Can I please have some advice on an Underage DUI

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John Bonee

Filing Flight Plan
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Introduction
Hi everybody, I am looking to gather some advice on how I should proceed or if I should not proceed at all. I have looked through various threads but could not find any situation that was similar to mine. I plan to give as much information as I can so in order to get the most accurate advice plausible.

Description of Events:
On November 14th, 2020, I got arrested for a DUI at the age of 20. I did not refuse anything and gave consent to a blood draw. The results came back as a .21%. (I know that I will receive hateful responses over my stupidity and ignorance, in which I accept due to my actions.) I did not not turn 21 until May of 2021, 6 months from the time of the event. Furthermore, my court date was pushed off until August 16th, 2021, in which I entered into a Pre-Trial Diversion and the charge dropped to an Underage DUI. The result of the diversion is that I lost my drivers license for one year and nothing further would happen unless I did something to breach contract. This coming August 16th, 2022, I will get my license back and the process of expungement will begin. I will be graduating college in June of 2022.

Additional notes:
At the time of the incident I was a junior in college and had been working at the Sheriff's Office in my county as a jailer. This is most likely the reason that I was able to enter into the pre-trial diversion. I have not touched a drop of alcohol since the night of the DUI. I have not wanted to touch any as the smell disgusts me and makes me sick to my stomach. I have not completed any AA or rehab program for two reasons, I did not feel that I needed it and I was never told that it would be beneficial to me. I have zero flight hours, ground school hours, and zero experience in the aviation field other than Aerospace being my minor in college. ---

Question:
What will I have to do in order to pass the medical? I have heard of HIMS and that it is extremely expensive, will I have to do that? If yes, is it possible to complete this outside of the FAA and a less expensive cost? What are some options that I can look into? Where should I start? Should I drop my dreams of piloting a helicopter and move on? My main question to you all is, will I still be eligible to become a pilot and how long of a period must I wait?
 
I'm not an expert, I have no personal experience with your situation. That said, your situation isn't that unique and there are a lot of threads on here dealing with DUI. The thing you need to understand is that as far as the FAA is concerned there is no "expungement", all they care about is that you were arrested for DUI. Since your BAC was greater than 0.15% you will be considered as having tolerance. In other words, I believe in the eyes of the FAA you're an alcoholic and therefor you will have to go through the HIMS process. You're young and if you really want it you can most likely get through the process and obtain a medical certificate. It is going to be tedious, time consuming and expensive, but it is possible. My advice would be to contact a HIMS AME to ask questions and obtain advice from an expert as to what to expect.

Good Luck!

P.S. This person just successfully received a third class going through the HIMS process in about a year and < $10K. They also appear open to answering questions, so why not ask them directly?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/third-class-si-saga.137523/#post-3239204
 
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AA or similar program will be mandatory and you need to accept that you need it. Being able to still function at .21 IS a sign of dependence, you should have been reaching the point you could barely walk and close to blackout. Being able to find your car and coming close to being able to drive only comes through experience at hard drinking.

There is no “HIMS outside the FAA”, it is a FAA program.

advice - start AA now, start to build your personal references and save money. In the grand scheme of flight training, 10k is significant, but not enormous. Just getting to Private Pilot will probably cost that much or more depending on where you’re training.
 
As others have said, you can probably get a special issuance medical, but it will be a long, expensive, and time consuming process. Even after the special issuance, you will probably be subject to continued monitoring and random blood tests.

If you're not planning to make flying a career, a Sport Pilot certificate is an option... it requires no medical. It's limited to 2 seat aircraft and helicopters aren't included, but it's flying. The "gotcha" is that once you apply for a medical, Sport Pilot is off the table unless you pass the medical.

Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't seem to understand that kids make mistakes... though as @bflynn pointed out driving at .21 is a pretty big one, and not a one time thing.
 
Unless you want to be a professional pilot I suggest you strongly consider sport pilot.

Under the current regime you will be HIMS your entire career if you go down the road of being a professional pilot.
 
Dana said:
It's limited to 2 seat aircraft and helicopters aren't included, but it's flying
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OTOH, there are light sport gyrocopters that a sport pilot can fly. Not quite a helo, but about 80% of one.



Tarheelpilot said:
Under the current regime you will be HIMS your entire career if you go down the road of being a professional pilot.
Click to expand...

Even if you get the medical, some employers may be reluctant to hire you. You will be explaining why you’re in HIMS all the time.

