Help With Motorcycle Law

[SkyHog]

http://ipl.unm.edu/traf/pubs/MC-laws8x11.pdf

Okay, somewhere in here there is going to be a limitation on what I can and cannot do. I just got my Motorcycle Permit (read: not endorsement), and I hear that I cannot ride on highways or at night. I can't find that in this pamphlet, or anywhere else for that matter....the reason I look is to determine whether highway means "Interstate" or any State Highway.

I should point out - I have been seaching that document forever today.

 

[jesse]

Call the DMV and ask? Obviously it's just words over the phone but it's a pretty basic question and they should point you in the right direction. Does your permit list the limitations on it? My Minnesota one did.

 

[gprellwitz]

I presume that you mean instruction permit. (The only other permit I saw was for off-road vehicles). So far I've found:

D. A person fifteen years of age or older who is enrolled in and attending or has completed a driver education course that includes a DWI prevention and education program approved by the bureau or offered by a public school may apply to the division for an instruction permit. The division, in its discretion after the applicant has successfully passed all parts of the examination other than the driving test, may issue to the applicant an instruction permit. This permit entitles the applicant, while having the permit in his immediate possession, to drive a motor vehicle upon the public highways for a period of six months when accompanied by a licensed driver twenty-one years of age or older who has been licensed for at least three years in this state or in another state and who is occupying a seat beside the driver except in the event the permittee is operating a motorcycle.
***
G. A holder of an instruction permit for a motorcycle shall not carry any other passenger while operating a motorcycle.

So I don't find evidence of the restriction you mentioned either. Note, however, that this document is an EXCERPT of the regulations!

 

[SkyHog]

Call the DMV and ask? Obviously it's just words over the phone but it's a pretty basic question and they should point you in the right direction. Does your permit list the limitations on it? My Minnesota one did.

Strangely, the limitations make no sense:

RESTRICTIONS: W-Instructional/Learner, operation w/license of equal or greater class

And that's it. I want to go to Madrid, NM today, but it requires travel on RT66 and HW14 (both State Highways, but neither interstates...). I'll call MVD.

 

[Anthony]

I'll call MVD.

Dyslexia getting the better of you today?

Be careful on getting someone at the DMV to interpret the law for you. Remember you'll not be talking to any rocket surgeons there and they may not even speak English.

 

[jesse]

Dyslexia getting the better of you today?

Motor Vehicle Division

 

[SkyHog]

Odd: "I'm being told by my supervisor that there are no restrictions."

That, after being told to please hold and placed back at the beginning of the phone tree repeatedly.

The last convo:

Her: Thank you for calling MVD.
Me: I need to know what restrictions having a Motorcycle Permit vs. the Endorsement carries.
Her: Permit?
Me: Yes, Class W Permit.
Her: Please hold.

Her: Well you have the endorsement, right?
Me: No, I have a permit.
Her: Did you hold some sort of document that shows you passed a class?
Me: No, I have a license that I got for passing the written exam. It says "Restricted Drivers License" on the front
Her: Wait, you have a restricted driver's license?
Me: No...I have a motorcycle per...
Her: Just give me your SSN.
Me: xxx-xx-xxxx
Her: Hmm...you don't have the endorsement...please hold

Her: I'm being told by my supervisor that there are no restrictions
Me: Ok. Thanks.

 

[Richard]

Log on to the Motorcyclists of America forums and argue the pertinent regulatory parts.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Nick,

IIRC in Wisconsin the only "restriction" is that you can't carry pax. Have a safe ride.

 

[Ghery]

Nick,

IIRC in Wisconsin the only "restriction" is that you can't carry pax. Have a safe ride.

It's been a few decades, but as I recall when they created the motorcycle endorsement for driver licences in the state of Washington the only restriction was "no passengers". But, that was about 1970. And then I haven't had a motorcycle endorsement since 1975.

Take it for what it's worth (not much after all these years).

 

[Missa]

The restrictions in PA:
- Must wear a helmet
- No passengers
- Only durring the day

 

[Ken Ibold]

The restrictions in Florida:
- Must wear a helmet
- No passenger

 

[steingar]

Wear gear. Keeping off the roads at night is a damn good idea no matter what the regs say until you actually know how to ride the thing. Bikes are hard to see in daylight, it gets worse at night.

I took the Fireblade out for the first ride of the season last night. What fun! But I didn't even want to go out after dark, even being a seasoned veteran of the roads, because it's the first ride of the season.

Be safe, ride hard, ride well!

 

[SkyHog]

Well, that was fun. Went out to Madrid. Way too windy to completely enjoy it, but it was warm, and very scenic. The Turquoise Trail is amazing. I took some pictures...Madrid is the place from the movie Wild Hogs.

 

[fgcason]

Just out of curiousity, in NM can you not just walk in and take the motorcycle test at the DMV and be done with it?
Here in CO, the DMV gave me the runaround about permits, training, special classes, special motorcycle testing scheduling problems and yadda yadda. The next morning, I walked in and said I need a motorcycle test for the endorsement and the motorcycle is parked outside. Eight hours of sitting on my rear in line and a 5 minute putter around the parking lot my license had a "M" on it.

