The impossible turn...

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
In June, one of our best friends took his homebuilt biplane up for a test flight. He had installed a new carburetor on the Chevy V8, and was having some difficulty getting the engine to run smoothly, but he thought he had the problem licked...

Mary and I had spent most of the day with him, enjoying the summer weather and discussing the new flying club we had set up together for our kids. In addition to being a grand champion home builder, he's an A&P and IA, and has worked on all of our airplanes for over ten years. It was just a great day to be at the airport, and -- after bidding him adieu -- we eagerly took to the skies in our then-new (to us) Ercoupe.

Shortly after we departed, our friend took off to the Northwest. Just a couple of hundred feet up, his engine lost power. With a road, houses, and businesses ahead, he opted to turn back to the runway...

He never made it. Too slow, too low, the plane stalled, spun, and hit hard -- thankfully on the airport property. The header tank burst, and immediately turned into a fireball. Since it was a hot day, our friend was wearing a helmet, goggles, shorts and a t-shirt. Doused in flaming gasoline (we had just topped the tanks the night before), he miraculously scrambled out of the wreckage, and rolled in the grass to extinguish the flames.

Other friends witnessed the wreck, and were on the scene in seconds. The first thing he said to them was "Call an ambulance and get me to a hospital, cuz this is gonna hurt like hell real soon." All of his hair was gone, and the skin on his arms and legs -- any area not covered -- was hanging in sheets.

By then we had landed at a nearby airport, and were enjoying a cold pop with some of the local airport bums. My cell phone rang, and it was a mutual friend telling us about the crash. We immediately started heading for the 'Coupe, but stopped short when we were told that our home airport was closed due to the crash, and we wouldn't be able to return anyway.

Amazingly, one of the "bums" we were with turned out to be a transplant surgeon with some great connections. Seeing how distraught we were, he made a few phone calls to the hospital's emergency room, and was able to tell us that our friend was, indeed, still alive. Best of all, he was expected to survive...maybe.

Two hours later, the authorities had cleared the wreckage, and re-opened the airport. We flew back as fast as our Ercoupe could carry us (not too fast!), and after landing immediately drove to the hospital, where we spent a somber evening with friends and family.

Fast forward two months. Our friend has gone through a living hell, with everything from lung to staph infections, multiple skin graft operations, weeks spent on a breathing machine, and half a dozen other "minor" (in the overall scheme of things) crises. In addition to the pain, he has had to learn how to walk, talk, eat, and use the bathroom again.

But finally, thankfully, last Thursday he came home. He's weak as a kitten, and his new skin is so delicate that he can abrade it away by resting his elbows on a table -- but he's walking, talking, and making plans to fly again! He lost two months (they kept him heavily sedated, thankfully) but he remembers every second of the crash.

He attributes his survival to the fact that he built the plane "hell-for-stout", and the wings absorbed most of the impact. In fact, if the plane hadn't burst into flames, he would literally have "walked away" with minor cuts and bruises.

This past weekend a group of us airport bums threw him a "Welcome Home!" party at the airport, and he and his wife attended. He's not 100% yet, but he was walking, talking, eating, drinking, and shooting the breeze -- just like always. He spent a few minutes in his shop, and truly seemed to enjoy himself. We can't begin to express how thankful we were to have our friend and partner back with us...

The next day the local yacht club arranged a boat regatta for him (he's also a boater), and the day after THAT we threw him a "Welcome home!" party at "Movie Night at the Inn" -- our weekly free aviation movie event that he's attended for years. (His wife is joking that she can't keep up with his social calendar now!)

So, in the end, the "impossible turn" worked out. Had he landed straight ahead, he certainly would've hit something -- or someone -- much harder, and the end result probably would have been the same, or worse. Our friend faces long months of rehabilitation ahead, and he may never be able to work as an A&P again -- but he'll certainly return to the water and the sky -- thank goodness!

