E
Ernesto Castro
Guest
...
Last edited by a moderator:
mandm
Pattern Altitude
Sorry for your experience, for me I had a prebuy that was about $1000, and after owning and flying the airplane I realize that there is only so much that can be checked, and a bunch of other small stuff that gets pricey, so review of logbooks and when key components were last replaced is a good indicator but things do break and wear over time.
I requested some extra items plus an annual and pitot static to be provided prior to closing the deal (which I think makes all the difference as airworthy items are included in the deal), and I would put money in escrow. Some things did come up that caused the bill to jump, and a couple things were just fixed but later failed and I had to replace them. Overall I am satisfied with my experience and learned a lot but I would be a little more thorough knowing what I know now the next time around.
Hope you can get some resolution.
I requested some extra items plus an annual and pitot static to be provided prior to closing the deal (which I think makes all the difference as airworthy items are included in the deal), and I would put money in escrow. Some things did come up that caused the bill to jump, and a couple things were just fixed but later failed and I had to replace them. Overall I am satisfied with my experience and learned a lot but I would be a little more thorough knowing what I know now the next time around.
Hope you can get some resolution.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
so why not ask him to do an annual inspection in the first place? Why was your plan going in to pay for a pre buy that was an annual inspection, and then pay for an annual inspection immediately afterward? If the pre buy was meant to be just as intensive as an annual, why would you plan up front to pay again for the same thing?
Last edited:
Pinecone
En-Route
The annual includes things that are not inspection. Like lubrication of things. Repacking wheel bearings. May require adjustment of things found out of adjustment in the inspection.
As a potential buyer, I would not want to pay for those things until the airplane was mine. And I would not want to GIVE the seller a fresh annual if I did not buy the plane.
But you are all missing the point. Inspection for corrosion IS part of the annual inspection and should have been seen in the first, inspection part. This was posted on another forum, and the corrosion with not subtle or trivial.
As a potential buyer, I would not want to pay for those things until the airplane was mine. And I would not want to GIVE the seller a fresh annual if I did not buy the plane.
But you are all missing the point. Inspection for corrosion IS part of the annual inspection and should have been seen in the first, inspection part. This was posted on another forum, and the corrosion with not subtle or trivial.
That's not correct. There is nothing that prevents starting an annual inspection, stopping, reassembling the aircraft, and flying it provided there' time remaining on the original annual. If no time left, then a SFP is needed. As mentioned above it appears you've agreed to and paid twice for the same inspection unless there were 2 separate inspections done and completed: pre-buy then an annual inspection. Otherwise the narrative doesn't make much sense dollar-wise or the fact there were 2 separate discrepancy lists and negotiations (7k vs 20k).
While those tasks are/can be performed at the same time, they are not part of the annual inspection and each additional task requires its own records entry. A number of shops bill for the annual inspection separately from those tasks as not all owners have them complied with that time.
Last edited:
schmookeeg
En-Route
Apparently I'm charging wayyyyy too little if 2,500 is the prebuy rate on a 201. 
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I do feel for you.
But the problem is the vagueness and misunderstanding many have about what a pre-buy is and what an annual is. If you tell them to do an annual inspection, but to give you the sticker for the logbook rather than the owner of the aircraft, then you have a valid annual if you buy the aircraft. There is no need for two inspections. An annual inspection is an annual inspection. It is not lubrication, or fixing things found during an annual inspection.
There are at least two possibilities here. Either they did a lousy inspection because your criteria wasn't going to require them to sign a logbook entry, or when they started working on the known issues, they stumbled on the other issues. The fact that you use the term inspection for both items, leads me to believe the former was the case. So, IMO you bear some small amount of blame for not giving them a clear requirement that forces them to have skin in the game. That's the problem I have with ANY pre buy inspection. There is no incentive for the inspector to do a good job. There is no legal definition to what you asked, nor is there a commonly accepted metric which the inspector should meet.
But the problem is the vagueness and misunderstanding many have about what a pre-buy is and what an annual is. If you tell them to do an annual inspection, but to give you the sticker for the logbook rather than the owner of the aircraft, then you have a valid annual if you buy the aircraft. There is no need for two inspections. An annual inspection is an annual inspection. It is not lubrication, or fixing things found during an annual inspection.
There are at least two possibilities here. Either they did a lousy inspection because your criteria wasn't going to require them to sign a logbook entry, or when they started working on the known issues, they stumbled on the other issues. The fact that you use the term inspection for both items, leads me to believe the former was the case. So, IMO you bear some small amount of blame for not giving them a clear requirement that forces them to have skin in the game. That's the problem I have with ANY pre buy inspection. There is no incentive for the inspector to do a good job. There is no legal definition to what you asked, nor is there a commonly accepted metric which the inspector should meet.
