. They publish one for Phila Wings (my field) and it doesn't work, there are hills betw the airport and Philly Intl.

Hills between your location and the TRACON shouldn't matter, because this freq should be a transmitter/receiver/antenna setup on that airport with a hardwire to the TRACON. However, Philly Approach has a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for not listening to the surrounding airport CD RCO's, requiring you to call them on the phone to get them to turn the volume up, after which you can get them on the radio.

 

[poadeleted20]

1) Pick up clearance in the air. I do this whenever it's good VFR around my origin. I know Ron doesn't like it,

It's not that I don't like it, but rather that there's a significant chance you won't get your clearance that way, and you'll need to carry on VFR until the controller gets the time or airspace (they may have to wait for another plane to cancel IFR or clear the airspace, or for you to get where their radar can see you and the other plane) to fit you in, or you get into a less busy sector where the new controller may not have your strip handy. As long as you can deal with that, it's a perfectly good option, but if a delay in getting your clearance (or having to resubmit the data for the new sector) will put you in a box, it would be unwise to take off without your IFR clearance in hand.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm confused about BEH because Airnav shows it as having ground and tower frequencies, yet it's in Class E airspace and neither the A/FD nor the Michigan Airport Directory show ground or tower frequencies. I thought maybe the tower had been decommissioned recently (or commissioned) and the CLNC frequency was (still?) locally manned.

I wouldn't go by anything other than the A/FD, the current edition of which indicates that there is no tower (decommissioned, I'd guess, given what you posted), but that there is an RCO to South Bend TRACON to pick up clearances (and cancel IFR) on the ground.

BTW, just because it's Class E airspace doesn't mean there isn't a tower. There are towers with no Class D, some of which are at airports with only E-to-the-surface, and some of which are even at airports in G-space. See 91.126(d) and 91.127(c) for the rules on those.

 

[jxdrl]

I've yet to find an RCO in MI that goes through to ATC. There is a CLNC freq. at BEH (untowered) that might qualify, though it's not labeled as an RCO in any directory I've tried.

That does go to South Bend Clearance. I guess you would call it an RTR since it goes to ATC vs. FSS - according to the wiki earlier but it's the same thing. I've used it before. BEH has some ground outlets tied in to the Goshen VOR and CHI approach when South Bend closes.

The Clearance Delivery to South Bend is an RCO or an RTR although I've never heard anyone say RTR until I read that wiki. Even then, I haven't been flying too long but did just finish my IR in MI and almost stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[flyersfan31]

Hills between your location and the TRACON shouldn't matter, because this freq should be a transmitter/receiver/antenna setup on that airport with a hardwire to the TRACON. However, Philly Approach has a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for not listening to the surrounding airport CD RCO's, requiring you to call them on the phone to get them to turn the volume up, after which you can get them on the radio.

Interesting. I've always assumed they just couldn't receive, because i know you can't pick up Departure until you're around 1100ft off 6, a little lower off 24. If they have the volume turned down at their end, well, that's just plain obnoxious.

No need to have them on the radio, once they're on the phone with you they get you the clearance. Sure would be nice not to have to monkey with the phone though.

 

[Ted]

I don't think it's Ron who doesn't like it. Philly Approach doesn't like it. Can't say about NY Approach. On any given day, Philly won't even respond to a VFR calling in. There goes the clearance -- now you have to try and get FSS, and it becomes a hassle.

Philly approach is a specific pain. I've had them make me wait on the ground at PNE for 10 minutes or more before letting me depart while I'm sitting there burning AvGas. I wait for a bit and then take off VFR and pick up my clearance in the air if the weather allows it. Sometimes I've had to wait until Allentown before getting my clearance, but once again that's on days when that's an option. I've had times when it wouldn't be (at least not comfortably) and so on those days I just wait it out and grumble.

It's not that I don't like it, but rather that there's a significant chance you won't get your clearance that way, and you'll need to carry on VFR until the controller gets the time or airspace (they may have to wait for another plane to cancel IFR or clear the airspace, or for you to get where their radar can see you and the other plane) to fit you in, or you get into a less busy sector where the new controller may not have your strip handy. As long as you can deal with that, it's a perfectly good option, but if a delay in getting your clearance (or having to resubmit the data for the new sector) will put you in a box, it would be unwise to take off without your IFR clearance in hand.

