PA-28-181 Required Equipment?

[techflight]

I am trying to determine if an ammeter (on the Archer, technically a load meter) is required equipment on my Piper Archer II. I get different responses on this from different shops and mechanics, and after doing some reading it seems as though the PA-28-181 does not have a Minimum Equipment List. Therefore, the minimum equipment required is simply what's listed in CFR 91.205 (and an ammeter is not listed in the regulations).

Am I interpreting this correctly or is there something that I am missing?

 

[RyanB]

The Archer doesn’t have an MEL and yes, an ammeter is required.

 

[techflight]

Thank you Ryan!

 

[Bell206]

Am I interpreting this correctly or is there something that I am missing?

I think you are looking at this from the wrong side. 91.205, MELs, KOLs, etc. detail operational and regulatory equipment requirements. They don't necessarily list aircraft certification requirements which the ammeter would be more likely to be listed under. If you dig into the CAR/FAR your aircraft was built and certified under you'll probably find that ammeter is used to meet one or more certification requirements which part of the aircraft type design. A good poor-mans listing of the aircraft type design equipment is the OEM aircraft parts manual. Its not 100% foolproof but you have a good chance that if a piece of equipment is listed in the parts books, that item is part of the type design which means its required to be installed on the aircraft. And based on my experience, the ammeter is required to indicate to you as pilot if your battery is taking a charge or discharging which is a certification requirement on aircraft with electrical systems.

 

[dmspilot]

I am trying to determine if an ammeter (on the Archer, technically a load meter) is required equipment on my Piper Archer II. I get different responses on this from different shops and mechanics, and after doing some reading it seems as though the PA-28-181 does not have a Minimum Equipment List. Therefore, the minimum equipment required is simply what's listed in CFR 91.205 (and an ammeter is not listed in the regulations).

Am I interpreting this correctly or is there something that I am missing?

No you are not interpreting it correctly. In the absence of an MEL, equipment is required if is required by 91.205 or by the aircraft's equipment list or by the aircraft certification requirements or by an airworthiness directive. Please see 91.213(d).

The Archer doesn’t have an MEL and yes, an ammeter is required.

Bad answer with no justification.

 

[techflight]

I appreciate the nuanced answers. This seems like a strangely complicated question to answer. What is the easiest and most practical method to actually determine if the Archer II needs a load meter, i.e. how do I gain access to and search within the necessary documents to find this information?

 

[Joe_B1]

My archer does not have one. Well, I should say that I added one but, it did not come with one.

 

[mondtster]

I appreciate the nuanced answers. This seems like a strangely complicated question to answer. What is the easiest and most practical method to actually determine if the Archer II needs a load meter, i.e. how do I gain access to and search within the necessary documents to find this information?

Bell206 answered your question on how to determine if it is required (it is).

 

[techflight]

Bell206 answered your question on how to determine if it is required (it is).

While I appreciate the info he provided in his answer, the problem is I’m an idiot and I still don’t know how to get access to the documents he referenced.

“If you dig into the CAR/FAR your aircraft was built and certified under you'll probably find that ammeter is used to meet one or more certification requirements which part of the aircraft type design.”

The problem is, I’m an idiot and I don’t know how to “dig into the CAR/FAR” my Archer was built and certified under to find this information.

“A good poor-mans listing of the aircraft type design equipment is the OEM aircraft parts manual. Its not 100% foolproof…”

This also doesn’t seem straightforward to search for online and even if I found a version I’m confident in, it sounds like it’s still not 100% foolproof, so how do I go about actually getting a definitive answer on this? It sounds like you’re confident in your answer of it being required, how did you come to that definitive determination or is it just intuition?

 

[dmspilot]

so how do I go about actually getting a definitive answer on this? It sounds like you’re confident in your answer of it being required, how did you come to that definitive determination or is it just intuition?

There is no definitive document, only knowledge or aircraft type design, certification requirements, and the certification process. Cessna started publishing an equipment list in 1976 with a key to denote required items:




Unfortunately Piper did not do the same thing. The closest they came was describing some equipment as "optional" in the POH. Intuition can also be used. Along with the fact that it's designed into the electrical system, it's hard to imagine that the FAA would certify an aircraft as airworthy for Day and Night VFR and IFR without a way for the pilot to know whether the alternator is operative.

 

[mondtster]

While I appreciate the info he provided in his answer, the problem is I’m an idiot and I still don’t know how to get access to the documents he referenced.

“If you dig into the CAR/FAR your aircraft was built and certified under you'll probably find that ammeter is used to meet one or more certification requirements which part of the aircraft type design.”

The problem is, I’m an idiot and I don’t know how to “dig into the CAR/FAR” my Archer was built and certified under to find this information.