:yes:
 
glad to hear that he is OK jay. i remember hearing about that crash and i know that it didnt sound too good. the good thing is that he seems to have kept the airplane flying and crashed as slow as possible into the softest object he could.
 
Jay - glad to hear he's on his way back to his activities once again!
 
Jay I am glad you friend is doing better.

A very good story but I have one question for you.


Why don't you have an aviation column somewhere? You write so well, and have so many good stories. You should be published in one of the mags or online aviation web sites.
 
Glad things are moving toward the positive, Jay. I have a friend that was burned from head-to-toe when he was in college when a room full of paint thinner fumes ignited with him inside. (Someone didn't extinguish the pilot light like they were supposed to). He has some horrible stories about going through burn treatment (including his wife at the time leaving him while he was still in the hospital) - it is NOT a good way to spend several months of your life.

It sounds like your friend is on the 'good' side now, though. Hope things keep going well for him. Good job of avoiding causing harm to others.
 
Glad your friend is doing better and hope his road to recovery only gets better.
I got burned 20+ years ago, not what your friend went through, but 6 weeks of hell was enough for me, I can imagine what it is like for him.

Keep his spirits up, that is as important as the physical recovery.

Mark B
 
Jay I am glad you friend is doing better.

A very good story but I have one question for you.


Why don't you have an aviation column somewhere? You write so well, and have so many good stories. You should be published in one of the mags or online aviation web sites.
Those jobs seem to go to people who have a lot of "cred" instead of to the ones who write very well. I get the AOPA magazine, and it's very rare to see a column article written because the writer has something to say, instead of the writer writing because he/she has a deadline to meet.
 
I have stopped flying in aircraft that have header tanks.

Jay, I hope your friend recovers his robustness. Burning really sucks.
 
...Our friend faces long months of rehabilitation ahead, and he may never be able to work as an A&P again -- but he'll certainly return to the water and the sky -- thank goodness!

:yes:

A blessed man indeed, to have such friends.
 
So, in the end, the "impossible turn" worked out. Had he landed straight ahead, he certainly would've hit something -- or someone -- much harder, and the end result probably would have been the same, or worse.

I'm very sorry to hear about your friend's accident and glad to hear he's improving with good expectations about the future. Has he ever talked about if he thinks he should have done anything differently?
 
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend's accident and glad to hear he's improving with good expectations about the future. Has he ever talked about if he thinks he should have done anything differently?

From a flying standpoint, no. He did the best he could under extremely bad circumstances.

From a mechanical standpoint, however, I'm sure he wishes he had done a few more ground tests on the new carb -- but 20/20 hindsight is always perfect, no?
 
Add another one with best wishes for your friend. It sounds like he kept his head and a positive outlook on life, and has a lot of support from everyone.

While I'm getting a little tired of hearing the first part of the story (terrible crashes) I'm glad to hear one about surviving and recovery, even if it isn't easy.

--david
 
Houses tend to have yards. I'm sure it would depend on the circumstances, though.

Exactly.

A stall spin at low altitude is never a good choice.

Controlled flight all the way to the impact at the slowest possible airspeed is what I practice and what I teach.

I am not suggesting this pilot should have done any differently, just that this story -- as tragic yet uplifting as it is -- does not convince me the turn back to the airport is ever a good idea below 700' AGL.
 
Exactly.

A stall spin at low altitude is never a good choice.

Controlled flight all the way to the impact at the slowest possible airspeed is what I practice and what I teach.

I am not suggesting this pilot should have done any differently, just that this story -- as tragic yet uplifting as it is -- does not convince me the turn back to the airport is ever a good idea below 700' AGL.

So my question would be, if the stall/spin resulted in an crash site on the airport property, wouldn't the outcome have been better if best glide or even minimum sink speed had been maintained to a short field landing - even if it was into the airport fence or parking lot? A stall reflects that the aircraft was way slower than best glide speed so distance was forfeited.
 
Exactly.

A stall spin at low altitude is never a good choice.