You've stated heavily against it in the past, Ron. While the negatives are always possibile, it's not a problem I've ever had. I also make the caveat that I only do that in good VFR, i.e. when I can keep on flying if need be for at least a good part of the trip.

 

[azure]

I wouldn't go by anything other than the A/FD, the current edition of which indicates that there is no tower (decommissioned, I'd guess, given what you posted), but that there is an RCO to South Bend TRACON to pick up clearances (and cancel IFR) on the ground.

Apparently so. It's still seems a little strange to me though, because the current MAD went to press end 2008/early 2009 yet shows no tower, while Airnav claims to have information current as of this update cycle (17 Dec) and it does show tower/gnd freqs. I'm too lazy to sift through the NOTAM pile to find out if a tower was just recently commissioned since the A/FD went to press, but that seems like a pretty remote possibility. My guess is that the tower went away some time ago, and Airnav's info just isn't as current as they claim.

BTW, just because it's Class E airspace doesn't mean there isn't a tower. There are towers with no Class D, some of which are at airports with only E-to-the-surface, and some of which are even at airports in G-space. See 91.126(d) and 91.127(c) for the rules on those.

Yup, e.g. KGOV (Grayling Army Airfield) which had a part-time tower in Class G below 700 for the longest time. I think they finally got their Delta airspace sometime last year.

 

[flyersfan31]

Philly approach is a specific pain. I've had them make me wait on the ground at PNE for 10 minutes or more before letting me depart while I'm sitting there burning AvGas.

that's a problem at PNE. I did the same thing as an Angel Flight. I figured jeez, if anyone should get a little courtesy it would be an Angel Flight. Nope. Glad I have A/c in the plane.

The problem is, you probably won't get your clearance until you're in Allentown or Maguire airspace if you do depart VFR, because I'm pretty sure Philly won't answer the phone.

 

[gismo]

Right, there are a few GCOs left. I think OZW is the only one in SE MI though.

What I was wondering about in that quote, though, was RCOs that connect to ATC. Jeannie posted back in '05 that PHN was trying to get their RCO back after their GCO went permanently OTS and was then removed. I was wondering if there even were any RCOs for clearance delivery in MI.

I'm confused about BEH because Airnav shows it as having ground and tower frequencies, yet it's in Class E airspace and neither the A/FD nor the Michigan Airport Directory show ground or tower frequencies. I thought maybe the tower had been decommissioned recently (or commissioned) and the CLNC frequency was (still?) locally manned. The MAD says that the CLNC and APP/DEP freqs are remoted to SBN, so apparently the 119.7 CLNC outlet is (or was) a true RCO.

I wonder if there are any others closer to home?

AFaiK, pretty much any time there's a clearance delivery frequency listed for an airport without radar services (TRSA, Class C, Class B) it will be via a RCO. My Jepp data shows 119.7 as an RCO to the SBN TRACON.

 

[Ted]

that's a problem at PNE. I did the same thing as an Angel Flight. I figured jeez, if anyone should get a little courtesy it would be an Angel Flight. Nope. Glad I have A/c in the plane.

I've had it on a check ride, an Angel Flight, and an animal rescue. Unfortunately I don't have AC in the plane, and all three were on boiling hot days. At least, it was boiling hot in the Aztec sitting on the ramp!

The problem is, you probably won't get your clearance until you're in Allentown or Maguire airspace if you do depart VFR, because I'm pretty sure Philly won't answer the phone.

The one time I did it Philly did give me a clearance and had awful routing. I negotiated with Allentown and they gave me direct. Win!

I really wonder where Philly approach gets some of their routings. Anything I've gotten heading north or northeast has been awful, and I've ended up negotiating to get it changed or just canceling and going VFR.

 

[flyersfan31]

I really wonder where Philly approach gets some of their routings. Anything I've gotten heading north or northeast has been awful, and I've ended up negotiating to get it changed or just canceling and going VFR.

Northeast you get one of two routes, depending on how busy things are, as long as you are staying in approach airspace. If you file for Center airspace (above 8k ish) you get DITCH/DRIFT over the ocean.