Sorry, but bad decisions and actions do have consequences. Sometimes they’re life-long.
 
Before you even go down the medical route I would suggest going and taking a few introductory flight lessons to make sure it’s for you. You said that you have zero aviation experience. More than one person has had dreams of flying only to realize they hate it or are scared of it after getting in the cockpit. You don’t need a medical to take a few flight lessons, only to solo. Make sure it’s for you before you start trying to fix your medical issues.
 
FAA will require proven sobriety for the rest of your life if they even consider a medical.

Your best bet is to start that now with weekly, documented AA and your own personal random alcohol screening. Do that for two years to begin to prove your sobriety and get past the initial hurdle, then start the really expensive part of seeing a HIMS AME and the associated lifetime of monitoring.
 
Talk to a lawyer. Two years of sobriety, demonstrated in a way acceptable to the federal air surgeon, makes you eligible for a unrestricted 1/c. 67.107.a.4

Now, figuring out what THAT is requires a lawyer.

If you can demonstrate that successfully, you do not enter HIMS. You don’t do that AND THEN do hims. Not the way it works.

HIMS is easy, rehab, shrink, psych, AA, cog test and pee a lot. It’s just EXPENSIVE. Takes about 9 months and 10-50 grand initial cost. Will have to maintain (think $3k/yr for 7 years, $1-2k/yr for LIFE). Takes a couple years if you’re freebasing heroin... Yep, I know a 121 guy who did that... But it’s guaranteed to work.

The two years thing takes, well, at least two years, mildly expensive (5-10 grand) but no recurring costs. In the long run FAR preferable, but not necessarily guaranteed to work (well it probably is guaranteed but might take an appeal to the NTSB, another couple years and 20 grand). If you haven’t even started flying, it’s worth considering.

If you’re an overextended airline pilot who makes 200 grand and is broke all the time, I recommend your airlines hims program. They’ll be happy to pay for it (or most of it), but they OWN you. If you’re considering this option, they do anyway... or you’ve never been properly advised of your options.
 
Half Fast said:
OTOH, there are light sport gyrocopters that a sport pilot can fly. Not quite a helo, but about 80% of one.





Even if you get the medical, some employers may be reluctant to hire you. You will be explaining why you’re in HIMS all the time.

Sorry, but bad decisions and actions do have consequences. Sometimes they’re life-long.
Click to expand...
I won’t say it isn’t a challenge but I will say it’s not a shut door. I have two good friends that have been hired at legacy airlines with HIMS oversight.
 
Crazy thought/question… do military pilots get Medical’s the same way- through FAA med division?? Or do they have their own system?
 
Absolutely nothing. But to get civilian equivalent, if desired, anytime in the future, this will rear it’s ugly head.

you can’t unring the bell, but you can deal with it.

a military physical is nothing like a FAA physical. There’s a valid attempt in the military to see if you’re physically qualified. They draw blood and everything. They apply consistent medical standards throughout.
 
Just a note on the Sport Pilot Certificate. No medical is required as long as you have never had a medical denied, hold a valid driver's license, and abide by any restrictions attached to that license (for example corrective lenses). If your license is suspended or revoked as a Sport Pilot then you cannot fly unless you then obtain at least a third class medical.
 
benyflyguy said:
So what stops someone like OP going that route, I imagine their system loosely mirrors ours right??
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Getting a slot at OCS with a DUI is problematic, let alone a flight school slot. One has to be eligible for a secret clearance and while I’m sure there are people who are keeping their secret clearance with a DWI, I doubt there are new applicants that get in with one.
My daughter is currently applying for a Navy scholarship. They put her through the wringer. She didn’t have any DUI but my guess is that it would be a no-go. As @Half Fast says actions have consequences, sometimes lifelong. Ain't like the old days.
 
benyflyguy said:
So what stops someone like OP going that route, I imagine their system loosely mirrors ours right??
Click to expand...

The only .mil medical the FAA recognizes is a DoD flying class I. I can only speak for my experience with a career full of USAF flight physicals, but the FAA’s aerospace medical system exists to justify a bureaucracy and has zero to do with actual aerospace medicine.
 
TCABM said:
The only .mil medical the FAA recognizes is a DoD flying class I. I can only speak for my experience with a career full of USAF flight physicals, but the FAA’s aerospace medical system exists to justify a bureaucracy and has zero to do with actual aerospace medicine.
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It’s a shame being so close in goal one can’t learn from the other.
 
benyflyguy said:
It’s a shame being so close in goal one can’t learn from the other.
Click to expand...