Controlled flight all the way to the impact at the slowest possible airspeed is what I practice and what I teach.

I am not suggesting this pilot should have done any differently, just that this story -- as tragic yet uplifting as it is -- does not convince me the turn back to the airport is ever a good idea below 700' AGL.

I agree with Dan. NORMALLY, your best bet is to "fly it as far into the crash as possible" (thanks, Bob Hoover) straight ahead. Our friend opted to do otherwise for the reasons I've already outlined, and also (I think) because there is so much more lift in a big biplane than there is in a standard Spam Can like most of us fly.

In other words, the "impossible turn" can be a lot tighter in a biplane, giving you more options and chance for success -- and he knew it. Given the fact that he actually made it back to the airport, it *almost* worked out...
 
In other words, the "impossible turn" can be a lot tighter in a biplane, giving you more options and chance for success -- and he knew it. Given the fact that he actually made it back to the airport, it *almost* worked out...

...and an excellent reason why some trial runs at altitude in each airplane at Best Glide to determine what is and is not possible.
 
...and an excellent reason why some trial runs at altitude in each airplane at Best Glide to determine what is and is not possible.

Which brings up another factor in this crash. It was early in the flying season, and (due to the fact that it was an open cockpit biplane) our friend hadn't flown it much since the previous year. Had this engine failure occurred later in the summer, he may have chosen differently -- or not.

All sorts of little things go into accidents, and -- with 20/20 hindsight -- they're more discernible. When the accident is in-progress, however, you just do what you think is best, and pray.
 
Exactly.

A stall spin at low altitude is never a good choice.

Controlled flight all the way to the impact at the slowest possible airspeed is what I practice and what I teach.

I am not suggesting this pilot should have done any differently, just that this story -- as tragic yet uplifting as it is -- does not convince me the turn back to the airport is ever a good idea below 700' AGL.
Have you actually tried it with 700' AGL? What airplane? It'll be different for every airplane. It will be different for every runway. It will be different for the amount of headwind. I've found most pilots just make up numbers and have nothing to back them up with.

I've also ran the math and with a common trainer Cessna 172 you need a runway over 3-3,500 ft to *EVER* be able to turn back (if there is no wind) I won't even consider it in a C172 without 4,500 ft of runway if there is no wind. Without the long runway, you won't be able to glide back to it and you'll crash short of the runway.

Add some headwind for takeoff and now you'll have a hard time getting down before running off the runway.

It's not an easy subject. My best advice is this: Plan your engine failure before it happens. *verbally* announce your plan if the engine quits and *TOUCH* the point on the altimeter that is your turn back altitude. Most of the time I don't set a turn back altitude because the end of the runway has places to go. If you decide that you're at an airport where you might need to turn back during a failure: Plan the altitude before you takeoff, and touch that altitude. Maybe I just suck, I wouldn't want to try and figure out with a broken engine what 700 AGL is on the altimeter at some strange airport.
 
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Have you actually tried it with 700' AGL? What airplane? It'll be different for every airplane. It will be different for every runway. It will be different for the amount of headwind. I've found most pilots just make up numbers and have nothing to back them up with.

I've also ran the math and with a common trainer Cessna 172 you need a runway over 3-3,500 ft to *EVER* be able to turn back (if there is no wind) I won't even consider it in a C172 without 4,500 ft of runway if there is no wind. Without the long runway, you won't be able to glide back to it and you'll crash short of the runway.

Add some headwind for takeoff and now you'll have a hard time getting down before running off the runway.

It's not an easy subject. My best advice is this: Plan your engine failure before it happens. *verbally* announce your plan if the engine quits and *TOUCH* the point on the altimeter that is your turn back altitude. Most of the time I don't set a turn back altitude because the end of the runway has places to go. If you decide that you're at an airport where you might need to turn back during a failure: Plan the altitude before you takeoff, and touch that altitude. Maybe I just suck, I wouldn't want to try and figure out with a broken engine what 700 AGL is on the altimeter at some strange airport.
Attaboy, Jesse, right on target. :cheerswine:
 
Jay, so sorry to hear about all your friend has gone through. This hurt to read. I'm glad he's home and doing as well as can be expected.
 
