Air-to-air photography?

jmaynard

jmaynard

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Jay Maynard
I've decided I want a nice air-to-air picture of me flying the Zodiac in the TRON costume. (Not much of a decision, really...) I know this will require formation flight, as well as a few other prerequisites (like a camera aircraft that can have the window open so it doesn't interfere with the image).

Where do I find out more?
 
jmaynard said:
I've decided I want a nice air-to-air picture of me flying the Zodiac in the TRON costume. (Not much of a decision, really...) I know this will require formation flight, as well as a few other prerequisites (like a camera aircraft that can have the window open so it doesn't interfere with the image).

Where do I find out more?
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You are reasonably close to this guy http://pulsevisuals.com/ He mostly does skydiving, but I've seen some of his air to air stuff too.
 
Fly out to KIPT (or maybe I'll fly out to visit you) and we'll make it happen! :)
 
I have shot air to air through windows with adequate results. (When you're shooting a jet from a pressurized turboprop, opening the window isn't really an option!) Just make sure the window is clean and you pick one with minimal distortions. Eliminate whatever light you can in the cabin soas to minimize the possibility of reflections.

Use a long lens, which will allow tight shots without getting too close, but not so long that your depth of field goes to nothing.

Avoid autofocus. Avoid auto exposure.

Avoid "flat light" days -- ie solid overcast. Also try to avoid harsh direct midday sun.

To get the solid propeller disc, the shutter speed should equal the RPM divided 60, divided by the number of propeller blades. E.g., 2400 rpm divided by 60 equals 40, divided by a 2 blade prop equals 20, or 1/20th of a second. Faster than that shutter speed and you will get only a partial disk.

Have the photog, camera ship and subject aircraft all on a discreet radio frequency. The photog controls the mission. The camera ship flies straight and level with the subject maneuvering around it according to the photog's instructions. Any camera ship maneuvers (for airspace, background, light angles etc) are requested by the camera ship pilot and commanded by the photog. Subject aircraft increases distance prior to camera ship maneuver.

Photog MUST have transmit capability to subject airplane.

Any loss of visual contact, break off and rejoin.

All maneuvers, frequencies and scenarios prebriefed. If the camera ship pilot starts looking at the subject airplane and trying to maneuver for the photog without instructions (and this happens A LOT with inexperienced camera ship pilots), abort photo mission.
 
Best bet is to check around and see if there are any FAST or FFI certified formation pilots around to do the flying, and an experienced air-to-air photog with a good stabilized camera to do the shooting. Having qualified formation pilots is the most important thing -- I can point to about half a dozen accidents involving unqualified folks trying to take pictures of an airplane in flight.
 
Depends on the quality you want. Is it gonna be in a magazine? Do what Ron/Ken suggest. Is it for your avatar on here or other web use? Find a friend with an airplane and another friend with a camera who knows how to use it. DO brief the shots and break-off procedures (unless you need a bunch of angles, you can make it as simple as keeping the planes side by side and the right plane goes right, left plane goes left). Not satisfied? Back to the pros.

DSC00234.jpg
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Depends on the quality you want. Is it gonna be in a magazine? Do what Ron/Ken suggest. Is it for your avatar on here or other web use? Find a friend with an airplane and another friend with a camera who knows how to use it. DO brief the shots and break-off procedures (unless you need a bunch of angles, you can make it as simple as keeping the planes side by side and the right plane goes right, left plane goes left).
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The accident record suggests it's not as simple as all that. As I said earlier, there are plenty of examples of fatal accidents involving unqualified pilots trying to take these shots, but no examples of FFI/FAST-certified pilots having an accident doing the same. You may get lucky, but it's just not as easy as it seems, and if anything goes wrong, it goes wrong faster than you could possibly believe. Here's some reading on the subject:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/1996/near_miss9611.html
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=6170 (and Barry Schiff is totally wrong in the linked article when he says "The formation leader probably requires the least flying skill." The formation lead requires the most, not the least, skill, knowledge, and experience to ensure s/he doesn't do anything that compromises the operation.)
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2002/fast0201.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184315-1.html
 
Ron - I think Barry meant that the lead pilot requires the least flying skill (i.e. stick and rudder) as he's not adjusting his position to anyone. He does require the most skill as an aviator, as he's in command, and his judgment and decision making count the most.

That's how I read it anyway, and it agrees with what I learned in my limited introduction to multiple aircraft coordination in the coast guard.

And yes, I'm aware that a CG formation is defined as two helos going in the same direction on the same day.
 
