A Gastons Oops - Wet Field

[jmaynard]

Is it possible to get a PPL without landing on grass?

The first time I ever landed on grass was on my private checkride. The examiner asked me if I ever had, and when I said no, he had me do short and soft fields at a private airpark strip he had permission to use.

 

[SkyHog]

The road and grass beyond it aren't really supposed to be part of the runway, and AFaIK the 3200 ft length doesn't include it. Like everyone said, the runway is long enough that a landing should be easy unless there's a big tailwind. Even with a lot of water I can't imagine getting anywhere near the road on landing. IME the water makes takeoff's more "interesting" but really shouldn't affect landing a Mooney (assuming you can keep the plane going straight since you never need brakes anyway. If anything, I'd expect the soggy conditions to slow the plane faster than dry baked ground.

I'd also like to comment on the "4-1/2 inches of water on the runway". Although since I wasn't there I can't be absolutely certain but based on prior experience at 3m0, it seems almost impossible to me that there was any standing water on the NE half of the runway. I can believe that it was wet and slippery, and that there were deep puddles about 100-400 ft from the SW end but that's about it unless the river overflowed it's banks.

The day we got weathered in at Gastons 2 years ago, the water was puddled up nasty right between the office and the tie downs, and for a good portion of the way down the runway. It was easily 4 1/2 inches of water too.

One guy tried to take off in some plane and ripped up a piece of the runway. Bad move.

 

[jesse]

The day we got weathered in at Gastons 2 years ago, the water was puddled up nasty right between the office and the tie downs, and for a good portion of the way down the runway. It was easily 4 1/2 inches of water too.

One guy tried to take off in some plane and ripped up a piece of the runway. Bad move.

It could have been 4 1/2 in sections on the west side of the runway. From about 800 feet down all the way to the east end there was barely any standing water (was very soft though).

At any rate -- a wet Gastons will not cause an over-run in a light GA airplane (unless you seriously screwed up and touched down way too late). There just isn't enough energy with a reasonable landing for the water to delay it that much. It *could* cause a loss of directional control though. If anything the water and the soft ground would slow you faster (which is generally the concern).

 

[wabower]

He said he was above the trees and touched down at 70, then bounced off the hump. Do the math.

If you made a reasonable landing -- water simply could not cause you to over-run in a Mooney. OTOH, too much water could cause a loss of directional control.

 

[jesse]

He said he was above the trees and touched down at 70, then bounced off the hump. Do the math.

Yeah. He was hot. It was an energy problem caused by the pilot. Not a Gastons problem caused by their layout or their runway's water absorption abilities.

 

[tonycondon]

He said he was above the trees and touched down at 70, then bounced off the hump. Do the math.

dont forget the part where he slammed (locked?) the brakes.

 

[gprellwitz]

He said he was above the trees and touched down at 70, then bounced off the hump. Do the math.

You don't carry an extra 5 knots for the wife and kids, especially in a Mooney. I don't think we stressed to him enough to fly the numbers. At least his wife says she'll still fly with him, though not (at least yet) into a grass strip.

 

[jason]

In the interest of accuracy I would like to correct a couple of comments made here regarding AJ's statement.

• He didn't say that there was 4 1/2 inches of rain on the runway, he said that there had been 4 1/2 inches of rain at Gastons in some unspecified period before his arrival
• He didn't say that he went over the tops of the trees. He said that he came in "just below the top of the two trees"

I'll agree that every indication is that he came in hot and bounced off the bump and locked up the brakes in a panic. That said, he seems like a great guy who tried to prepare and is up front about his mistakes. As such, I think we should keep the discussion as accurate as possible.

 

[AdamZ]

My guess is Jason if he ever showed up here at POA he'd probably get a pat on the back and encouragement to get back on the horse.

 

[Diana]

My guess is Jason if he ever showed up here at POA he'd probably get a pat on the back and encouragement to get back on the horse.

Adam, I posted a link to this thread on the red board. I hope that he gets some insight into what happened, along with some additional input from a CFI in the airplane with him.

 

[wpierce]

I just got through reading the entire thread over at AOPA and followed Diana's link back to here and read all these. Wow.

