MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not if they’re reasonable.
independent CFI airport prohibition
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Pinecone
En-Route
It depends on if there is only one FBO because the market is small. Or if they set the standards so high that only one can meet them.
But even then, that is the perogative of the airport management. As long as the standards are applied fully to the one FBO on the field.
One particular county in the same state has even more onerous regulations. I happen to have a business based in one of those airports.
Don’t be so sure that grant assurances are so readily dismissed. At a series of county airports that used to be managed by a third party, there seemed to be a preference to lease to non aviation tenants $$$ making more money for the management company. Management company disappears. County takes over, and after a complaint (s), non aviation tenants are being asked to leave lest the county reimbursed the feds for the AIP funds…
Said county also has minimum standards for “flight schools” and readily posts that non licensed CFI’s and mechanics may not operate from said airports, where airport managers issue the licenses.
A local auto body shop used to lease hangar space to paint on the field, with said owner celebrating his lack of overhead. When I have to comply with EPA, AQMD, County Hazmat and more, am I OK competing with this pirate? Hmmm no, as the standards aren’t being fairly applied. Same goes for avionics installations, etc. but CFI’s? They can readily teach at the airport office without difficulty and not causing anyone discomfort on a scheduled basis. If I owned a flight school with a fleet, I wouldn’t be bothered by the independent CFI.
My issues, if any, are protectionism of sacred cows, and airports have many, and the unequal application of rules in favor of specific privileged people - same issue, different angle.
Don’t be so sure that grant assurances are so readily dismissed. At a series of county airports that used to be managed by a third party, there seemed to be a preference to lease to non aviation tenants $$$ making more money for the management company. Management company disappears. County takes over, and after a complaint (s), non aviation tenants are being asked to leave lest the county reimbursed the feds for the AIP funds…
Said county also has minimum standards for “flight schools” and readily posts that non licensed CFI’s and mechanics may not operate from said airports, where airport managers issue the licenses.
A local auto body shop used to lease hangar space to paint on the field, with said owner celebrating his lack of overhead. When I have to comply with EPA, AQMD, County Hazmat and more, am I OK competing with this pirate? Hmmm no, as the standards aren’t being fairly applied. Same goes for avionics installations, etc. but CFI’s? They can readily teach at the airport office without difficulty and not causing anyone discomfort on a scheduled basis. If I owned a flight school with a fleet, I wouldn’t be bothered by the independent CFI.
My issues, if any, are protectionism of sacred cows, and airports have many, and the unequal application of rules in favor of specific privileged people - same issue, different angle.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
With respect, I cannot possibly see how this could be enforced. I'm not going to argue whether or not they have the authority to do this, or whether it's right, I just doubt the enforceability.
Cease and desist or even trespass may be options for enforceability, but without specific documentation and applicable ordinances, etc., to review that’s just a SWAG.
Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
This happened to me. A local pilot purchased a Cessna 182 and asked me to train him for the high-performance endorsement. I did. The FBO manager was upset and said he could refer me to the city attorney (city-owned airport) because the FBO has a contract that includes exclusivity for fuel sales, airplane rentals and flight training. He said I was "an unapproved vendor."
I wasn't too worried. The attorney wasn't going to sue me for a few hundred dollars. Besides, there had been independent instructors before me at this airport. One was the instrument instruction program where the CFII comes to you and flies in your airplane.
As it happened, not long after that event, I went to work for the FBO and have been there 13 years. During this time, I have heard the manager express that opinion several times. But I have never seen anything come of it. One local pilot purchased a Cessna 182 on amphibious floats, and had an instructor from out of town train him. Our FBO does not do seaplane training, so it would make no sense to try to prohibit that CFI from operating on our airport (which is next to a lake).
It seems to me that you can't enforce this selectively, so if the OP can find any history of an independent CFI being allowed to operate there, I'd say the precedent is clear.
I wasn't too worried. The attorney wasn't going to sue me for a few hundred dollars. Besides, there had been independent instructors before me at this airport. One was the instrument instruction program where the CFII comes to you and flies in your airplane.
As it happened, not long after that event, I went to work for the FBO and have been there 13 years. During this time, I have heard the manager express that opinion several times. But I have never seen anything come of it. One local pilot purchased a Cessna 182 on amphibious floats, and had an instructor from out of town train him. Our FBO does not do seaplane training, so it would make no sense to try to prohibit that CFI from operating on our airport (which is next to a lake).
It seems to me that you can't enforce this selectively, so if the OP can find any history of an independent CFI being allowed to operate there, I'd say the precedent is clear.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
How would they know?
I keep asking this and get crickets.
I hire independent CFIs all the time and fly with them and the owners of the airport have no idea.
Further, i do not agree that the airport has any authority to prevent me from getting training in my own aircraft just because it departed or arrived at their airport. I would make it a point to land there on every training flight if I lived nearby.
Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
They know. Other than transients, we pretty much know everyone taxiing out for takeoff and their flying routines. A strange car inside the fence, or an airplane arrives and the pilot goes to a private hangar - giveaways.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
So now you’re talking about stalking. I’m not allowed to fly with a cfi now. Ridiculous.
What kind of creepy places are you guys flying at that have nothing better to do?
Sounds to me like proponents of this want to use it to target specific people they don’t like. I don’t see any way to enforce it unless it’s personal.
Want the book answer or the real world answer? There’s a whole lot of guessing going on by everyone here, which is why I qualified my answer.
But, my answer also hinges not on the owner receiving training, but the instructor or commercial operator attempting to operate a business on the field.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
quote from the OP
That sounds far more sweeping than just not allowing a business to be operated. For the record, I have no issue with them not allowing an instructor to do ground school in the FBO, or hanging a sign, or even running a school from their hangar. I have issue with the quote above, which is far more sweeping than that.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hmmm. I may have to mea culpa here. I think I misread it. I read "their own aircraft" to mean the students. If it means the instructor's aircraft, then never mind anything I've said. I have no issue with that.
midwestpa24
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midwestpa24
Now that is one of two things, a manager that misunderstood the contract (not uncommon), or an airport violating Federal Grant assurances (assuming they have received Federal Grants). The "exclusivity" is specifically not allowed. Now overly restrictive CMS may in effect cause that, but then the FAA may say the CMS is in violation. There are some exceptions for small airports with limited facilities available, but those are the exception.
To answer the question of how the airport authority would find out, generally it's going to come as a complaint from a competitor. Maybe the airport would find out on their own, but usually it starts with a complaint.
3 or 4 times a day, the same tail number gets 8-13 gallons of fuel at the fuel pump. The credit card for the fuel is a corporate card for Fly by Night Flight Instruction, LLC, or John Doe DBA as Fly by Night Instruction.
Just one scenario off the top of my head.
We have a massive pilot shortage today.
Southwest (are you kidding?) has even taken to having their own ab initio training programs.
At Oshkosh/air venture, everyone is hiring rated pilots.
In the last month, United pilots got a 35/40% increase in pay in their contract.
Does the airport manager really have any business stifling aviation from the Federally rated pilot?
If I had a flight school tomorrow with classrooms, a fleet and instructors, and I may very well, why would I care about the over the fence flight instructor? Why should the airport manager, for that matter?
One untowered airport I have a business in gets ravaged daily by dozens and dozens of Sling Academy flights. Do they have a presence at the airport? Nope. Do they pay rent at the airport? Nope. They don’t even gas up at my airport. Robinson Helicopter does the same. So should the airport manager take issue with where the training flight originates, or where the ground instruction is given? That would make for an uncomfortable conversation for the manager, I believe…
Southwest (are you kidding?) has even taken to having their own ab initio training programs.
At Oshkosh/air venture, everyone is hiring rated pilots.
In the last month, United pilots got a 35/40% increase in pay in their contract.
Does the airport manager really have any business stifling aviation from the Federally rated pilot?
If I had a flight school tomorrow with classrooms, a fleet and instructors, and I may very well, why would I care about the over the fence flight instructor? Why should the airport manager, for that matter?
One untowered airport I have a business in gets ravaged daily by dozens and dozens of Sling Academy flights. Do they have a presence at the airport? Nope. Do they pay rent at the airport? Nope. They don’t even gas up at my airport. Robinson Helicopter does the same. So should the airport manager take issue with where the training flight originates, or where the ground instruction is given? That would make for an uncomfortable conversation for the manager, I believe…
I'm not personally familiar with the airport in question or the FBO but I believe the airport manager owns the FBO. A guy I know had some trouble trying to provide some independent instruction at that airport a few years back. Assuming that's true, I doubt the contract was misunderstood. An airport manager that owns the FBO is a clear conflict of interest in many instances, and I've seen first hand where that situation leads to a manipulation of the minimum standards to eliminate competition. I've personally had to battle an airport sponsor several times when it was clear that they were in violation of the grant assurances. I've always prevailed but it has always required outside assistance to show the sponsor the errors of their ways (and they still haven't learned).
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
This is what I was alluding to. Let's say that the ground school is done in a public library off of airport property. How would any airport go about enforcing their rule? Let's further say the CFI flies his student to another airport before beginning the instruction. Would the 'training flight' have originated at the problem airport or at the destination of the initial flight? (assuming no instruction was given until touchdown at the remote location) Are they going to try to ban a CFI from the airfield for following their rules?
Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
I work for an FBO that is owned by the airport manager. His airport manager duties are part of the agreement with the city that owns the airport. He is, in effect, an unpaid city employee who manages the airport in return for the exclusive right to sell fuel, offer training and airplanes for rental, and pilot services for a local company that owns five airplanes. He supervises the rental T-hangars, but the rent all goes to the city.