One’s goal is to win wars. The other’s goal is to make aviation as safe as possible. In some instances those are incompatible.

Remember, the FAA could best serve its purpose by keeping all of us who fly for recreation grounded.
 
benyflyguy said:
It’s a shame being so close in goal one can’t learn from the other.
Click to expand...

They aren’t anywhere close in goal. In fact, I don’t really know what grounds the FAA defends it’s aeromedical record on. NTSB tox reports and thriving HIMS programs don’t really prove the FAA cares about health first, much less aeromedical physiology.

The DoD has to put flyers in a cockpit which, to a degree, is a conflict of interest. But at least there your PCM is the a flight surgeon who has some sort of formal training in aerospace medicine and aeromedical physiology and forces that flight doc to see you once a year.

The dirty secret in both systems is that if you stay healthy you can self-medicate your way through life. If you get caught on the DoD side, you’re more likely to lose a security clearance that your flight physical.
 
TCABM said:
They aren’t anywhere close in goal. In fact, I don’t really know what grounds the FAA defends it’s aeromedical record on. NTSB tox reports and thriving HIMS programs don’t really prove the FAA cares about health first, much less aeromedical physiology.

The DoD has to put flyers in a cockpit which, to a degree, is a conflict of interest. But at least there your PCM is the a flight surgeon who has some sort of formal training in aerospace medicine and aeromedical physiology and forces that flight doc to see you once a year.

The dirty secret in both systems is that if you stay healthy you can self-medicate your way through life. If you get caught on the DoD side, you’re more likely to lose a security clearance that your flight physical.
Click to expand...
So the DoD aeromedical will make pilots safe to fly? Meaning if a pilot has a problem they actively work to fix their investment right?? They don’t look for a reason to not let someone fly-like the FAA. I’m not trying to be a smart a$$ but truly interested in how the systems work, at least the DoD side. I find the differences interesting.
 
benyflyguy said:
So the DoD aeromedical will make pilots safe to fly? Meaning if a pilot has a problem they actively work to fix their investment right?? They don’t look for a reason to not let someone fly-like the FAA. I’m not trying to be a smart a$$ but truly interested in how the systems work, at least the DoD side. I find the differences interesting.
Click to expand...

All things being equal, DoD wants to keep their investment flying, yes.
 
I come from a military family - You can get in with a DUI but when it comes to piloting in the military it will be extremely hard to become a first pilot. My cousin got a DUI before he entered, was accepted to flight school, but is only able to be a navigator. I
 
Just FYI, The FAA defines anything over 0.20 is defined as untreted dependency. And the assertion of sobriety is JUST THAT. You need to start an FAA spec negative Urine random program, so that you can substantiate your sobriety. The minimum to certify without rehab is two years of proven sobriety, in a FAA spec program, continuous peer support activity, logged, and then the HIMS Evaluations. That is for a third class only. In subsequent years you can apply for a 1st class upgrade.

You can do the same thing (WITH formal rehab) in 9 months, 1st class, if all is well. An no attorney can help you with that.
 
bbchien said:
Just FYI, The FAA defines anything over 0.20 is defined as untreted dependency. And the assertion of sobriety is JUST THAT. You need to start an FAA spec negative Urine random program, so that you can substantiate your sobriety. The minimum to certify without rehab is two years of proven sobriety, in a FAA spec program, continuous peer support activity, logged, and then the HIMS Evaluations. That is for a third class only. In subsequent years you can apply for a 1st class upgrade.

You can do the same thing (WITH formal rehab) in 9 months, 1st class, if all is well. An no attorney can help you with that.
Click to expand...


As of right now I still do not have my license. So either I can go to rehab now to prove sobriety or go to AA for months on end to prove? I want to get a commercial which means I only have to obtain a second class medical, correct? There are only a few people in my life that honestly know and can attest to me not touching a drop since that night. (The smell makes me sick to my stomach and I don't even like seeing a can, bottle, etc.) Can those people have written testimonies to help or does it have to be from AA group members?
 
Those people close to you do matter. However, you want guidance as to an “acceptable to the fed air surgeon” program from either an attorney or hims AME.

It’s simply a well established fact that some hims AMEs will give ya bad advice. They don’t know what they don’t know...