I think AJ and I are about the same in experience. I might be a little closer to 200 than him but it sounds similar. I drive a 180 Cherokee and have had my PPL for a little less than 2 years. I had only landed on grass once in my training and that was a simulated engine out to the ground. I got to wondering about grass strips a few months ago and went to a friend of mine who's based at a grass strip and asked him for some pointers. He came over to where I park my plane and flew with me to his place and we did probably 5 or 6 landings and take-offs. I discovered that there isn't a lot of difference but I was still nervous about it.

Fast forward a few months and I had the opportunity to fly over to Diana's and Tom's farm. I was still nervous about grass and elected to land over at LLU, a paved airport 5 minutes from the Farm. Diana took my wife back in the Citabria and Tom (a CFI) flew back with me to make sure I didn't do anything stupid. I didn't but it was a comfort to have Tom with me to make sure I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. A few weeks later I had the privilege of flying back to the farm for Diana's Birthday Fly-in and did it all myself. We had to use another runway that day and I came in high and went around, the second time was great. (Can you do a go around at Gaston's? Nobody has said anything about it...)

I think what AJ did wrong was to go in for the first time with no prior experience. He should have gotten a CFI or someone that knows grass and flown with him a few times. The other thing that made me nervous when I read his post was when he went airborn after hitting the low spot was he pushed the nose down, I really though the next sentence would start with ...and the prop hit.

Sorry for the long post, I haven't posted here in a long time. I guess I'm trying to make up for it in one thread...

 

[Diana]

I just got through reading the entire thread over at AOPA and followed Diana's link back to here and read all these. Wow.

I think AJ and I are about the same in experience. I might be a little closer to 200 than him but it sounds similar. I drive a 180 Cherokee and have had my PPL for a little less than 2 years. I had only landed on grass once in my training and that was a simulated engine out to the ground. I got to wondering about grass strips a few months ago and went to a friend of mine who's based at a grass strip and asked him for some pointers. He came over to where I park my plane and flew with me to his place and we did probably 5 or 6 landings and take-offs. I discovered that there isn't a lot of difference but I was still nervous about it.

Fast forward a few months and I had the opportunity to fly over to Diana's and Tom's farm. I was still nervous about grass and elected to land over at LLU, a paved airport 5 minutes from the Farm. Diana took my wife back in the Citabria and Tom (a CFI) flew back with me to make sure I didn't do anything stupid. I didn't but it was a comfort to have Tom with me to make sure I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. A few weeks later I had the privilege of flying back to the farm for Diana's Birthday Fly-in and did it all myself. We had to use another runway that day and I came in high and went around, the second time was great. (Can you do a go around at Gaston's? Nobody has said anything about it...)

I think what AJ did wrong was to go in for the first time with no prior experience. He should have gotten a CFI or someone that knows grass and flown with him a few times. The other thing that made me nervous when I read his post was when he went airborn after hitting the low spot was he pushed the nose down, I really though the next sentence would start with ...and the prop hit.

Sorry for the long post, I haven't posted here in a long time. I guess I'm trying to make up for it in one thread...

Hi Wayne!

Actually, we were all glad to see you go around here at the farm...it was a smart thing for you to do. I even have it on film, but cut it out of the BD fly-in video when I started editing. Your approach looked great the next time you came around.

 

[wabower]

Fact is, he ended up in the parking lot. Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? I don't think anybody is piling on, he's a newbie who tried to do it right and just didn't get it done. BTDT.

In the interest of accuracy I would like to correct a couple of comments made here regarding AJ's statement.

• He didn't say that there was 4 1/2 inches of rain on the runway, he said that there had been 4 1/2 inches of rain at Gastons in some unspecified period before his arrival
• He didn't say that he went over the tops of the trees. He said that he came in "just below the top of the two trees"

I'll agree that every indication is that he came in hot and bounced off the bump and locked up the brakes in a panic. That said, he seems like a great guy who tried to prepare and is up front about his mistakes. As such, I think we should keep the discussion as accurate as possible.

 

[wpierce]

Hi, Diana... I'm not opposed to going around. I went around twice this weekend, once at 1J0 in Florida 75x4000 turned to base too soon and 1000 TPA (I'm used to the site picture at 800 ft at the home drome) but then I did a go around coming back home yesterday, ATC had me switch from joining the downwind to calling my base and I was too close... I'd rather go around if it doesn't look, smell, or feel right.

But, again, can you do a go around at Gaston's or are you committed?