“A good poor-mans listing of the aircraft type design equipment is the OEM aircraft parts manual. Its not 100% foolproof…”

This also doesn’t seem straightforward to search for online and even if I found a version I’m confident in, it sounds like it’s still not 100% foolproof, so how do I go about actually getting a definitive answer on this? It sounds like you’re confident in your answer of it being required, how did you come to that definitive determination or is it just intuition?

First, you're far from the only person that has had this type of question so I would not classify yourself as an idiot. As this thread has shown, there is a lot of confusion about what equipment is required to be present and functional in an aircraft.

The simple answer is that as far as I know, all the Cherokees and Cherokee based aircraft were certified with an electrical system, thus requiring the system and its components to be functional. A quick search of the illustrated parts catalog will likely show the electrical system components that were used for your aircraft, and that will include a load meter. That listing shows what equipment was used to meet the type design, and their presence and functionality is required. If the original equipment is no longer installed a suitable replacement may satisfy the requirements instead. I don't know exactly what Bell had in mind when he wrote that using the IPC wasn't 100% foolproof but one area where it can get a bit gray is with aircraft that were certified with no electrical system but had a factory option for an electrical system and the components of the system may be listed in the IPC.

When in doubt, inquire with the IA that will be annualing your aircraft. They will have an opinion on this.

 

[Motor6]

The load meter in my Cherokee Six was not working when I purchased the aircraft. The IA who did my pre buy inspection said it was required. For less than the price of having the old meter repaired I added one of these.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ei-digitalgraphic4.php

Mine had an external shunt so I bought the version with an external shunt (100amp) and wired it just like the old one. It was an easy install and works great. The IA signed off on the install. I pulled the clear cover over the existing load meter cluster, masked off the rest of it, and painted the inside of it black, covering the old load meter.

 

[techflight]

It was an easy install and works great.

View attachment 111556

Out of curiosity, do you recall how many labor hours this required to install?

 

[techflight]

If the original equipment is no longer installed a suitable replacement may satisfy the requirements instead.

Assuming the load meter exists to determine if the alternator is operational, since my EDM can do the same via detecting a drop in voltage that would be indicative of an alternator failure would that constitute a "suitable replacement"?

 

[mondtster]

Assuming the load meter exists to determine if the alternator is operational, since my EDM can do the same via detecting a drop in voltage that would be indicative of an alternator failure would that constitute a "suitable replacement"?

Maybe, or maybe not. It depends on what it was approved to do, and if it is approved as a replacement for the original load meter. Not all JPIs are approved as primary instruments.

 

[Bell206]

I am trying to determine if an ammeter (on the Archer, technically a load meter) is required equipment on my Piper Archer II.

What specific issue with your aircraft drove you to question this? Since you seem to lack a basic understanding of how the system works perhaps we can start with the original problem and work you through the steps so that it may make more sense to you plus show you where the specific references/documents are to support those steps. Dealing in generalities on this topic can fill volumes.

I don't know exactly what Bell had in mind when he wrote that using the IPC wasn't 100% foolproof

OEMs regularly update IPCs with upgraded part numbers, configurations, etc which can lead to confusion with older aircraft models or S/Ns. So unless you have an IPC copy published the same year as the aircraft was produced there are times when a newer IPC edition is not 100% accurate on an older aircraft. For example, hardware part numbers. As they stop producing AN spec hardware years ago some newer edition IPCs now only show NAS or MS spec hardware where the older IPC showed only AN. To the layman this can cause some excitement.

 

[Pinecone]

Exactly. It may not be approved as a primary instrument.

Like the JPI engine monitors. A 7xx or 8xx cannot be primary, so you have to keep all the installed engine gauged in place and operational. The 9xx series are approved as primary, so you can remove all the original engine gauges.

 

[mondtster]

OEMs regularly update IPCs with upgraded part numbers, configurations, etc which can lead to confusion with older aircraft models or S/Ns. So unless you have an IPC copy published the same year as the aircraft was produced there are times when a newer IPC edition is not 100% accurate on an older aircraft. For example, hardware part numbers. As they stop producing AN spec hardware years ago some newer edition IPCs now only show NAS or MS spec hardware where the older IPC showed only AN. To the layman this can cause some excitement.

That’s what I assumed you were getting at and even for experienced mechanics it can sometimes be difficult to determine what the correct part is for a given serial number, depending on the circumstances.

 

[Motor6]

Out of curiosity, do you recall how many labor hours this required to install?

I think it took me less than 2 hours. Taking my time to cut the hole in the panel. I think I paid my IA an hour to assist and complete the logbook entry.