Below that, you either get FJC-HUE-ALB thence your general direction or ARD-RBV-DIXIE-V1-JFK-BDR-ORW or BDL. Them's your choices. Oh, and they always let you cut the corner to SCOUP so you don't have to go all the way to FJC.

 

[azure]

Liz, I'm becoming less and less impressed with your instructor if he lets you feel like an idiot when you're learning. The nuances of radio work are not always obvious, and if you've never done it before, you can't be expected to know.

Hi Ted,

My CFII likes to let me make my own mistakes (within reason of course) and then correct me afterwards. It's just his style. His previous IR student really liked that about him, and it doesn't really bother me either. He might also have assumed that I knew about GCOs, since I've been around instrument rated pilots and have been trying to learn everything I could about IFR procedures for literally years and picked up on most of the radio stuff very quickly. The reason I felt like an idiot is really because I felt I should have known it. I'm pretty sure I sat in the right seat once way back when while someone tried to get the totally bolloxed PHN GCO to work, so I'm sure I knew at one time.

My preferences are as follows:

1) Pick up clearance in the air. I do this whenever it's good VFR around my origin. I know Ron doesn't like it, but it works well in less populated areas and still works fine for me in populated areas. I've never had any issues with it. I've even picked up a clearance that I canceled due to stupid routing that the controller was unwilling to change when I got past the area with bad routing.

My instructor doesn't like it either. We did it once and had to chug along for about 10 minutes waiting for our clearance, and while we were copying it the controller was stepped on more than once. DTW TRACON is very very busy and picking up in the air is just not a very good option around here. If I was flying out of somewhere close to FNT, say, that would probably be option 1 for me too.

2) Use a ground frequency or a local phone number. What that is varies - I usually find that asking the people at the airport helps, because whatever I've seen published is not always correct. Chances are the people there know what works.

Great if you come through when there's someone around, but what if you're passing through after hours?

3) 1-888-766-8267. My cell phone plugs into my headset, I'll call then when I start the engines and while I'm waiting on hold do my runup and taxi so when they clear me I'm good to go. Expect to be on hold for 5 minutes, which is why I call them at engine start saying I'm ready to go right then.

I'll put that number in my cell phone as I'll probably end up using it a lot. BTW do you know a good source for cellphone adapters? My instructor and I tried using his (fairly expensive) model a couple of times but found my headset plugs didn't make very good contact and my audio would cut in and out. Now we shut down the engine and use my cellphone on speaker. It is most definitely a pain to have to do that.

Also be familiar with canceling your IFR clearance from an untowered field when you can't cancel in the air. Do this promptly to make ATC happy (and the guy sitting in a holding pattern waiting for you to say you've landed). The procedures are generally the same, but sometimes the ATC controller will give you a phone number to call to cancel IFR on the ground to keep things moving faster. Usually, he'll do this just as you're lining up with the ILS.

Yup, it's usually around the FAF when they say to "report cancellation either on this frequency or on the ground, change to advisory frequency approved". At that point I'd still likely be IMC if I was flying the approach for real, so I just switch over. Coming back into VLL, my instructor usually has me switch back to Approach and cancel just as we're approaching the descent point (it's an LNAV-only RNAV approach). Last night we both forgot and I ended up cancelling on the ground... and yes, I know to do it promptly so as not to tie up the airspace unnecessarily.

It's good to know the procedures at your airport. At mine, you can get New York Center on the ground to cancel if you land after hours. That's also how I'd pick up my clearance if I were taking off after hours, but I've never departed the airport that late (or early).

I think the only option here is the TRACON landline number.

 

[Ted]

Northeast you get one of two routes, depending on how busy things are, as long as you are staying in approach airspace. If you file for Center airspace (above 8k ish) you get DITCH/DRIFT over the ocean.

Below that, you either get FJC-HUE-ALB thence your general direction or ARD-RBV-DIXIE-V1-JFK-BDR-ORW or BDL. Them's your choices. Oh, and they always let you cut the corner to SCOUP so you don't have to go all the way to FJC.

We must do different routes, or just have different luck. I got one that involved going up to LHY beore heading to Manchester, NH. Go figure out that one, the JFK/BDR route would've been perfect for that. I ended up canceling and going VFR over NYC at 7500 direct. I also have gotten going to somewhere in VT while heading to KART. Ended up adding 120 nm to the trip.