 

[Diana]

Hi, Diana... I'm not opposed to going around. I went around twice this weekend, once at 1J0 in Florida 75x4000 turned to base too soon and 1000 TPA (I'm used to the site picture at 800 ft at the home drome) but then I did a go around coming back home yesterday, ATC had me switch from joining the downwind to calling my base and I was too close... I'd rather go around if it doesn't look, smell, or feel right.

Yeah, me too. I still do go-arounds at the farm sometimes. And so does Tom.

But, again, can you do a go around at Gaston's or are you committed?

Go-arounds work there, too.

Hey, if you and Rebecca have time, you might consider meeting us at Gaston's on Oct. 24th, or 25th (for brunch). Tom would be more than glad to meet you at BPK if you want him to fly into Gaston's with you.

 

[steingar]

The first time I went into a grass strip I was on my own. Just did it, and went around the first try because I was uncomfortable. I can still count the number of grass landings on the fingers of one hand, but I won't beg off just because it's grass. One has to be very familiar with the airplane to operate it at the edge of it's envelope.

 

[wpierce]

Yeah, me too. I still do go-arounds at the farm sometimes. And so does Tom.

Go-arounds work there, too.

Hey, if you and Rebecca have time, you might consider meeting us at Gaston's on Oct. 24th, or 25th (for brunch). Tom would be more than glad to meet you at BPK if you want him to fly into Gaston's with you.

The plane wasn't booked, so I booked it just in case. I've never been there and have wanted to, maybe we can make it this year...

There's some cool smiley's here....

 

[Diana]

The plane wasn't booked, so I booked it just in case. I've never been there and have wanted to, maybe we can make it this year...

Cool!

There's some cool smiley's here....

 

[dmccormack]

The first time I went into a grass strip I was on my own. Just did it, and went around the first try because I was uncomfortable. I can still count the number of grass landings on the fingers of one hand, but I won't beg off just because it's grass. One has to be very familiar with the airplane to operate it at the edge of it's envelope.

Last time I flew into a grass strip was back in June -- in Central PA.

I realized after I was inbound that everything is green in Central PA in June!

The only way I recognized the airfield were two white 55gal drums at the recommended approach end.

 

[gprellwitz]

(Can you do a go around at Gaston's? Nobody has said anything about it...)

Welcome back, Wayne!

Yes, you can do a go-around at Gaston's. I speak from experience.

I'm not afraid of the go-around in general. My first flight with a non-pilot passenger involved a go-around. And I did a go-around at Nassau after I wasn't lined up the way I wanted to be. All they did was ask why I was going around.

Now, if you need four or five consecutive go-arounds while actually trying to land, perhaps you should be rethinking landing on that runway!

 

[ajallee]

Gastons Oops -a very Wet Field , i am glad we all walked

Diana sent me a link to this site, and i thought it would be a good time to post, since yall are talking about me.

I posted this on the red board! but since I was being discussed here I thought I would address it as well. I believe I made every effort to plan my first grass landing, I asked pilots on the forum, and I planned this over and over, my weather info was off and I would have never made the landing knowing the amount of rain on the field. The weather.gov reported 1/4 inch rain and when I called flight service from KRBD and pulled AOPA flight plan and DUATS; they did not mention 4 and 1/2 inches of rain. I did a fly over and then we came in on [6] just below the top of the two trees, touched about 100 feet beyond the 2 rocks! (#) at about 70MPH. dropped the nose gear and immediately lifted the nose to slow her down, we hit a large dip and the plane bounced up. my stall horn actually went off thinking we were taking off, I pushed the nose down and applied full brakes at that time, the brakes locked and we were not slowing down.( sheriff measured 638 feet) Hydroplaning and floating over the wet grass. I could see 3 cars in the road ahead between the runway and another grassy area; we needed another 20 or 30 feet at that time, 2 cars pulled up and the truck just stayed put! He looked up and just froze! I maneuvered to the right and almost missed him, between the tennis court and his truck, when my left wing hit his passenger door; my plane did a 180 and came to rest on the other side. We were there for the ride and it was a terrible one! The man was an employee and everyone there was very nice. We were concerned because the glass shattered inside the.
BTW the FAA was satisfied it was an Incident due to runway conditions and case closed* Thank you all

 

[steingar]

I usually do go arounds in Spring, when I'm shaking off the rust of not flying consistently during the winter months. Last time I started out landing a 3K long asphalt strip with a sizable crosswind. I entered the pattern with another guy, I went around, then he did. I came around and greased it, he went around again. Made me feel better.