I fly an bi-plane with the glide performance of a manhole cover and a landing speed that some aircraft can't cruise at. That's not a good thing when the engine gives up so I practice an engine out to a spot/short field landing almost every time I go fly. If I miss my spot at minimum landing speed, then I do a few more until I get it right. It's not an easy thing to do and definitely requires some practice to be on your A game. And, it requires some skills you may or may not practice often like extreme slips to a landing. Do you know how hard you can slip your plane and how much cushion you have when you release it and at what air speed? Definitely an important skill because you're going to always want err on the high side for altitude. Running off the end of a runway isn't nearly as bad most places as coming up short.

Do you know how much your glide performance changes from just pulling the prop to coarse pitch? In my bird, it's a ton of difference and pushing back to fine pitch will noticeably throw you forward in your seat it slows down so quickly.

And finally, it might pay to know the difference in your plane for best glide speed vs. it's minimum sink speed. It's not a concept that's taught much in powered planes but is the bread and butter of soaring. It can be found in your L/D chart. Min sink is the best speed for a turn around or anytime you're not headed in the direction you want to go. It's usually only a few knots difference but then, as this accident shows, only a short distance might make make the difference.

I hope no one takes offense and I certainly mean none to the pilot involved in this accident. I wasn't there and it could be that he indeed did it exactly right for the circumstance. I'm just offering a few observations for talking about that might help in staying sharp for handling this kind of event.
 
Have you actually tried it with 700' AGL? What airplane? It'll be different for every airplane. It will be different for every runway. It will be different for the amount of headwind. I've found most pilots just make up numbers and have nothing to back them up with.
It's not an easy subject.

I repeat: An excellent reason why some trial runs at altitude in each airplane at Best Glide to determine what is and is not possible.

The point is NOT simply to return to the runway. The point is return to some available, unobstructed, preferably flat surface away from people and buildings. Taxiways, the grass on either side of the runway, and the overrun area will all suffice.

In the Skipper, V Tail, and A36, I know I can return to the runway in up to 10 knots headwind if I have at least 800' AGL. I've practiced it several times at altitude -- It's not easy and assumes immediate reaction to the engine out.

The C205 needs 900'. Any other airplane I use 1000' AGL.

The takeoff briefing I teach in the Skipper follows:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Taking off from Runway: ______ for Departure[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]to the : _______ [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Straight out or Cardinal Direction)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rotation Speed[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]56 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vx[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]61 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vy[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]67 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Best Glide Speed[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]68 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Emergency Landing Approach[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]63 KIAS[/FONT]


  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Lost Power < 1000‘ AGL: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Manuever to land in open area as straight ahead as possible[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Lost Power > 1000‘ AGL: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Left turn° with 45° bank angle to return to airport (downwind landing) -- Runway not required!! Grass is OK!
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](If Co-pilot) Monitor all engine instruments in the green prior to rotation[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Any Questions?[/FONT]
 
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Jay I am glad you friend is doing better.

A very good story but I have one question for you.


Why don't you have an aviation column somewhere? You write so well, and have so many good stories. You should be published in one of the mags or online aviation web sites.

Ditto to ALL what Scott wrote here. You have a gift with words.
 
Jay Dart said it best. your friend is bless to have such good friends. I wish him well.
 
I hope we see a post in the future..............."Guess what? Our friend just called, he has his medical back."
 
Actually having performed the "impossible turn" in a glider, it was a very eye opening experience. I realize that a simulated rope break (although pulling the release at 300' isn't actually simulated) in a glider is diffetent due to the much better L/D of the glider, but the thing that really got my atttention was the effect of landing downwind. If on a good headwind day I were to have a break at 300' right over the end of the rwy (possible as I fly a light glider behind a 265hp pawnee) The 180 turn would probably put me very close to the far end of the runway I just departed from.