 

[Ted]

My CFII likes to let me make my own mistakes (within reason of course) and then correct me afterwards. It's just his style. His previous IR student really liked that about him, and it doesn't really bother me either. He might also have assumed that I knew about GCOs, since I've been around instrument rated pilots and have been trying to learn everything I could about IFR procedures for literally years and picked up on most of the radio stuff very quickly. The reason I felt like an idiot is really because I felt I should have known it. I'm pretty sure I sat in the right seat once way back when while someone tried to get the totally bolloxed PHN GCO to work, so I'm sure I knew at one time.

Ok, I may have misunderstood the situation and if you're fine with his style then that's between you two. I'd say not to feel like an idiot for not knowing something at this point, though, you're a student. I had a friend who also always flew out of towered airports (took the checkride at a non-towered airport), and had the DE walk him through how to pick up the clearance from the ground. Passed his ride, by the way, it was just something that never came up in his training.

My instructor doesn't like it either. We did it once and had to chug along for about 10 minutes waiting for our clearance, and while we were copying it the controller was stepped on more than once. DTW TRACON is very very busy and picking up in the air is just not a very good option around here. If I was flying out of somewhere close to FNT, say, that would probably be option 1 for me too.

This is also a comfort factor. Being in busy airspace does make it more difficult, especially if you're then going VFR and trying to avoid airspace on your own while listening to the radio and trying to copy clearances, etc. It does work better in less populated areas, and you'll get more comfortable with it and other high workload situations with more practice.

Great if you come through when there's someone around, but what if you're passing through after hours?

That's why I said it helps. Obviously it's not always an option. However also if you're passing through, you know what frequency you were talking to on the way in, so if you pick up in the air that's who you'll call on the way out. You can also ask them on the way in if there's a preferred number or frequency they have. Nothing wrong with asking a controller - especially since a lot of times they have info you might not find in a book. I've even had them sometimes give me a phone number and a couple of frequencies to try because they wanted to experiment with something.

I'll put that number in my cell phone as I'll probably end up using it a lot.

I do, too. I used it more when I always picked up my clearance on the ground and use it less now that I generally pick it up in the air. I use it mostly for canceling clearance these days.

BTW do you know a good source for cellphone adapters? My instructor and I tried using his (fairly expensive) model a couple of times but found my headset plugs didn't make very good contact and my audio would cut in and out. Now we shut down the engine and use my cellphone on speaker. It is most definitely a pain to have to do that.

Hmm. That is a pain. In my experience you've got two generic types of phone adapters, larger and smaller variety (I think 1/8" and 1/16"), and those have always worked with whatever phone I've tried plugging in. I've only used it with my Lightspeed 20xlc, though. The wires came with the headset and I've just used those. I'm sure the headset manufacturer would sell you more. Other option is to go with a Zulu and use Bluetooth (if your phone is equipped).

Yup, it's usually around the FAF when they say to "report cancellation either on this frequency or on the ground, change to advisory frequency approved". At that point I'd still likely be IMC if I was flying the approach for real, so I just switch over. Coming back into VLL, my instructor usually has me switch back to Approach and cancel just as we're approaching the descent point (it's an LNAV-only RNAV approach). Last night we both forgot and I ended up cancelling on the ground... and yes, I know to do it promptly so as not to tie up the airspace unnecessarily.

Good! I know usually when I get on the ground the first thing on my mind is "where's the nearest bathroom?" but I try to remember to do it promptly, even though I've never had anyone behind me.

My point was be prepared to write down phone numbers or frequencies last minute. They sometimes come up.

 

[wsuffa]

that's a problem at PNE. I did the same thing as an Angel Flight. I figured jeez, if anyone should get a little courtesy it would be an Angel Flight. Nope. Glad I have A/c in the plane.

The problem is, you probably won't get your clearance until you're in Allentown or Maguire airspace if you do depart VFR, because I'm pretty sure Philly won't answer the phone.

10 minutes? Not so bad. I waited nearly 25 minutes at SGR one day to get a clearance out. Tower asked me if I'd let the G4 behind me go out first - he was sitting for about 2 minutes less than I - I let him go.... he had a fast climbout so the additional delay for me was only 2 minutes.