The concept of having an FBO operator manage the airport is a common one in smaller communities. It works okay in some circumstances but I’ve seen a lot of issues where the operator uses their authority as a manager to manipulate things for their gain. I’m not suggesting that is the case at your airport but it happens more often than people would like to admit.
If the airport sponsor gave your boss exclusivity on those things however, they are in violation of the grant assurances if the sponsor is receiving federal money for the airport…
very interestedly, I found an FAA answer to a complain made in 2018 regarding this particular subject at KSBA.
Not sure what KSBA answered to the FAA ?
Read the attached FAA letter directed to the KSBA Interim Director in 2018.
Not sure what KSBA answered to the FAA ?
Read the attached FAA letter directed to the KSBA Interim Director in 2018.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
They’re obviously trying to sound photosynthesis.
Clip4
Final Approach
Sure, the FBO is required to maintain a $5 million liability policy….
How do you figure?
Clip4
Final Approach
Depends of the lease agreement between the FBO and the airport. Normally the FBO is required to maintain insurance that has the airport as a named insured. $5 million is pretty much the norm for a mid sized FBO. An independent CFI is going to be hard pressed to find a CFI liability policy that will allow an airport to be named as an insured.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nope. For that matter, I don’t think “friendship” is a requirement.
That doesn’t mean they won’t try to stop it if they know about it. But when it comes down to it, it’s none of their business who I fly with or what we do during the flight.
Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
Where I work, we pretty much know who is flying every airplane and flight every day. Before I agreed to work for the local FBO, they were aware I was giving independent instruction to one of their former customers, and they were very unhappy with me.
Mtns2Skies
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Mtns2Skies
I'm a CFI. Sometimes I'm also a passenger because I like flying with friends. Are all people with CFI ratings now banned from flying with people? Sounds like an awfully murky line.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, maybe you can fly with people, but you can’t say things like “You’re about to stall” or “Lower your gear” as that would be instruction.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm based at a really busy urban airport, so that colors my perception of such things.
Brad Z
Final Approach
As someone who used to adjudicate part 16 airport compliance complaints, it really comes down to the facts of the case. The issue is conducting business at the airport, so if you're instructing but not accepting compensation then you're not conducting business at the airport.
Now if you start handing out M2S flight training business cards to every person who walks through the FBO that might be a different story.
Also, you can accept compensation if you're a member of a flying club offering instruction to another member, or if you're an employee you can provide instructor to your employer or other employees.
Personally (ie not speaking for my current or former employer ) I think the grant assurances are a bit limiting to group independent instructors with flight schools, particularly if they are not providing training aircraft (ie teaching in client's aircraft) and not teaching in facilities other than areas the client is already paying for (ie in the hangar). After all, I've never seen a flight instructor from another airport accused of violating grant assurances when they pop in to another airport on a cross country flight. I'd also argue that like aircraft maintenance, not all flight instruction is the same, and so just as I'd prefer not to have any old A&P work on my plane, I'm choosy about who conducts my flight instruction.
FWIW. When I've conducted independent flight instruction in the past, I've made it clear to my clients I was not being compensated for any instruction that took place on the ground, and yes, I know that sounds like a quacking duck but I never got kicked off an airport for violating an airport sponsor's minimum standards
.
That's an important point. An airport/FBO may have a great flight school, but they are likely not going to have CFIs on staff with the right experience to provide type transition training for every make and model of airplane. Their CFIs might not even meet the insurance requirements to teach me in my airplane. So some flexibility is clearly needed here.
- Martin
Clip4
Final Approach
Honestly, if you are giving make/model specific training in a HP/Complex aircraft the flight school does not have qualified staff, a simple request will be granted. If you want to do Cirrus transition training and they have CSIPs on staff and I can see why they would object.
Sorry, but that just doesn't work for me. Even in the simple case, why should I have to make a request, even if it might be quickly granted?
And in the Cirrus example, if I don't like the CSIP the flight school has on staff and I want to hire my own, why should I not be able to do that? I pay rent for the hangar at the airport, so I'm a paying customer. The flight school should have final say over which CFIs train in their own aircraft, but when it comes to training in my aircraft, it should be up to me to select the instructor.
Regards,
Martin
Clip4
Final Approach
Why? Because you basically are the food truck that wants to operate on the airport with a restaurant while claiming the restaurants rental agreement restricting competition doesn’t matter. An argument you only want to sell meals on limited basis or only serve food the restaurant doesn’t serve really doesn’t matter.
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Hang 4
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Hang 4
Not the right metaphor. Martin is a customer of the airport who doesn't care for the airport restaurant's food. He wants to bring some takeout from off the airport.
Clip4
Final Approach
The link is a sample FBO agreement. https://www.mdt.mt.gov/aviation/docs/sample-seeley-fbo-lease.pdf
It doesn’t say the independent CFI can’t instruct at the airport, but it does say the airport won’t let another to provide services under more favorable terms. The independent CFI, AP, ect doesn’t meet the insurance and indemnification requirements placed on the FBO.
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