Sorry your experience has been awful.
What, specifically, did you require be covered by the pre buy “inspection”? Did you specify the task be completed by an A&P/IA and conform to the relevant Mooney, Lycoming, and prop Maintenance Manual inspection requirements for 100-hr and/or Annual inspection?
$2500 for the just the annual inspection isn’t unreasonable for a Mooney.
ETA: if you’re not a member at Mooneyspace, you might consider joining over there for some good advice if you want this fixed.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
Well I mean come on... the guy is paying them to inspect the plane so he can buy it. I'd be ****ed off if they found corrosion in the spar because it wasn't technically a "annual". If that the case then I would not pay for a prebuy from these guys.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree, but the problem is far larger than one mechanic. This is what I would expect from pretty much any mechanic I didn't already have experience with.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
On a slightly different topic. Since there hasn't been a real Mooney in a long time, I'm not sure why anybody would be impressed by a "Mooney Service Center". Seems as if it should have lost all meaning by now, if it ever had any to begin with.
They quoted you $4200 and it cost $5000. Not much of a stretch considering the work. You should have complained at the $4200.
This is not what you stated originally. However, the narrative still doesn’t make sense. The fact you thought the start of an annual inspection made an aircraft unairworthy, follows more you wanted a general check of the aircraft to begin with for anything obvious (1st disc list) and if “good,” to then start the annual and finish it (2nd list). It doesn’t appear to me, based on my experiences, that the same criteria was used for both inspections. Had it been as you 1st stated there would have been only one discrepancy list.
As to the corrosion, it could be simply that as part of the Mooney annual inspection form (2nd list), the shop complied with a bulletin that specifically addressed that area that wasn’t part of your first check “pre-buy” criteria. Nobody likes these results especially with their 1st aircraft. I get that. Regardless, without the shop here to provide their side, we’re still missing half the story. But don’t let it get to you. Pointing fingers doesn’t solve it. Find you a local APIA that will be your mechanic and use him to formulate a route to get your plane fixed and back in the air. Best of luck.
This is why a "pre-buy" means nothing unless it follows a known standard. Everyone has a different opinion of what a prebuy is. No different than what each person thinks is airworthy.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
OK then i'm asking for a pre-purchase airworthiness inspection
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 22,988
- Display Name
Display name:
Bob Noel
thread drift:
Even though I'm not an IA or A&P, I believe I understand you.
Would the following be one solution/approach? Instead of a "pre-buy", pay the IA for an annual inspection itself. Not an "annual" as many of us call it (with all the servicing/work that happens at the same time), but just the full up annual inspection.
Would you expect that if Flight Level Aviation has done an annual inspection then the OP should not have been given an incomplete of squawks initially?
No problem. Now post a reference that defines what a "pre-purchase airworthiness inspection" means to you and we can discuss it. I can think of 4 different references that would fall under that description.
It could be. But it can be whatever buyer, seller, and the mechanic decide it to be except it is written down and agreed to. However, unless you also include the APIA that will be maintaining this aircraft for you there is always the unknown of what he will determine once he sees the aircraft. As mentioned before, airworthy is both objective and subjective to the person making the call. But also keep in mind, these prebuy requirements tend to follow the food chain of aircraft status and condition. There are owners and aircraft out there that need no prebuy at all. Most issues are usually at the lower to mid end where hangar fairies live and owners are not as "engaged" as those at the upper end of the chain. Several PoA'rs are at this upper level.
Perhaps an example: I offer two basic pre-purchase services: one is a TC conformity check, records review, and includes a preflight inspection per the POH/AFM along with a signed record entry. If it isn’t listed in those references I don’t look at it. I use this method on over 50% of my prebuys. The 2nd is a 100hr inspection per Part 43 Appx D and Part 43.15, or a custom version of it, which will also get a detailed signed record entry. The whole point is to write down what is expected by all involved so there are no questions or surprises. This is how things are done at the turbine/business class/jet/rotorcraft side in most cases. In addition, I always include a small note in the written pre-buy reference on how any discrepancies will be documented and handled prior to beginning the prebuy.
Yes.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
Well I tell you what it should include and that is spotting corrosion on a spar
schmookeeg
En-Route
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm thinking just asking for a "pre-buy" is pretty useless.
I wouldn't make that assumption. That corrosion didn't get there overnight so it likely got missed at several inspections prior to the one that caught it. Unfortunately you got stuck owning the aircraft at the time of discovery.
Sluggo63
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2013
- Messages
- 1,897
- Display Name
Display name:
Sluggo63
When I did my pre-buy on my Seneca, I used the Savvy pre-buy service. Since I was going to be a new owner, I wanted some back up to validate what was found during the pre-buy.