 

[steingar]

Re: Gastons Oops -a very Wet Field , i am glad we all walked

Diana sent me a link to this site, and i thought it would be a good time to post, since yall are talking about me.

I posted this on teh red board! but since I was being discussed here I thought I would address it as well. I believe I made every effort to plan my first grass landing, I asked pilots on the forum, and I planned this over and over, my weather info was off and I would have never made the landing knowing the amount of rain on the field. The weather.gov reported 1/4 inch rain and when I called flight service from KRBD and pulled AOPA flight plan and DUATS; they did not mention 4 and 1/2 inches of rain. I did a fly over and then we came in on [6] just below the top of the two trees, touched about 100 feet beyond the 2 rocks! (#) at about 70MPH. dropped the nose gear and immediately lifted the nose to slow her down, we hit a large dip and the plane bounced up. my stall horn actually went off thinking we were taking off, I pushed the nose down and applied full brakes at that time, the brakes locked and we were not slowing down.( sheriff measured 638 feet) Hydroplaning and floating over the wet grass. I could see 3 cars in the road ahead between the runway and another grassy area; we needed another 20 or 30 feet at that time, 2 cars pulled up and the truck just stayed put! He looked up and just froze! I maneuvered to the right and almost missed him, between the tennis court and his truck, when my left wing hit his passenger door; my plane did a 180 and came to rest on the other side. We were there for the ride and it was a terrible one! The man was an employee and everyone there was very nice. We were concerned because the glass shattered inside the.
BTW the FAA was satisfied it was an Incident due to runway conditions and case closed* Thank you all

Dude, a pat on the back, and nothing more. Seriously, you performed as well as you were able, and sought advice and did planning beforehand. it got away from you this time a little bit, but I really feel as you gain more experience with your airplane you will be able to do this and more. A bunch of us just came back from a fly-in at a 2600ft strip with obstructions on either end, and I even had my issues. But you walked away, and the airplane will fly again. The FAA didn't get its collective panties in a wad. The only thing I will say here is that some work with a CFI to explore the low speed envelope of your airplane might be a good idea. You might need to fit it into a small space in a pinch some day, so its a good idea to know how.

 

[jesse]

Re: Gastons Oops -a very Wet Field , i am glad we all walked

Diana sent me a link to this site, and i thought it would be a good time to post, since yall are talking about me.

I posted this on the red board! but since I was being discussed here I thought I would address it as well. I believe I made every effort to plan my first grass landing, I asked pilots on the forum, and I planned this over and over, my weather info was off and I would have never made the landing knowing the amount of rain on the field. The weather.gov reported 1/4 inch rain and when I called flight service from KRBD and pulled AOPA flight plan and DUATS; they did not mention 4 and 1/2 inches of rain. I did a fly over and then we came in on [6] just below the top of the two trees, touched about 100 feet beyond the 2 rocks! (#) at about 70MPH. dropped the nose gear and immediately lifted the nose to slow her down, we hit a large dip and the plane bounced up. my stall horn actually went off thinking we were taking off, I pushed the nose down and applied full brakes at that time, the brakes locked and we were not slowing down.( sheriff measured 638 feet) Hydroplaning and floating over the wet grass. I could see 3 cars in the road ahead between the runway and another grassy area; we needed another 20 or 30 feet at that time, 2 cars pulled up and the truck just stayed put! He looked up and just froze! I maneuvered to the right and almost missed him, between the tennis court and his truck, when my left wing hit his passenger door; my plane did a 180 and came to rest on the other side. We were there for the ride and it was a terrible one! The man was an employee and everyone there was very nice. We were concerned because the glass shattered inside the.
BTW the FAA was satisfied it was an Incident due to runway conditions and case closed* Thank you all

AJ, thanks for the post. **** does happen. All you can do is look back upon it, learn, and move on.

I'm going to step through what you wrote above and hopefully bring some light to the issue you experienced. Keep in mind that I'm not judging you, I'm simply trying to help. I'm no expert but I have landed a good 80-100 times at Gastons wet and dry.