Same to be said for aviation attorneys, however, it’s less likely. Attorneys as a species are very remiss to venture into an arena with which they are not comfortable or absolutely sure about.

so statements from either, or both, can and do matter. How they are sold to the FAS matters.
 
John Bonee said:
As of right now I still do not have my license. So either I can go to rehab now to prove sobriety or go to AA for months on end to prove?
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to prove that you’re serious, which you don’t sound like right now.

The program isn’t going to change for you. The sooner you recognize that and make an honest and sincere engagement with it, the sooner you can start toward the path of flying. No excuses, you do it their way or you don’t fly. That’s your choice.

I’m out.
 
"I have not completed any AA or rehab program for two reasons, I did not feel that I needed it "

Dude, you blew a .21, more than 2.5 times the legal limit. The burden is on you to go above and beyond. Simply stating the thought of alcohol makes you sick means nothing to the FAA. They don't care.
 
You can go the AA way and also get involved with aviation: Take a discovery flight, join a search and rescue crew as a spotter, volunteer to local airshows, apply for an administrative job on a flight school, etc. That can help in the future with FAA. But forget about FAA/HIMS for a second, and focus on yourself. Your love for aviation will take you away from alcohol and drugs.
 
John Bonee said:
… I want to get a commercial which means I…
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have to prove sobriety to the FAA under the FAAs terms and conditions. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will back be on your way.
 
Half Fast said:
You see this hip pocket on the doll where the wallet goes? Right there.
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I'm sorry you don't know any good lawyers. But since it's all about money, you should know that the average doctor makes more than twice as much as the average lawyer.:dunno:
 
Hector Parra said:
You can go the AA way and also get involved with aviation: Take a discovery flight, join a search and rescue crew as a spotter, volunteer to local airshows, apply for an administrative job on a flight school, etc. That can help in the future with FAA. But forget about FAA/HIMS for a second, and focus on yourself. Your love for aviation will take you away from alcohol and drugs.
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Like I said before, I haven’t touched it since that day. While I know this to be true and most people here are thinking otherwise - it wasn’t aviation that made me quit. I quit because I was scared of what I could become if I continued, along with plenty of other reasons. I matured during that event and have never looked back.
 
bflynn said:
to prove that you’re serious, which you don’t sound like right now.

The program isn’t going to change for you. The sooner you recognize that and make an honest and sincere engagement with it, the sooner you can start toward the path of flying. No excuses, you do it their way or you don’t fly. That’s your choice.

I’m out.
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I came here looking for advice on how to proceed. I don’t know anything about how this is supposed to work - hence the reason I’m here. I came to this website in order to find out what exactly I need to do, how to do, when to do, and where. I wasn’t asking for a program to change to fit my needs - I know that’s not how it works. I am simply looking for answers.
 
bbchien said:
Just FYI, The FAA defines anything over 0.20 is defined as untreted dependency. And the assertion of sobriety is JUST THAT. You need to start an FAA spec negative Urine random program, so that you can substantiate your sobriety. The minimum to certify without rehab is two years of proven sobriety, in a FAA spec program, continuous peer support activity, logged, and then the HIMS Evaluations. That is for a third class only. In subsequent years you can apply for a 1st class upgrade.

You can do the same thing (WITH formal rehab) in 9 months, 1st class, if all is well. An no attorney can help you with that.
Click to expand...

Where do I find this information on this? Like how do I begin? Who do I contact?
 
John Bonee said:
I quit because I was scared of what I could become if I continued, along with plenty of other reasons. I matured during that event and have never looked back.
Click to expand...

I applaud you for getting a grip on this early in life. It's great that many people in your life have witnessed this transition you have made. But the point being made here is that you will have to prove this to the Federal Aviation Administration in accordance with their rules. You ask how to do this but that answer has already been given. I point you again to the answer you wanted:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...dvice-on-an-underage-dui.137555/#post-3239881

This is not an unobtainable goal at all but it will take some time, $$$$, and perseverance.

"We're all counting on you!"
 
John Bonee said:
Like I said before, I haven’t touched it since that day. While I know this to be true and most people here are thinking otherwise - it wasn’t aviation that made me quit. I quit because I was scared of what I could become if I continued, along with plenty of other reasons. I matured during that event and have never looked back.
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And I believe you and applaud your courage. But like @Daleandee says, the FAA won't unless you can legally prove it. We're just trying to provide possible solutions :)
 
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