 

[techflight]

What specific issue with your aircraft drove you to question this? Since you seem to lack a basic understanding of how the system works perhaps we can start with the original problem and work you through the steps so that it may make more sense to you plus show you where the specific references/documents are to support those steps. Dealing in generalities on this topic can fill volumes.


OEMs regularly update IPCs with upgraded part numbers, configurations, etc which can lead to confusion with older aircraft models or S/Ns. So unless you have an IPC copy published the same year as the aircraft was produced there are times when a newer IPC edition is not 100% accurate on an older aircraft. For example, hardware part numbers. As they stop producing AN spec hardware years ago some newer edition IPCs now only show NAS or MS spec hardware where the older IPC showed only AN. To the layman this can cause some excitement.

My ammeter is inoperative; therefore, it should be removed or repaired. However, I’ve received ridiculous quotes to get it repaired, and quite frankly don’t care about getting it repaired because I can determine if the alternator is working without it in three different ways:
(1) EDM 700 has built-in voltmeter (and will warn when voltage issue is detected).
(2) Voltage readout via adapter plugged into cigarette lighter socket - can easily and quickly see if it’s at ~14.4 volts or suddenly drops down closer to ~12 volts.
(3) Alternator failure warning light.

Therefore, I am trying to determine if I can legally remove the ammeter or if I need to get it repaired.

 

[Bell206]

My ammeter is inoperative; therefore, it should be removed or repaired.

First, I would have someone troubleshoot the issue before pursuing the removal or repair. Could be something simple. If it turns out to be just the ammeter or shunt, you could possibly defer it per 91.213(d) and keep flying for now at least until your next annual. As to removing the ammeter it would take a major alteration and the associated approved data. The 3 alternative monitoring methods you mentioned above won't provide that data. So its doubtful you won't be able to remove it without some type of approved substitute indicator. In all likelihood a repair is the most cost effective route. Out of curiosity, what "ridiculous quotes" are you getting for a repair? Does your aircraft ammeter have the external shunt or is it the old style indicator with an internal shunt?

 

[techflight]

First, I would have someone troubleshoot the issue before pursuing the removal or repair. Could be something simple. If it turns out to be just the ammeter or shunt, you could possibly defer it per 91.213(d) and keep flying for now at least until your next annual. As to removing the ammeter it would take a major alteration and the associated approved data. The 3 alternative monitoring methods you mentioned above won't provide that data. So its doubtful you won't be able to remove it without some type of approved substitute indicator. In all likelihood a repair is the most cost effective route. Out of curiosity, what "ridiculous quotes" are you getting for a repair? Does your aircraft ammeter have the external shunt or is it the old style indicator with an internal shunt?

Thanks for the info. I am aware I can keep flying the airplane, but want to settle on a long-term solution here. It was diagnosed by two different shops as a problem with the actual gauge itself. I was quoted $4.5K to replace the gauge (2.5 days of labor), and when I asked about the electronic gauge from Electronics International the quote was brought down to $3.5K (2 days of labor) which still seems ridiculous. Currently waiting on a quote from a couple other shops.

Ammeter has an external shunt.

 

[Bell206]

which still seems ridiculous.

Well without knowing their shop rate, at $100/hr that cost is over half labor which could be market in your area. Any reason you dont look for an independent A&P to address this?

 

[Motor6]

The EI unit has six wires to connect. You definitely need to find a new shop if they are quoting two days labor. That is ridiculous.

 

[Bell206]

The EI unit has six wires to connect.

Curious. How long would it take you to connect those 6 wires?

 

[Motor6]

Curious. How long would it take you to connect those 6 wires?

Roughly 2 hours for the install in my PA32. I liked your idea of him looking for an independent A&P.

 

[techflight]

Well without knowing their shop rate, at $100/hr that cost is over half labor which could be market in your area. Any reason you dont look for an independent A&P to address this?

What’s the best way to find an independent A&P? My A&P wants me to go to an avionics shop..

 

[Ed Haywood]

Here is a TSO and STC ammeter + voltmeter for $400. PA28 is on the AML. Installation instructions are available for download.


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/in/ammeters_0browse/ei-digitalgraphic4.php

This thread just highlights what a racket certified aircraft parts and service have become. I can get a PMA ammeter for my 8KCAB for $100 and install it in less than an hour. Whoever quoted $4K should be ashamed of themself.

 

[Motor6]

What’s the best way to find an independent A&P? My A&P wants me to go to an avionics shop..

This is a pretty good place to ask if you are willing to let people know where you are. Otherwise talk to other pilots at your airport. I found the guy I use by asking around. I also found a great CFI/CFII that had time in PA-32’s to get me the necessary time for my insurance check out the same way.