Your airplane makes a very poor car. Your ability to stop via brakes like you attempted requires traction. Your airplane is equipped with wings which produce lift, this lift steals from your traction.

When you first touched down on the runway your wings were producing a great deal of lift and your wheels have very little weight on them making them near worthless. When you hit that first bump and the airplane took to the sky that was your indicator that you were still producing a lot of lift. You forced the airplane back down to the ground (shoved the nose down).

That is the key part. You had to force the bird back down again. Your wings were supporting most of your weight and you simply had no traction. You fly a very slick airplane -- the only thing that was stopping you was airframe drag. A mooney doesn't have much airframe drag.

You *need* to touchdown while producing as little lift as possible. This will increase the traction on your wheels AND you'll touch down much slower with a hell of a lot less energy to manage. An airplane is an airplane and if you want to come to a stop in a reasonable distance you need to finish flying.

To sum this up--a Mooney is slick--if you touchdown fast your wings will be carrying most of your weight and you will have almost no traction to stop you. The *only* way to make your airplane land is by pulling back on the yoke. The moment you push forward you are encouraging flight. Just because your wheels are on the ground does not mean that your wings aren't flying. The water was not the primary problem. Please realize that statement. A low energy touchdown would have resulted in a better day.

Welcome to Pilots of America -- we hope to see you at the Gastons Fly-in.

 

[gprellwitz]

AJ, welcome to the Blue Board! I think you're taking it all very well. I am sure that having an incident like this is disheartening, especially after you tried hard to get all the right information before you went! I don't remember anyone discussing the possibility of a wet runway in the preflight discussions. 20/20 hindsight is great and all, isn't it? In any incident/accident, there are all sorts of things that could have been done to lead to a better (or worse! ) outcome. The important thing is to learn from the experience and not to be frightened off.

And please hang around here some! I think you'll like the folks! (And be sure to join us all next June for the Gaston's fly-in! You'll get to dazzle us with all you learned in the meantime!)

 

[jason]

My guess is Jason if he ever showed up here at POA he'd probably get a pat on the back and encouragement to get back on the horse.

I agree.

Fact is, he ended up in the parking lot. Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? I don't think anybody is piling on, he's a newbie who tried to do it right and just didn't get it done. BTDT.

I'm not saying that your conclusions are wrong, I'm saying that your facts leading to them were wrong. In fairness to AJ, he's handling this well. The least that we can do is accurately report on what he's said regarding the incident and believe him. I don't think he's given us any indication that he's hiding anything or fudging any facts to make himself sound less at fault. You saying that he went over the trees is in direct conflict to what he said and I was just pointing that out for the benefit of others that may be following this thread but may be unable to access his original statements.

 

[steingar]

And please hang around here some! I think you'll like the folks! (And be sure to join us all next June for the Gaston's fly-in! You'll get to dazzle us with all you learned in the meantime!)

Where are my manners? Yes please, I think you'll like this forum. You're less likely to get flamed or tick off the mods.

 

[AdamZ]

AJ I saw the Red board posts you made. You really did try to get as much info as you could. What Can ya say you learned a lesson and frankley so did a lot of others just be reading about it. Hang in there, no one got hurt and pick up and move forward.

And by the way. hang out some here at Pilots of America its a good place to be.

 

[EdFred]

AJ I saw the Red board posts you made. You really did try to get as much info as you could. What Can ya say you learned a lesson and frankley so did a lot of others just be reading about it. Hang in there, no one got hurt and pick up and move forward.

And by the way. hang out some here at Pilots of America its a good place to be.

Well.....once you get past all the lawyers.

 

[wpierce]

AJ one other thing that I haven't seen posted, as soon as you can after touch-down lose your flaps, that puts more load on the tires where breaking will work better. The flaps were producing lift taking the weight of the plane off the tires.

I'm glad you're still reading and posting, you will learn more this way than by avoiding it.

 

[gprellwitz]

AJ one other thing that I haven't seen posted, as soon as you can after touch-down lose your flaps, that puts more load on the tires where breaking will work better. The flaps were producing lift taking the weight of the plane off the tires.

I'm glad you're still reading and posting, you will learn more this way than by avoiding it.

But do that extremely carefully in a retract!

And I too am glad you're still engaged!