The other thing my CFI-G constantly stresses is to have a plan on takeoff. where do you go if something happens. Additionally don't become focused on landing where you came from. in an emergency anything flat is good which isn't limited to only runways.
 
Houses tend to have yards. I'm sure it would depend on the circumstances, though.

And it looks to me like the developers usually put them on an asphalt thing called a street.

I think those of us who have 2400 foot runways at home see a few more options. (I think I used about 1000 feet on my last squeaker landing on Monday. :D)
 
I repeat: An excellent reason why some trial runs at altitude in each airplane at Best Glide to determine what is and is not possible.

The point is NOT simply to return to the runway. The point is return to some available, unobstructed, preferably flat surface away from people and buildings. Taxiways, the grass on either side of the runway, and the overrun area will all suffice.

In the Skipper, V Tail, and A36, I know I can return to the runway in up to 10 knots headwind if I have at least 800' AGL. I've practiced it several times at altitude -- It's not easy and assumes immediate reaction to the engine out.

The C205 needs 900'. Any other airplane I use 1000' AGL.

The takeoff briefing I teach in the Skipper follows:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Taking off from Runway: ______ for Departure[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]to the : _______ [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Straight out or Cardinal Direction)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rotation Speed[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]56 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vx[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]61 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vy[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]67 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Best Glide Speed[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]68 KIAS[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Emergency Landing Approach[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]63 KIAS[/FONT]


  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Lost Power < 1000‘ AGL: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Manuever to land in open area as straight ahead as possible[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Lost Power > 1000‘ AGL: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Left turn° with 45° bank angle to return to airport (downwind landing) -- Runway not required!! Grass is OK!
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](If Co-pilot) Monitor all engine instruments in the green prior to rotation[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Any Questions?[/FONT]

If you actually have numbers hard set, you don't get it (Jesse explained it very well, and I remember when he decided it was important to learn it).

Wind, runway length, and obstructions make a huge difference in the numbers you should turn back at. 900' at your home airport could be 500' at the 14,000 ft runway here. Or it could be 2500' at Gastons, all assuming no wind.

And I still say, if I have a choice of killing myself, or killing myself and the unaware family of 4 who just sat down in the backyard for a picnic, I'm gonna try the turn and know I may just kill myself.

I guess I don't like collateral damage. Maybe that's just me, Dan.
 
Oh Jay, I realize that I forgot to express my happiness that your friend is on the mend! That extensive a burn is definitely life threatening. I too am looking forward to a note saying that he's regained his medical!
 
If you actually have numbers hard set, you don't get it (Jesse explained it very well, and I remember when he decided it was important to learn it).

Wind, runway length, and obstructions make a huge difference in the numbers you should turn back at. 900' at your home airport could be 500' at the 14,000 ft runway here. Or it could be 2500' at Gastons, all assuming no wind.

And I still say, if I have a choice of killing myself, or killing myself and the unaware family of 4 who just sat down in the backyard for a picnic, I'm gonna try the turn and know I may just kill myself.

I guess I don't like collateral damage. Maybe that's just me, Dan.

I'm glad you guys are all pals but the numbers -- like any numbers in flying -- are one of two kinds -- hard physics or helpful guide.

Guess which one 1000' AGL is?

As far as collateral damage -- unless you're flying in and out of KTEB I don't know many airports without golf courses or some open space immediately after takeoff. This is probably why the local Kindergarten doesn't sit at the approach end of 26.

If it is the case at your local drome, and you're so concerned with the safety of the innocents, perhaps it's time to find another airport?

(As one who's risked his life on numerous occasions for the sake of others in fire service, S&R, and at Ground Zero, excuse my annoyance at your implication).
 