Problem with SGR is that the departure to the north and west was/is knitted in/below the arrival corridors for HOU and IAH.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Liz,

Have you tried getting to FSS through the PTK VOR?

 

[poadeleted20]

Interesting. I've always assumed they just couldn't receive, because i know you can't pick up Departure until you're around 1100ft off 6, a little lower off 24. If they have the volume turned down at their end, well, that's just plain obnoxious.

No argument there. And it's always worth a try on the radio first, in case they are listening.

No need to have them on the radio, once they're on the phone with you they get you the clearance.

Except that you may prefer not to be juggling your cell phone out at the end of the runway when you're trying to get your release. They don't want to stay on the phone the whole time you're starting up, loading your route, taxiing out, doing your runup, etc. What happens is you call them on the phone, get your clearance, and get told to call back when #1 ready to go. At that point, it's a lot easier to do that on the RCO than on the phone.

 

[poadeleted20]

You've stated heavily against it in the past, Ron. While the negatives are always possibile, it's not a problem I've ever had.

Consider it a matter of experience -- I've seen it happen to me and to others, and to have resulted in accidents. Hence, I counsel caution, not "against it."

I also make the caveat that I only do that in good VFR, i.e. when I can keep on flying if need be for at least a good part of the trip.

There you go -- you only do it when you have a good Plan B, which is all I've been saying.

 

[poadeleted20]

My CFII likes to let me make my own mistakes (within reason of course) and then correct me afterwards. It's just his style.

It's a style which doesn't thrill me. I prefer "teach on the ground, practice in the air." We talk about what we're going to do and how we're going to do it, and then go fly what we talked in detail about. This helps prevent the Law of Primacy from getting in the way if a trainee does it wrong the first time -- then we have to do it correctly more times to get the Laws of Exercise and Recency to overwhelm the Law of Primacy. If the trainee makes an error in flight, I may let it go a bit in order to make a point (bad outcomes often impress upon the trainee the importance of not doing it that way), but not very far lest we waste valuable flying time going down a path that leads nowhere, and never the first time we do something.

I think the only option here is the TRACON landline number.

The national IFR number is always an option if you have phone service, but a direct line to the TRACON is always preferable if it's available.

 

[Ted]

Consider it a matter of experience -- I've seen it happen to me and to others, and to have resulted in accidents. Hence, I counsel caution, not "against it."
There you go -- you only do it when you have a good Plan B, which is all I've been saying.

Ok, I can buy that. Confusion of words.

 

[flyersfan31]

Except that you may prefer not to be juggling your cell phone out at the end of the runway when you're trying to get your release. They don't want to stay on the phone the whole time you're starting up, loading your route, taxiing out, doing your runup, etc. What happens is you call them on the phone, get your clearance, and get told to call back when #1 ready to go. At that point, it's a lot easier to do that on the RCO than on the phone.

2 things.
1) this is exactly why I have a bluetooth cellphone and aircraft headset. MUCH easier.
2) I don't usually call until I'm ready to go, runup set, initial fp set. They aren't interested in talking until you're number 1 to go anyway. They say hold for release, I wait maybe 30 secs. Most of the time its a 3-5 minute void time, which works even with traffic in the pattern.

 

[flyersfan31]

We must do different routes, or just have different luck. I got one that involved going up to LHY beore heading to Manchester, NH. Go figure out that one, the JFK/BDR route would've been perfect for that. I ended up canceling and going VFR over NYC at 7500 direct. I also have gotten going to somewhere in VT while heading to KART. Ended up adding 120 nm to the trip.

Yeah, they give you the LHY when you least want it, in my experience. You end up flying almost due east towards MHT. Usually happens at really busy times.

If it's VMC I always fly D over NYC at 7500, back at 8500. Straight line is best!!!!!

 

[gismo]

2 things.
1) this is exactly why I have a bluetooth cellphone and aircraft headset. MUCH easier.
2) I don't usually call until I'm ready to go, runup set, initial fp set. They aren't interested in talking until you're number 1 to go anyway. They say hold for release, I wait maybe 30 secs. Most of the time its a 3-5 minute void time, which works even with traffic in the pattern.