 

[Anthony]

Well.....once you get past all the lawyers.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[wpierce]

Grant, I'm in learning mode now... Why? Is it so you don't confuse the knob for the gear and the flaps, or is it hard on a retract gear to put the weight on sooner?

 

[tonycondon]

Grant, I'm in learning mode now... Why? Is it so you don't confuse the knob for the gear and the flaps

that's it.

 

[gprellwitz]

Grant, I'm in learning mode now... Why? Is it so you don't confuse the knob for the gear and the flaps, or is it hard on a retract gear to put the weight on sooner?

that's it.

As Tony said. There's a squat switch that's supposed to prevent raising the gear on the ground, but it's not always reliable, especially before the airplane's weight is entirely on the gear. In some planes, the switch is in the nose gear, which is of course the last thing (in a nose-dragger) to be fully planted. Additionally, there are a few planes (early Beech, IIRC) that have the two switches "reversed", that it they have the flaps to the left of the gear.

Because of these factors, many schools go so far as to prohibit touch and goes in retractable gear aircraft. AJ's incident will be much less expensive than had he raised the gear while landing. Though you could fairly argue that there would have been less chance of injury had he just buried the prop in the runway!

 

[EdFred]

That's why I love me the johnson bar!!!!!!

Aint no confusing the gear switch (which is behind the yoke) with the big ole handle in front of the seats.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Grant: you're correct, it is the early Beechcraft. I was flying one that was one way, and one that was the other at the same time (I mean, of course, alternating flights). Never had a problem, but really did pay attention. The flaps switch is flat; the gear lever has a hole in the middle. If one only used a finger in the middle for the gear, it's difficult to confuse them.

That being said, I have had a time or two where I was late getting the gear down. Tower reminded me once, and another time, I just rechecked on short final and it was still up. In each case, the normal landing procedure had been altered--sped up for a jet behind once and tower was trying to get me in ahead of another plane the other time. Between looking for traffic, making adjustments out of normal sequence and the distractions on the radio, getting the gear down can get pushed back.

Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

Grant, I'm in learning mode now... Why? Is it so you don't confuse the knob for the gear and the flaps, or is it hard on a retract gear to put the weight on sooner?

It's the chance of inadvertently raising the gear combined with the extremely limited benefit (with electric flaps). There's also the issue of looking inside the airplane when you should be looking outside during the rollout. But when you can operate the flaps (ala Johnson bar) without looking at the switch that's not a problem. OTOH if you have electric flaps and gear, you'd BETTER look at the flaps switch before touching it just to be certain it's not the gear switch. You might think that you wouldn't operate the gear switch accidentally since they usually have a different feel/shape and often require a different motion (pull then move) but it' been shown that our brains learn the "muscle memory" needed to operate a control allowing us to operate it "correctly" when it's not the control we intended to operate at all.

If the flaps are Johnson bar controlled and the flaps provide a significant increase in lift) this technique is effective and safe. It's a trick employed quite commonly by "bush pilots" in big wheeled fixed gear taildraggers that has no place in the operation of a slick retractable IMO. A companion trick for takeoff from a short firm runway is to start the takeoff with little or no flaps to minimize drag then yank on enough flaps to pop the plane into the air immediately.

In a Mooney I'd be willing to bet the difference in landing distance would amount to something well shy of 100 ft and in AJ's case I seriously doubt attempting to raise the flaps would have eliminated the first big bounce at all.

Of course if AJ had accidentally raised the gear (not likely if the gear is a Johnson bar either) he probably would have stopped well short of the road (sorry AJ, couldn't resist).

 

[SCCutler]

The plane wasn't booked, so I booked it just in case. I've never been there and have wanted to, maybe we can make it this year...

There's some cool smiley's here....

Cool smileys for cool people...

 

[gismo]

AJ I saw the Red board posts you made. You really did try to get as much info as you could. What Can ya say you learned a lesson and frankley so did a lot of others just be reading about it. Hang in there, no one got hurt and pick up and move forward.

Ditto. It's clear that you tried very hard to learn all you could about the landing before leaving. Unfortunately sometimes bad things happen to good pilots. I also think you deserve a lot of credit for owning up to the "incident" and responding positively to all this (mostly constructive at least by intent) criticism.

And by the way. hang out some here at Pilots of America its a good place to be.

Ditto on that too.