Savvy has a pretty good article on pre-buys versus annuals and why the two are and should be different.
https://resources.savvyaviation.com...cles_eaa/EAA_2014-11_prebuy-dos-and-donts.pdf
The pre-buy shop that Savvy picked out used the Savvy specific checklists and I was generally happy with the service. That didn't mean that my first annual was spotless. There was still stuff I had to fix or repair. Some stuff I knew about because it was found on the annual, and some others that weren't.
Savvy has a pretty good article on pre-buys versus annuals and why the two are and should be different.
https://resources.savvyaviation.com...cles_eaa/EAA_2014-11_prebuy-dos-and-donts.pdf
The pre-buy shop that Savvy picked out used the Savvy specific checklists and I was generally happy with the service. That didn't mean that my first annual was spotless. There was still stuff I had to fix or repair. Some stuff I knew about because it was found on the annual, and some others that weren't.
Ha. So should the pre-buy also look for corrosion on a Mooney internal tube frame per bulletin 208? It can be just as big corrosion issue for some Mooneys. Or how about if you have a Piper, should your prebuy include pulling the fuel tanks per SB1006 to make sure the spar isn't corroded behind them? As you can see its not as simple as you imply. Good luck with your next prebuy and hope you learned something from this.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would think someone offering a pre-buy should be familiar with the airframe he is inspecting, know the trouble areas, and price accordingly.
wheaties
Pre-takeoff checklist
It's posts like these where I count myself lucky. Hope you are finally enjoying your bird.
And if luck holds, you went to a real mechanic that put the tail on facing the right way. I can't believe how many Mooney I've seen with it on backwards.
And if luck holds, you went to a real mechanic that put the tail on facing the right way. I can't believe how many Mooney I've seen with it on backwards.
It is.
Unfortunately, on this end of the pre-buy spectrum all is driven by the buyer. Outside of Saavy and a few other providers most mx shops don’t advertise prebuys for puddle jumpers like you see on the commercia/business side. So instead you see the common PoA prebuy story where the buyer flips a coin and gets a prebuy done with minimal due diligence. Its also the reason I always preach to pick your mechanic first before buying an aircraft. They are the one you want in your corner and not Bubba from BFE. Same story, different day.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Some folks have a good experience with Savvy prebuy, but I was less than thrilled with Savvy's prebuy assistance. The person they assigned to me was not knowledgeable about Musketeers and I had to do my own research on what special trouble areas should be checked. He didn't stay on top of the shop and I was frequently pinging him. He went on vacation to Osh for a week without advising me, so he was unexpectedly silent for about ten days leaving me to wonder WTH was going on. I really don't think I got my money's worth. (Yes, I told Savvy about my experience.)
The shop Savvy recommended did not exactly do a great job with the prebuy / annual, either. When the prebuy was completed and the seller had resolved some issues (great guy; the key to a good purchase experience is finding a good, helpful, honest seller), I had the shop continue into an annual. All this took nearly two months.
When they notified me the plane was ready, I booked a hotel and my wife and I made the drive to pick up the plane. During my preflight, I discovered that (1) the fuel guages were stuck on full, (2) the electric trim didn't work, and (3) the pitot heat didn't work. How do you miss this stuff?!
Grumble.....
Drove back home and waited another month for them to fix those issues, to the tune of another $2k or so.
A lot of the difficulty, IMHO, stems from buying a plane a long distance away since you can't drop in regularly (and unexpectedly) to see what's going on. Now that I have the plane here, I've been able to work with two good AME/IAs and a good avionics shop that let me "help" with work and don't mind me looking over their shoulders and asking questions. This keeps work moving at a reasonable pace, and I'm much happier seeing how the work is being done and being a party to decisions about maintenance.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
Ha. So should the pre-buy also look for corrosion on a Mooney internal tube frame per bulletin 208? It can be just as big corrosion issue for some Mooneys. Or how about if you have a Piper, should your prebuy include pulling the fuel tanks per SB1006 to make sure the spar isn't corroded behind them? As you can see its not as simple as you imply. Good luck with your next prebuy and hope you learned something from this.
Yes, if I was going to purchase a plane I would like to know if the plane I am buying can be flown.
And that’s the point I trying to make. Its up to the buyer to dictate what they want looked at for their prebuy. What happened to the OP happens on a regular basis—even with top-notch shops. The main reason is some buyers, and especially 1st time buyers, believe a prebuy is equal to an annual inspection. Its not by a long shot on many different levels.
