Pirates yet again with an American ship

ReverendSlappy said:
The 5" shells cost next to nothing. Getting the ships there to send those 5" shells downrange onto the right target costs a lot.
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Except those ships are already there,& since we have already spent the money needed for this action acttually firing a few 5' shells costs us next to nothing. The time for action is NOW. DaveR
 
The fact remains that while Cpt. Phillips does not want to die ,I'm most certain that he would rather die from the bullet of a NAVY SEAL than some pos third world pirate.They will go after the US flagged ships like it means nothing unless you kill them fast and hard ( like 3 days ago) :sad:
 
As much as we make fun of the French, it seems they have the fortitude to act. they have a "red line", across which no French kidnapped citizen is allowed to be transported past. No French on somali soil. At the loss of only one hostage, several others were freed and more kidnappers captured and remanded for trial in France. And many of us have said the French have no testicals. BS.So i guess an armed responce DOES WORK!!!!!!!!!!!! DaveR
 
Anthony said:
Marines should not be placed on merchant ships. They should be on U.S. Navy vessels disguised as merchant ships. Why is this so difficult to do?
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1. If one just goes by random chance, the odds of a Q-Ship being attacked by the pirates is extremely low...about 0.2% in a year. If 1/4th of the entire Navy is Q-ships, one will be attacked every five years. I think the Navy has better uses for its budget.

2. The pirates have a fairly sophisticated intelligence network, so they're not likely to attack your Q-Ship anyway. NEVER underestimate an opponent. Remember, even if you develop a good cover story for your Q-ship, the best you can do is raise your chance of interception to 0.2%.

That cover story will have to include a believable front company owning the ship, the ship being under contract to deliver a legitimate cargo, the crew telling the right stories in the waterfront bars before they sail, and the ship going from port to port loading and unloading legitimate cargo, instead of sailing back and forth in the target zone.

3. Q-Ships have an undeservedly good reputation. During WWI, twice as many Q-ships were sunk by submarines than vice-versa. They did even worse during WWII (three out of the 14 operating in the Atlantic were torpedoed, no subs were sunk...)

Ironically, the British WWI Q-ships depended upon the U-Boat commanders being humanitarians who would not sink a "civilian" ship without giving the crew and passengers the opportunity to safely disembark, first. Once knowledge of the Q-ships got out, sub commanders said " **** that" and started sinking all ships without warning. The only way Q-ships worked after that was to look so decrepit as to "not being worth a torpedo," and thus luring the sub to the surface to use its deck gun.

The only long-term solution is to ensure the piracy does not pay. I've already posted about having Navy ships re-capture any taken vessels regardless of threats to hostages.

The other way, of course, is point defense on the merchantmen themselves. I agree that, in the near term, defense teams of US Marines could be stationed on US-FLAGGED vessels passing Somalia.

Certainly, arms could be placed on normal merchantmen for the crews to use. But someone would have to incentivize the crew to actually *use* them. The Somalian pirates haven't routinely abused their hostages, so why should a $15,000/year deck hand on a Liberian-flagged tramp steamer risk his life and start shooting?

Ron Wanttaja
 
Arm the ships and crew. If one does get taken send the Navy Seals. They'll get the point eventually---they're not idiots--if they never get a dollar from a U.S ship and always get killed they'll find an easier prey.

With an armed crew--their only choice would be to kill the crew--and they know that killing the crew would result in them never being paid a dime.
 
Cliff said:
If I were the "man in-charge" in the White House, I would place 3 or 4 US Marines on our US civilian ships, and have them carry shoulder fired weapons similar to a SAM. After a couple of incidents, I guarantee the pirates would get the message not to hijack another vessel with a US flag on it.
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In theory, it's not a bad idea.

But, how many merchant ships do we have? How many Marines do we have?

And, further, how much does piracy cost the US per year? How much would this program cost?
 
dmccormack said:
You proved my point. Armed merchant ships are unattarctive targets for pirates.

The East India ships proved this, time after time.

And the comparison of the BEIco to BW is ridiculous.
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Suit yourself - the British East India Co. never solved its problems with pirates, either.
 
Anthony said:
Marines should not be placed on merchant ships. They should be on U.S. Navy vessels disguised as merchant ships. Why is this so difficult to do?

Pirate vessel pulls up along side and tries to board, a few Ma Deuces open up and end of story. Heck, a PT tender and three or four PT's could end this problem.
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You will get the pirates to attack these vessels how?
 
jesse said:
Arm the ships and crew. If one does get taken send the Navy Seals. They'll get the point eventually---they're not idiots--if they never get a dollar from a U.S ship and always get killed they'll find an easier prey.