I realize it may be a little tighter behind the panel on your PA-28, but if you can get under the panel and see the back side of that load meter it should be a pretty easy install of that EI unit.

 

[bflynn]

The simple answer is that as far as I know, all the Cherokees and Cherokee based aircraft were certified with an electrical system, thus requiring the system and its components to be functional.

or placarded inoperative IAW 91.213 and not required by the operations in 91.205 (referenced in 91.213). An electrical system is not required for day VFR flight, so an ammeter is not required.

But overall - you should get it fixed. You have time to consider who/where and you’re not grounded.

 

[Bell206]

Roughly 2 hours for the install in my PA32.

Interesting. So you didnt have to punch a separate hole in the panel and run new wires? The PA28s I remember had cluster instruments where an EI indicator wouldnt fit. Does EI make a replacement for those type indicators now?

My A&P wants me to go to an avionics shop..

Before you look for a second A&P I'd ask your AP why he doesnt want to do your aircraft. Without knowing the exact configuration of your panel, he and the shop may know something we dont. While 2 days does seem like more time than needed, you'll find shop rates/times will be higher especially those that are repair stations. Perhaps ask the shops for an itemized quote and we can look at that for a better comparison?

 

[mondtster]

or placarded inoperative IAW 91.213 and not required by the operations in 91.205 (referenced in 91.213). An electrical system is not required for day VFR flight, so an ammeter is not required.

But overall - you should get it fixed. You have time to consider who/where and you’re not grounded.

FWIW, 91.205 is not the absolute list that many believe it is and teach. Piper isn’t as articulate on what equipment is required to be installed and functional but a perusal of the “R” items in a newer Cessna equipment list may provide some eye opening discoveries.

I stand by what I wrote. A functional electrical system is required in a PA28, even for day VFR operations.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Who the hell would own an Archer and decide to equip it for day VFR only? And what would the placarding requirements be, given that it was originally approved for night VFR? Label all electrical switches and gauges as inop? Are fuel gauges electric?

 

[Motor6]

Interesting. So you didnt have to punch a separate hole in the panel and run new wires? The PA28s I remember had cluster instruments where an EI indicator wouldnt fit. Does EI make a replacement for those type indicators now?

There is an after picture in my post above. I did cut a new hole and masked the inside of the clear plastic covering the existing load meter so it is no longer visible. Most of the wires are already there. It was over a year ago, but I think I ran a new ground and a wire for the backlight.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Before you look for a second A&P I'd ask your AP why he doesnt want to do your aircraft.

A lot of mechanics are weak on electrical stuff. Can hardly read a wiring diagram. They'd rather refer it to someone else.

 

[Bell206]

A lot of mechanics are weak on electrical stuff. Can hardly read a wiring diagram. They'd rather refer it to someone else.

True. But maybe he just doesn't like working on PA28 panels. I know I didn't and stayed away every chance I could.

 

[bflynn]

FWIW, 91.205 is not the absolute list that many believe it is and teach. Piper isn’t as articulate on what equipment is required to be installed and functional but a perusal of the “R” items in a newer Cessna equipment list may provide some eye opening discoveries.

I stand by what I wrote. A functional electrical system is required in a PA28, even for day VFR operations.

This Piper does not have a Types and Kinds of equipment list. Absent that list, everything else you said is an opinion. It doesn’t matter what list a Cessna has, that list is not legally binding to a Piper, nor does it even suggest what ought to be repaired on a Cessna.

91.213 -> 91.205 IS the legal resolution of whether or not the OP can fly his airplane and for what kind of operations.

 

[mondtster]

This Piper does not have a Types and Kinds of equipment list. Absent that list, everything else you said is an opinion. It doesn’t matter what list a Cessna has, that list is not legally binding to a Piper, nor does it even suggest what ought to be repaired on a Cessna.

91.213 -> 91.205 IS the legal resolution of whether or not the OP can fly his airplane and for what kind of operations.

The part you’re missing (and the whole point of this thread) is that there is a step in between using a KOEL and going straight to 91.205 and 213 to fly with inoperative equipment. In this case, the OP was directed to look in the IPC to help glean whether the ammeter was needed. The same thing would be applicable to all or part of the electrical system.

91.205 does not list everything that must be installed and functional in an aircraft to make it safe or legal for flight. Think about all the equipment absent from that short list that are still required for that aircraft to safely and legally fly.

 

[rotormatic1]

This is the part of 91.213 that needs to be addressed:

(2) The inoperative instruments and equipment are not -

(i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraftwas type certificated;

 

[Jereme Carne]

Have you looked up the TCDS yet? I doubt there is an MEL for that aircraft so a TCDS needs to be checked on the FAA website before heading to 91.205. I would help a brother out but their website appears down right now.