So if you don’t want to follow the same path as many buyers have with their prebuy expectations and results, learn from this example and the other examples on PoA and be a diligent buyer who fully understands what the purpose of a prebuy really is.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds like another case of caveat emptor. The buyer here was being careful, checking out the aircraft he was buying before paying. I guess caveat emptor needs to be carried out further, first by making sure your mechanic is up to the task, as this shop obviously wasn't, and secondly by applying self help and learning everything you can about the airframe you are going to buy, plus sitting the mechanic or shop you are using down and making sure they are going to check what needs to be checked.
Tough task.
I still think Ernesto is justified in being angry here, if a shop offers a pre-buy, they should know what they are doing, or figure it out themselves before they tell someone an airframe is good. This attitude that "it's only a pre-buy, not our fault" is crap.
Tough task.
I still think Ernesto is justified in being angry here, if a shop offers a pre-buy, they should know what they are doing, or figure it out themselves before they tell someone an airframe is good. This attitude that "it's only a pre-buy, not our fault" is crap.
Who’s ultimate authority on airworthiness?
The problem with a pre-buy is usually expectation management.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nope, the mechanic is offering expertise here for sale. If the buyer has the level of expertise to know what to look for, what does he need the mechanic for? Mechanics need to be honest.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
I will say that I have learned a lot with this thread. Thanks for all the replys and it really has been a good discussion on what a pre-buy really entails.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Sorry, but a prepurchase inspection isn't going to pick up wing spar corrosion in a Mooney. At best they're going to open up one or two of the wing inspection panels and see how things look. To get at the wing spars you have to pull the whole interior, and I've not seen that done in a prepurchase inspection. To be honest, I'm having a hard time seeing what the shop did wrong. The OP asked for a prepurchase inspection to be followed by an annual inspection. If he was charged the same for both either they charged too much for the first and too little for the second or reamed on one. Still, this should have been worked out beforehand.
Sorry to @francisco collazos that you hit the wing spar corrosion, it can be a Mooney killer and the repair bill for that sounds low to me. The bandits here are the folks who did the previous annuals, this should have been picked up before it became an issue. If it makes any difference, you aren't the first to hit this issue and sadly, won't be the last. All the steel that makes a Mooney hella stout can also be its achilles heel. But I myself hold the shop blameless for this, an annual inspection is a different beast from a prepurchase inspection. When I bought my Mooney I asked careful questions about how it had been cared for prior to my ownership. Still, I advise anyone buying an airplane that they might have to write big checks at any time.
Sorry you got bit, it does suck.
Sorry to @francisco collazos that you hit the wing spar corrosion, it can be a Mooney killer and the repair bill for that sounds low to me. The bandits here are the folks who did the previous annuals, this should have been picked up before it became an issue. If it makes any difference, you aren't the first to hit this issue and sadly, won't be the last. All the steel that makes a Mooney hella stout can also be its achilles heel. But I myself hold the shop blameless for this, an annual inspection is a different beast from a prepurchase inspection. When I bought my Mooney I asked careful questions about how it had been cared for prior to my ownership. Still, I advise anyone buying an airplane that they might have to write big checks at any time.
Sorry you got bit, it does suck.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
So a pre-buy is useless, why get one? Sounds like they just review what you can see on your own, kind of like a home inspection. If this is true, I wouldn't bother, I would save the money on the pre-buy and put it toward the plane. This is good to know.
francisco collazos
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2021
- Messages
- 354
- Display Name
Display name:
ciscovet
I think I would split an annual with the owner.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, yes and no. All planes have certain items that can be expensive problems. I think it's incumbent on the buyer to become aware of these things while he's shopping, and then make sure the pre-buy includes it, even if it costs a bit more. If that means pulling the interior, so be it. I don't know Mooneys; on some planes removing the interior is a big deal, on some it's a 30 minute job.
For my Beech, I obtained a known issues checklist from the type club and had Savvy provide it to the shop. While the shop checked those items, somehow they managed to miss things that were obvious, like stuck fuel guages and a non-working electrical trim. <sigh> It's like the three laws of thermodynamics: you can't win, you can't break even, you can't quit the game.
Exactly. Except they only review what the buyer wants or what the seller will allow. Maybe the seller wouldn't allow disassembly to see the spars? Regardless, a prebuy is only as good as what the buyer and seller agree to with the mechanic in the middle. Or you simply buy at a level where a prebuy is not required.
And so do owners. The fact the OP agreed to a prebuy based on a "crappy" checklist (his words) then requested an annual based on the Mooney 100hr/annual checklist where the corrosion was found, speaks more to what actually went on than what is being portrayed. Especially since the shop is not here to give their side of the discussion. The only difference in the OPs case is he didn't fly the aircraft back to his APIA who would have been the one to give him the $20k estimate. Then who is at fault?
Thats one option that is done. But even then I think it is important that your APIA is the one performing that annual or is at least involved in the process.