With an armed crew--their only choice would be to kill the crew--and they know that killing the crew would result in them never being paid a dime...
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in ransom and they will then switch to the Malaccan model and make their money selling the ship and cargo. It would be best to avoid that, because then we don't stand a chance of dealing with it. That model is quite prevalent elsewhere in the world, has been for a long long long time. The reason it doesn't make the news is there is no "hostage crisis". No one knows anything, no film at 11, no drama to broadcast. Just dead crew and a missing ship and cargo.
 
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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
In theory, it's not a bad idea.

But, how many merchant ships do we have? How many Marines do we have?

What about mounting four 50 cal BARs on each container ship and training 2 or 3 crewmembers to operate each one? Let them practice plenty enough while passing through pirate waters to stay proficient. Then I might even be interested in sea duty.

Rick
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B2Soar said:
What about mounting four 50 cal BARs on each container ship and training 2 or 3 crewmembers to operate each one? Let them practice plenty enough while passing through pirate waters to stay proficient. Then I might even be interested in sea duty.

Rick
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IIRC, the BAR is .30 cal, you need the M2 "Ma Deuce" to step up to .50 BMG. It is the more efficient, and only effective way of dealing with it, although for a few extra bucks you can put the LF sound weapon on the ship and the pirates will be rolling on the deck puking and crapping themselves, then you can run over them. Trying to run this as a military operation is pretty low to nonexistent in value. At sea, you learn to take care of yourself.
 
Yes BMG. That is the one I was thinking of. It will really reach out and "touch" pirates! :yikes:

I got one of the three right and it was the first so not too bad for me. :loco:
 
"They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss "........ jeeez.
 
Henning said:
in ransom and they will then switch to the Malaccan model and make their money selling the ship and cargo. It would be best to avoid that, because then we don't stand a chance of dealing with it. That model is quite prevalent elsewhere in the world, has been for a long long long time. The reason it doesn't make the news is there is no "hostage crisis". No one knows anything, no film at 11, no drama to broadcast. Just dead crew and a missing ship and cargo.
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One would think that with the technology that exists these days it wouldn't be incredibly difficult to know if a ship went missing..and where it went..given the speed involved.

If I had a bunch of ships out there I'd want some GPS / sat tracking of it. If the track went off-course or if the track just disappeared I'd want to know what the hell was going on....

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious.
 
jesse said:
One would think that with the technology that exists these days it wouldn't be incredibly difficult to know if a ship went missing..and where it went..given the speed involved.

If I had a bunch of ships out there I'd want some GPS / sat tracking of it. If the track went off-course or if the track just disappeared I'd want to know what the hell was going on....

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious.
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There are several tracking systems, all which can be disabled. AIS is probably the most common automated system, but even if you know something is going wrong in real time, they don't end up any better.
 
Henning said:
There are several tracking systems, all which can be disabled. AIS is probably the most common automated system, but even if you know something is going wrong in real time, they don't end up any better.
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What we need is a constellation of LEO directed energy weapons. With enough satellites there'd always be one or more available to zap the pirates before they managed to get onboard. Of course there might be a few sticky difficulties getting that up and running, not to mention controlling it safely.
 
gismo said:
What we need is a constellation of LEO directed energy weapons. With enough satellites there'd always be one or more available to zap the pirates before they managed to get onboard. Of course there might be a few sticky difficulties getting that up and running, not to mention controlling it safely.
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There is that new non-lethal weapon with an antenna that sends a barrage of microwaves that make people standing in the beam think their skin is on fire.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18725095.600
http://www.comsol.com/industry/htmlpaper/sara_microwave_weapon/


How toasty do you like your pirate?
 
Henning said:
There are several tracking systems, all which can be disabled. AIS is probably the most common automated system, but even if you know something is going wrong in real time, they don't end up any better.
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Sure..but you generally know if it were disabled. I think arming the crew is the best choice--and then a military interception if the crew is wiped and we know.

One could install panic buttons..who knows..it would all cost money though. Ships can be annoying--I spent some time building out and supporting some IT infrastructure which was installed on a cruise ship and troubleshooting that thing over satellite internet connections when it was somewhere in the atlantic was a giant annoying pain in the ass.