As far as collateral damage -- unless you're flying in and out of KTEB I don't know many airports without golf courses or some open space immediately after takeoff. This is probably why the local Kindergarten doesn't sit at the approach end of 26.
Hmmm. You're not flying out of the same airports I am, then. Taking off on 18 at Clow: http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?cp=41.695974|-88.129231&style=h&lvl=14&v=1 You have a couple hundred feet and that's it. Best bet is the greenway a half mile ahead, but there are often games going on there. The area on the west side of the street there has been built up since this photo was taken. Heck, just compare it with this image taken just a few years earlier: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=16&X=507&Y=5770&W=2

And how about any runway at Midway? http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?cp=41.785972|-87.752417&style=h&lvl=14&v=1
 
Hmmm. You're not flying out of the same airports I am, then. Taking off on 18 at Clow: http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?cp=41.695974|-88.129231&style=h&lvl=14&v=1 You have a couple hundred feet and that's it. Best bet is the greenway a half mile ahead, but there are often games going on there. The area on the west side of the street there has been built up since this photo was taken. Heck, just compare it with this image taken just a few years earlier: http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=16&X=507&Y=5770&W=2

And how about any runway at Midway? http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?cp=41.785972|-87.752417&style=h&lvl=14&v=1

Yep -- Midway is certainly high risk.

Looks like those others are as well.

But they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Given the choice of low level stall-spin, I'll take the golf course and trust the nimble feet and zippy carts of those athletes.
 
I'm glad you guys are all pals but the numbers -- like any numbers in flying -- are one of two kinds -- hard physics or helpful guide.

Guess which one 1000' AGL is?

As far as collateral damage -- unless you're flying in and out of KTEB I don't know many airports without golf courses or some open space immediately after takeoff. This is probably why the local Kindergarten doesn't sit at the approach end of 26.

If it is the case at your local drome, and you're so concerned with the safety of the innocents, perhaps it's time to find another airport?

(As one who's risked his life on numerous occasions for the sake of others in fire service, S&R, and at Ground Zero, excuse my annoyance at your implication).

Actually Dan--
In a high performance airplane--you might be surprised how close you are to the airport when you reach 1000 ft. It'll be *really* bad with a headwind. A simply 10 knot headwind will totally ruin your day. It shortens your groundspeed during climb keeping you closer to the airport.. Once you turn back towards the airport you gain that 10 knots in groundspeed. It takes creativity to get down without over running the airport.

Personally--I feel it is something you have to try in the proper environment to truly appreciate and understand the complexity of the problem. That said--there are too many idiot CFIs that would kill people trying to teach them.

I've seen a lot of pilots that are out of tricks with no power and full flaps. Few will slip, and even fewer will aggressively slip nose up to lose airspeed and then transition into a slip back down while aggressively doing s-turns or whatever else is needed. I personally don't do a 360 basically ever because I don't like putting my back at a target poweroff.

As far as bank angle. The steeper you go--the better off you'll be.
 
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Yep -- Midway is certainly high risk.

Looks like those others are as well.

But they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Given the choice of low level stall-spin, I'll take the golf course and trust the nimble feet and zippy carts of those athletes.

That's what we're talking about...the exception. At my home airport its all prairie, so yeah, I'll land out in the prairie, or head for the vacant road that parallells the runway. Taking off from a dense neighborhood airport...for example, KMIC, I would probably turn back to the airport, knowing I probably won't make it, rather than kill little Timmy and survive myself.
 
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I'm glad you guys are all pals but the numbers -- like any numbers in flying -- are one of two kinds -- hard physics or helpful guide.
....

(As one who's risked his life on numerous occasions for the sake of others in fire service, S&R, and at Ground Zero, excuse my annoyance at your implication).

Should I be annoyed by the implication that Jesse and I are lovers? Its already a known fact.
:D
 
Should I be annoyed by the implication that Jesse and I are lovers? Its already a known fact.
:D

at least he's moved on from me.

1000' AGL sounds like a helpful guide. In most of the light airplanes I fly you oughtta be able to do a 360 to a landing from 1000 AGL. maybe you fly heavier stuff than me.
 
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