Most controllers will provide your clearance with a "hold for release" on your initial call if you say you expect to be ready within 10-15 minutes. That lets you get the route altered in your GPS, transponder set, etc. before starting or at least before completing your pre-takeoff checks. And if there's a chance that you're departure clearance will be delayed it's more convenient to learn that before you're ready to push the throttle(s) forward. AFaIK this only works if you can talk directly to ATC for the clearance and release, i.e. a relay via FSS won't do.

 

[azure]

However also if you're passing through, you know what frequency you were talking to on the way in, so if you pick up in the air that's who you'll call on the way out. You can also ask them on the way in if there's a preferred number or frequency they have. Nothing wrong with asking a controller - especially since a lot of times they have info you might not find in a book. I've even had them sometimes give me a phone number and a couple of frequencies to try because they wanted to experiment with something.

That's a really good idea, thanks. I usually feel as if I'm tying up the frequency if I ask detailed questions of ATC, the kind that go beyond what can be expressed in, umm, standard phraseology. But you're right, unless things are really busy (and after hours they generally aren't), there is nothing wrong with taking the time to explain my situation and see if the controller can help.

Hmm. That is a pain. In my experience you've got two generic types of phone adapters, larger and smaller variety (I think 1/8" and 1/16"), and those have always worked with whatever phone I've tried plugging in. I've only used it with my Lightspeed 20xlc, though. The wires came with the headset and I've just used those. I'm sure the headset manufacturer would sell you more. Other option is to go with a Zulu and use Bluetooth (if your phone is equipped).

Yup, unfortunately my cellphone is pretty low-end and doesn't have Bluetooth. The problem with my CFII's adapter wasn't that the plug size wasn't compatible, it was just poor contact as if there was corrosion or gunk on the inside surfaces of the jacks. I doubt if he mistreats his equipment though, and I'd really hate to spend money on something like that only to find it's useless. Shutting down and calling by cellphone isn't really terrible, but if they give me a release time within the next couple of minutes and a 3 minute window (and sometimes DTW Approach does that), that's just not enough time to get ready.

Good! I know usually when I get on the ground the first thing on my mind is "where's the nearest bathroom?" but I try to remember to do it promptly, even though I've never had anyone behind me.

Haha. When I'm with my CFII, the first thing on my mind is getting out my logbook and checkbook, then getting inside and finishing up the lesson. The meter is still running, I can find the loo later...

My point was be prepared to write down phone numbers or frequencies last minute. They sometimes come up.

Point taken, I hadn't realised they would give you a phone number to copy as you were coming up on the FAF. Do you really take your hands off the yoke to start scribbling at that point? Seems like a really bad time for that kind of distraction.

 

[azure]

Liz,

Have you tried getting to FSS through the PTK VOR?

No I haven't. The Pontiac RCO (which transmits over the PSI VOR) is only listed for KPTK I believe. I always assumed the transmitter was located on the field and I'd never be able to hit it from VLL, even if I could receive the VOR on the ground from there (and I'm not sure I can).

I guess what it comes down to is, is relaying through FSS with the engines running less of a pain than shutting down and talking to ATC directly with the cellphone?

I'll try it sometime, thanks.

 

[azure]

The national IFR number is always an option if you have phone service, but a direct line to the TRACON is always preferable if it's available.

Poor choice of words on my part. I should have said that the TRACON was the best option, not the only one.

 

[dmccormack]

Poor choice of words on my part. I should have said that the TRACON was the best option, not the only one.

I don't remember ever waiting more than 5 minutes for a clearance through the National number. I always call before start up and tell them I'll be ready to go in 10 minutes.

 

[flyersfan31]

I had to call FSS in Florida from Wauchula airport to get my clearance. Couldn't raise Clearance Delivery on the ground (I think it was Tampa). The woman at FSS acted as if she had never heard of picking up an IFR clearance on the ground from FSS in her life. Completely flummoxed. Couldn't understand for the life of her why I would try that, and said, "Well, I'll TRY and see what I can do."

 

[dmccormack]

I had to call FSS in Florida from Wauchula airport to get my clearance. Couldn't raise Clearance Delivery on the ground (I think it was Tampa). The woman at FSS acted as if she had never heard of picking up an IFR clearance on the ground from FSS in her life. Completely flummoxed. Couldn't understand for the life of her why I would try that, and said, "Well, I'll TRY and see what I can do."