It isn't perfect..but I bet the vast majority of them against U.S ships would be stopped. Like I said, it doesn't take long to realize that taking a U.S ship results in dieing. They'll choose another country at that point, and that is just fine with me.
 
gismo said:
What we need is a constellation of LEO directed energy weapons. With enough satellites there'd always be one or more available to zap the pirates before they managed to get onboard. Of course there might be a few sticky difficulties getting that up and running, not to mention controlling it safely.
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not to mention putting it into the hands of LEOs... no thanks, I don't trust most of them with the guns they have. If anyone is going to have a "Kill-O-Zap" Death Ray, I want it to be me....
 
jesse said:
Like I said, it doesn't take long to realize that taking a U.S ship results in dieing. They'll choose another country at that point, and that is just fine with me.
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As I said before, that is the correlation I would rather them not make. I would much rather it be "Waste of time no profit" at sea, or "They have guns that can harm us at a distance.". If you want to hunt them, hunt them ashore where you can actually do something proactive. Using military resources to guard against piracy at sea is a waste of resources.
 
Henning said:
As I said before, that is the correlation I would rather them not make. I would much rather it be "Waste of time no profit" at sea, or "They have guns that can harm us at a distance.". If you want to hunt them, hunt them ashore where you can actually do something proactive. Using military resources to guard against piracy at sea is a waste of resources.
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Sure. But if we find out one has been taken--we shouldn't let that stand.
 
wabower said:
An economic geography professor once lamented that we were doomed to failure when trying to make decisions rationally and legally and based on "western values" when we were dealing with people whose only basis for authority was who has the biggest stick.
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He is a brilliant man and said more eloquently what I was trying to day. That we continue to try to take actions based on a western-model with people that simply do not follow, or care to follow, our model.

So we can act all honorable and dignified while property is seized, people's lives are put in jeopardy, and the insanity continues.
 
Ddayle said:
As much as we make fun of the French, it seems they have the fortitude to act. they have a "red line", across which no French kidnapped citizen is allowed to be transported past. No French on somali soil. At the loss of only one hostage, several others were freed and more kidnappers captured and remanded for trial in France. And many of us have said the French have no testicals. BS.So i guess an armed responce DOES WORK!!!!!!!!!!!! DaveR
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Actually I have to give a BIG tip-o-the-hat to the French in this regard.
 
tdager said:
He is a brilliant man and said more eloquently what I was trying to day. That we continue to try to take actions based on a western-model with people that simply do not follow, or care to follow, our model.

So we can act all honorable and dignified while property is seized, people's lives are put in jeopardy, and the insanity continues.
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Riight! We should turn our back on our beliefs, morals, and social systems and just become a nation of thugs. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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smigaldi said:
Riight! We should turn our back on our beliefs, morals, and social systems and just become a nation of thugs. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

200px-Faceplam.jpg
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Scott...post all the cutesy pictures you want, we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. BTW, what "beliefs, morals, and social systems" are YOU talking about? Look at our history...we have done things in the past that needed doing to keep yourselves safe.

All I am saying is that you would NEVER consider playing any game against someone that follows one set of rules while you follow another. So what do you do if you cannot say "no" to playing that game but have to play it anyways?

The dirty truth is that we "need those man on the battlements" that do things we, as a society, do not want to do. We need men, on our side, that can get dirty.

I just find it funny that anytime something like this comes up people want to stand on high moral ground....so long as it is a nation-state we are talking about. Bring up a personal family member, say a wife or child, and the most staunch high-moralist will get downright NASTY to do what it takes to save their own.
 
Re: Winners and Losers

I think Peggy nailed it.

AuntPeggy said:
I was just trying to figure out who the winners and losers are in this event.

The pirates are winners. In the end they get a couple of million dollars to split amongst themselves. They get to be heroes in their home port where I understand ladies flock. Our friend Henning has pooh-poohed the downside for them.

The above-mentioned ladies are winners. Enough said.

The shipping company is not a loser. Their losses are covered by insurance. I haven't figured out whether they are winners, though.

The insurance company comes to mind as a loser, but think again. They pay off the pirates, but then they increase insurance rates to everyone in the area. In the long run, their revenues are increased, and are decreased only a relatively little by the payout.

Companies shipping goods through the pirate-infested waters are not losers. They are charged more by the shipping companies to cover their increased insurance costs, but then, those costs are added to the cost of goods sold, making at worst, a zero-sum game. Maybe they make a little more, based upon percentage of cost of goods sold.

Governments get to increase taxes based upon percentages of income. They win.

News media get into a feeding frenzy and increase their market share by covering the story. Mediators and go-betweens have probably become a growth industry. They are winners.