TMetzinger said:
Ron - I think Barry meant that the lead pilot requires the least flying skill (i.e. stick and rudder) as he's not adjusting his position to anyone. He does require the most skill as an aviator, as he's in command, and his judgment and decision making count the most.
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Well, then he's still wrong. Lead has to be the smoothest, most precise pilot in the formation or the other folks can't stay in position, and then things go south in a hurry. Further, you have to know exactly what the wingmen can and cannot handle so you don't exceed their capabilities. There's a lot of reasons the military, FAST, and FFI require you to be a wingman for quite a while before striking for lead, and these are just two of them.

Ron Levy
FFI FL-64
 
Okkay, I'm convinced that I need some formation training before I attempt this. I've never heard of FAST or FFI, though...where do I find out more?
 
DSC00234.jpg


I took that picture of Kent from a Cessna 172. I also did it without any fancy training. Keep your distance, don't be stupid, and use your zoom lens.

Find someone with a 172. You can open the window completely up by removing one screw.
 
jmaynard said:
Okkay, I'm convinced that I need some formation training before I attempt this. I've never heard of FAST or FFI, though...where do I find out more?
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Obviously, Ron's advice is very prudent. That said, I've done formation many a time without a single bit of training, and I use one key rule to do it properly:

Don't hit the other plane.

Sounds over simplified? It is, because that's all there is to it. If you're looking for fancy maneuvers like "Overhead breaks" or something else I can't think of, the training is probably a necessity. But to fly two planes near each other long enough to take a picture? "Don't hit the other plane."

This picture was taken by Kent, I believe:

DSCN2941.jpg


I have a few more too.
 
300 mm is about right for a focal length. Stay more than two ship's wingspans away, preferably three.

Morons need not apply. People get killed doing this.
 
bbchien said:
Morons need not apply. People get killed doing this.
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I try real hard not to be a moron, especially when it comes to aviation. That's why I'm going to get some training from an expert before I attempt the photo mission.
 
Actually, 16J is not slipping -- it's turning into lead (left aileron up, right aileron down, rudder deflected left) from an abreast line very low and is about to go out of lead's view underneath as well as losing sight of lead (wings eyes are almost out of view). Not a good place to be.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, 16J is not slipping -- it's turning into lead (left aileron up, right aileron down, rudder deflected left) from an abreast line very low and is about to go out of lead's view underneath as well as losing sight of lead (wings eyes are almost out of view). Not a good place to be.
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Huh? I don't see any aileron deflection, and he never went underneath me. What I do see is that the nosewheel is deflected way left, while the rudder doesn't seem to be deflected at all. Odd.
 
Wheel always used to point left in flight. I have no idea why. I see no aileron deflection either. You'll notice I'm hunkered down to see the other plane.

It ain't rocket science: "Don't hit the other plane"
 
SkyHog said:
Wheel always used to point left in flight.
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Speaking from a lot of time in the slot position, that's true only for free-castering nosewheels. Those with rudder pedal nosewheel steering either follow the rudder or have a centering mechanism when the oleo is fully extended.

And I still think the ailerons appear rolled left.
 
SkyHog said:
Wheel always used to point left in flight. I have no idea why.
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Propwash, probably... But does the Cherokee 180 have the same nosewheel steering system as the Archer? 'Cuz the Archer has pushrods IIRC, which would mean that the rudder and nosewheel would follow each other.

And like Ron said... Most will center at full extension. Odd.
 
SkyHog said:
Wheel always used to point left in flight. I have no idea why. I see no aileron deflection either. You'll notice I'm hunkered down to see the other plane.

It ain't rocket science: "Don't hit the other plane"
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I was flying your Cherokee from the right seat in that picture. We never passed underneath Kent and I don't remember that day for crap to say much more (over 2 years ago). It's basically impossible for that Cherokee wheel to be pointed to the left with the rudder completely straight. Unless Nick's airplane was seriously broken.
 
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jesse said:
I was flying your Cherokee from the right seat in that picture. We never passed underneath Kent and I don't remember that day for crap to say much more (over 2 years ago). It's basically impossible for that Cherokee wheel to be pointed to the left with the rudder completely straight. Unless Nick's airplane was seriously broken.
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So there's NO way you could have had Kent's plane in sight, correct? You were relying on Kent and Nick to tell you what the positional situation was. And of course Kent, being in the left seat of his 182, would have been unable to see you too, relying on the photographer to tell him where you were.

Having done a little loose formation work at Gaston's this year, I know that my pucker factor was getting up there, even though most of the time we were separated by miles. The only time we got relatively close was when I accelerated past the archer on its right side from above, and broke away to the right in a descent. Felix was a few miles in trail at that point and, IIRC, had us both in sight. It was a planned move, and we talked through what we were going to do beforehand (over the radio). We did NOT have a good contingency plan in case something went wrong. I think that that's where Ron's training really comes into play.
 
gprellwitz said:
So there's NO way you could have had Kent's plane in sight, correct? You were relying on Kent and Nick to tell you what the positional situation was. And of course Kent, being in the left seat of his 182, would have been unable to see you too, relying on the photographer to tell him where you were.
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Uh no. I had Kent in perfect sight the entire time. Seriously--Kent and I have taken air-to-air pictures of each other countless times now and neither of us have ever been uncomfortable. If you look carefully you can see me leaning forward.