Hmmm....

That's strange -- I haven't had that yet.

 

[azure]

Coincidence can be funny. I've been planning my long IFR XC, hoping to get it out of the way by end of the month, wx permitting. KVLL-KGRR-KMBS-KVLL, 251.3 nm direct routing, so definitely longer than 250 nm total distance. But in a 172 with 40 gallons fuel, with a Power Flow conversion burning 9-10 gph at full cruise, can't be done with reserves without a fuel stop. Cheapest fuel along the way according to Airnav is KAMN. And it has 3 RNAV approaches and a VOR approach. Beautiful!

Guess what else it has? An RCO that connects to Saginaw CLNC DEL. And here I was thinking I'd get a chance to try out the National number. Ha!

 

[poadeleted20]

2) I don't usually call until I'm ready to go, runup set, initial fp set. They aren't interested in talking until you're number 1 to go anyway. They say hold for release, I wait maybe 30 secs. Most of the time its a 3-5 minute void time, which works even with traffic in the pattern.

My experience is that it's rare receive your clearance and release that fast anywhere there's any significant IFR traffic around. Also, if you get anything other than "cleared as filed," it may take you longer than three minutes to check the new route, ensure that it's OK, load it in your system, and launch. YMMV, but I prefer to get the clearance in the chocks and then call for release when I'm number one. If nothing else, you could be blocking VFR departures while you do all that rerouting stuff in the #1 position.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't remember ever waiting more than 5 minutes for a clearance through the National number.

I've spent more than twice that with them, and then gotten a short void time. That'll get you scrambling.

 

[poadeleted20]

I had to call FSS in Florida from Wauchula airport to get my clearance. Couldn't raise Clearance Delivery on the ground (I think it was Tampa). The woman at FSS acted as if she had never heard of picking up an IFR clearance on the ground from FSS in her life. Completely flummoxed. Couldn't understand for the life of her why I would try that, and said, "Well, I'll TRY and see what I can do."

Probably one of the LockMart newbies.

 

[Speed]

YMMV, but I prefer to get the clearance in the chocks and then call for release when I'm number one. If nothing else, you could be blocking VFR departures while you do all that rerouting stuff in the #1 position.

That's my preference too. However this one airport I fly into regularly, the local controllers won't work on your clearance until you are number one, so it's a guaranteed minimum 5 minute delay on the end of a runway on a beautiful clear VFR day... Very annoying to pilots and pax when there are no other airplanes in the airspace. I tried questioning them about it once and got lectured on the frequency.

My latest technique there, though it's one I usually save as a last resort, is to take off VFR with no delays and pick up my clearance from LA once airborne. Works like a charm in that situation.

 

[RMCN172RG]

No I haven't. The Pontiac RCO (which transmits over the PSI VOR) is only listed for KPTK I believe. I always assumed the transmitter was located on the field and I'd never be able to hit it from VLL, even if I could receive the VOR on the ground from there (and I'm not sure I can).

You can also try calling through the VOR in the air and avoid the Detroit Approach congestion. I opened my VFR flight plans that way during training from PHN.

 

[azure]

You can also try calling through the VOR in the air and avoid the Detroit Approach congestion. I opened my VFR flight plans that way during training from PHN.

I'm not sure what you mean, then... are you suggesting to get a relayed clearance in the air through FSS? That sounds like it could end up being a longer wait than via Detroit Approach directly. Have you actually done this?

I almost never file VFR flight plans any more, unless I'm going somewhere there's a good chance I can't get high enough for radar coverage (like the northern 1/4 of the LP, unless it's clear below 12000). It's just too much trouble for the IMO very slender extra protection it gives.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not sure what you mean, then... are you suggesting to get a relayed clearance in the air through FSS? That sounds like it could end up being a longer wait than via Detroit Approach directly. Have you actually done this?

I think he said "VFR flight plans." ATC normally doesn't have time to open them for you, so you pretty much have to call FSS direct to do that, and talking on 122.1/listening on the VOR is one way to do that. OTOH, trying to catch an IFR clearance in the air via FSS is not something you can normally do in most of the country, although I've done it in the wide-open west when there was no ATC facility I could talk to, but it didn't happen quickly -- certainly not a good option if you're getting rapidly cornered by weather/terrain.