You and I are losers since our cost of goods purchased goes up to cover the insurance losses as trickled through the system. But our cost is spread so thin as to be unnoticible. So it doesn't count.

The crews of ships and the hostages victimized by the pirates are definite losers. PTSD is a real disease that affects crew and hostages. Include their families and friends among the losers. Not a very large constituency.

This problem won't improve until there are lots more losses or lots fewer winners.
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smigaldi said:
Riight! We should turn our back on our beliefs, morals, and social systems and just become a nation of thugs. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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Our beliefs, morals, and social systems are useless with people who only understand thuggery. We can continue to be moral, believing victims, or we can deal with the thugs in the way that they will understand.
 
jmaynard said:
Our beliefs, morals, and social systems are useless with people who only understand thuggery. We can continue to be moral, believing victims, or we can deal with the thugs in the way that they will understand.
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Correct. And as with any thug, all they understand is brute force. Unrelenting, savage, disgusting, brute force. Talking to them and trying to "understand" why they are doing this is counterproductive. They need to be exterminated. We, as a nation, do not have the will to do this anymore and therefore we will continue to be assaulted.
 
Just what we need. Another misguided giant unsuccessful military operation to deal with a problem that is social in origin. As if we haven't had enough of those already. For a problem that affects a handful of US citizens. At least its simple.
 
So...what did piracy cost the United States last year, and what would military intervention cost?
 
jmaynard said:
I suggest you ask Thomas Jefferson that question.
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A single man's action or opinion, applicable to a very specific situation, from 200 years ago in an entirely different situation is about as irrelevant as it gets.

But, it's always fun to throw around historical references we don't understand as if the luster of time and mere association with a great name somehow makes our points stronger.
 
jmaynard said:
Our beliefs, morals, and social systems are useless with people who only understand thuggery. We can continue to be moral, believing victims, or we can deal with the thugs in the way that they will understand.
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Anthony said:
Correct. And as with any thug, all they understand is brute force. Unrelenting, savage, disgusting, brute force. Talking to them and trying to "understand" why they are doing this is counterproductive. They need to be exterminated. We, as a nation, do not have the will to do this anymore and therefore we will continue to be assaulted.
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Riiiight!!

Do you also believe the best way to raise a child to be a responsible adult is to act like a child?

We have to set an example that our society actually stands for something. Else wise we are nothing but a bunch of lipsticked up thugs ourselves.

Like I said earlier.

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smigaldi said:
Do you also believe the best way to raise a child to be a responsible adult is to act like a child?
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Not the same. Children are learning, and can be guided by adults. Adult thugs are different; they've learned that thuggery works. They cannot be disabused of that notion by talking and bribery (once you pay Danegeld, you're never rid of the Dane). Only force - raw, naked power, applied in a direct manner - is understood and respected by such people. Negotiating, talking, and diplomacy are treated as unalloyed weakness. They prey on the weak.

We have to set an example that our society actually stands for something. Else wise we are nothing but a bunch of lipsticked up thugs ourselves.
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With people who understand the distinction, that makes a difference. For thugs, be they individuals or entire thug regimes, acting according to our principles just makes us principled victims.

I refuse to be a victim in my personal life. We should refuse to be a victim as a nation.
 
smigaldi said:
I refuse to be a thug in my personal life. We should refuse to be a thugs as a nation.

If you become what you abhor then you have lost what you were fighting for.
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Dealing with thugs in the manner they understand does not make one a thug. The difference is that the response is done to protect and defend, not take for personal gain.

Defending oneself with violence in response to violence is always acceptable, be it an individual or a national defense. That does not turn one into a thug.
 
jmaynard said:
Dealing with thugs in the manner they understand does not make one a thug. The difference is that the response is done to protect and defend, not take for personal gain.

Defending oneself with violence in response to violence is always acceptable, be it an individual or a national defense. That does not turn one into a thug.
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Jay keep in mind my comments are directed at tdager who is in favor of throwing away our values when dealing with these guys. I am not against defending ourselves. But I raised the issue when there was a sudden outpouring from a couple of people to throw away our morals and values and just start blowing stuff up and killing anyone who gets in our way as a good response.

This is the type of attuitude that makes you more enemies than just the ones you were dealing with. There are way to make the actions of thugs non profitable. That would be a far better use of our resources and we can do that while remaining true to what made this country great. Stooping to thugerry and lawlessnes violates everything this country was founded upon. When you do that you may have won your battle but you have lost what you were fighting for.

I can give you example of how we recently squandered our moral high ground but it would take this thread even further into SZ territory.
 
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