Maintain reasonable distance, maintain visual contact, and don't crash. Easy :)
 
gprellwitz said:
So there's NO way you could have had Kent's plane in sight, correct? You were relying on Kent and Nick to tell you what the positional situation was. And of course Kent, being in the left seat of his 182, would have been unable to see you too, relying on the photographer to tell him where you were.
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I *was* the photographer on that one, and I could see him just fine.

Also, if you look closely, you can see Jesse's face in the windscreen, kind of under the OAT probe.

It's zoomed in too. Here's a couple pics that give a better idea of our true separation (The one with my wing, for one, isn't zoomed in).

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jesse said:
I was flying your Cherokee from the right seat in that picture. We never passed underneath Kent and I don't remember that day for crap to say much more (over 2 years ago). It's basically impossible for that Cherokee wheel to be pointed to the left with the rudder completely straight. Unless Nick's airplane was seriously broken.
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That's right, you were flying, my bad (it was a long time ago).

Even in the other pictures, you can see the wheel canted to the left. On that plane, the nosewheel turns with the rudder, even in flight, so maybe there was some sort of rigging issue. When landing, the plane never veered off (unless I forgot to straighten the rudder before touching the nosewheel), so I dunno.

Every in air shot I have of that plane has the nosewheel pointed left.

Since you and I did formation flight (loose, very loose) flying around Minneapolis, I was hoping you might have remembered if it was doing it then too. Long shot, I know, since it was years ago and I'm sure you didn't really look at the nosewheel.
 
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When it comes to maneuvers such as this, I think I'm gonna defer to the guy who has experience slamming thirty-thousand pounds into a steel deck at 120 knots and full power while trying to catch a two-inch wire with a hook.
 
Weird. I'm trying to picture how a person in the front left seat of a high-wing and a person in the front right seat of a low-wing could have kept one another in view. I'm just having difficulty envisioning the angles! And Kent, you were on the left seat of the left plane taking pictures? Wow.
 
gprellwitz said:
Weird. I'm trying to picture how a person in the front left seat of a high-wing and a person in the front right seat of a low-wing could have kept one another in view. I'm just having difficulty envisioning the angles! And Kent, you were on the left seat of the left plane taking pictures? Wow.
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Well, next time you can come along and be the photog and I'll show ya the angles. ;)
 
KennyFlys said:
When it comes to maneuvers such as this, I think I'm gonna defer to the guy who has experience slamming thirty-thousand pounds into a steel deck at 120 knots and full power while trying to catch a two-inch wire with a hook.
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You are?!? Sounds nuts to me! :eek: :rofl:
 
With a high wing in the lead, the trailing low wind stacks down on the high wings left.
With a low wing in the lead, the high wing stacks up on the low wings left.
 
I'm gonna have to agree with Ron's philosophy on this one for sure. Proper and safe formation is a matter of training and briefing BEFORE you get in the airplane. Briefing on the radio is bad technique at best and only dangerously incomplete if your lucky. Things like join up and lost sight procedures need to be done at groundspeed zero to make sure they are clear. You might be able to get away with the " It's simple, fly safe and don't hit anything." approach a few times, but you'll end up in an accident report sooner or later.

As far who can see who goes. That's what lost sight procedures are for. Learn 'em and Brief 'em. Lead better be spending a MAJORITY of his time looking for other aircraft and hazards. That is his JOB! If you can't trust your wingmen and or safety observers enough to spend most of the time looking out front, then you shouldn't be in formation with them, PERIOD!!

Formation is one of those aspects of flying where "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" is especially true.

Bottom line, get some training, plan the flight, brief the flight and fly the plan with the most qualified as lead.
 
It's early after a late night so I could be wrong here... don't engines turn clockwise when viewed from the cockpit? If that is true, the wheelpant should be cocked to the right by the slipstream. ???

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
It's early after a late night so I could be wrong here... don't engines turn clockwise when viewed from the cockpit? If that is true, the wheelpant should be cocked to the right by the slipstream. ???

-Skip
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I don't think its the slipstream that's causing it. I think the wheel was always canted to the left in level flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
And what happens then if lead turns left? Wingman has to go belly-up to lead -- bad ju-ju. Stacking high is dangerous.
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Hey no Kidding. When a person knows so little as to not know how little they know, that's a problem.
 
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