That said, get the training anyway so you know what you're doing and do the parking lot skills regularly. And always wear ALL the gear ALL the time with no exceptions..and all the gear means at an absolute minimum: a good crash jacket, boots, crash pants, gloves and a full face helmet..anything less is going to cause a load of grief and pain in the event of a get off. If you ride at night, you need lots of reflective material on your gear or you'll be totally invisible.

 

[SkyHog]

Just out of curiousity, in NM can you not just walk in and take the motorcycle test at the DMV and be done with it?
Here in CO, the DMV gave me the runaround about permits, training, special classes, special motorcycle testing scheduling problems and yadda yadda. The next morning, I walked in and said I need a motorcycle test for the endorsement and the motorcycle is parked outside. Eight hours of sitting on my rear in line and a 5 minute putter around the parking lot my license had a "M" on it.

Yep, I could do that, but I am strapped right now. Spent a lot of money in fines/warrant fees, then a bunch of cash on the permit, which I legally need to get the motorcycle to the testing facility. Now I just need to wait until my next day off (I get paid tomorrow), and I can get the actual endorsement.

That said, get the training anyway so you know what you're doing and do the parking lot skills regularly. And always wear ALL the gear ALL the time with no exceptions..and all the gear means at an absolute minimum: a good crash jacket, boots, crash pants, gloves and a full face helmet..anything less is going to cause a load of grief and pain in the event of a get off. If you ride at night, you need lots of reflective material on your gear or you'll be totally invisible.

I am a big fan of ATGATT, although I did ride a bit today without any jacket on to see what it was like. It was nice, but I felt like I was in for a load of pain any second, so I went back and got the jacket. I have no boots, but that's because I can't get my foot under the gearshift with boots on. I always wear gloves and a full face helmet though.

 

[jesse]

I have no boots, but that's because I can't get my foot under the gearshift with boots on.

So get your wrench out and adjust it to where you can.

 

[Henning]

Always wear ALL the gear ALL the time with no exceptions..and all the gear means at an absolute minimum: a good crash jacket, boots, crash pants, gloves and a full face helmet..anything less is going to cause a load of grief and pain in the event of a get off. If you ride at night, you need lots of reflective material on your gear or you'll be totally invisible.

Yep, it's a good idea, however, I ignore many good ideas. Sunglasses is about the totality of my safety gear unless I'm racing. People look at me funny when they see me in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops.... but I do have my eye protection.

 

[etsisk]

And that'll be fine until you DO go down to the pavement, in which case you'll be wishing you had done otherwise and worrying about skin grafts. And toe and foot sole surgery. But hey, go for it. Really.

C'mon, Henning - you'd give someone who didn't preflight a whole load of crap for doing it half-assed. Why are you doing THIS half-assed??

 

[EdFred]

Yep, it's a good idea, however, I ignore many good ideas. Sunglasses is about the totality of my safety gear unless I'm racing. People look at me funny when they see me in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops.... but I do have my eye protection.

Been there. Helmet law in MI, but other than that I've been just a think layer of cotton away from a full body skin graft. Funny thing is, the only times I've ever dumped the bike, I've been in full gear. And I rarely wear full gear.

 

[EdFred]

Tom, what's a full assed preflight? Do I have to drop my pants and do the preflight like when not driving a ball past the ladies tee while golfing?

Also, are there quarter-assed preflights?

 

[Henning]

And that'll be fine until you DO go down to the pavement, in which case you'll be wishing you had done otherwise and worrying about skin grafts. And toe and foot sole surgery. But hey, go for it. Really.

C'mon, Henning - you'd give someone who didn't preflight a whole load of crap for doing it half-assed. Why are you doing THIS half-assed??

Good question, but then, my machine is always in top shape and in a couple hundred thousand miles riding on the streets including 10 years of So Cal traffic as my all purpose vehicle, I've never been involved in an accident. I've had plenty of crashes both dirt and track when racing, but then I'm flat out for the win and geared up for it. On the streets on a beautiful warm SoFL summer day, I'll take the chance. My main safety factor is I don't ride bikes under 900cc. That allows me to out accellerate the dude between 4 and 8 o'clock who are the only people who can kill me. If I get into it with anyone else, it's my fault, I wasn't paying enough attention, and I always pay attention to everything. The real bad things, it won't matter what you're wearing, you die. Motorcyles are just like flying or operating anything in motion, it's energy management. If you operate in such a way that you always maintain the energy within an envelope respective to the conditions you are operating you can operate within a decent margin of safety irrespective of anyone else. Perfect safety in anything is an impossibility. Would I be safer with full gear, sure, marginally, however, it would negate a good portion of the enjoyment I get from riding, and I'm all about enjoyment. The handling of the machine is not what gives me the enjoyment, not out on the street, that was over a long time ago. I like the wind in my hair and on my skin, even the bugs smacking on me are good. So, I take the extra risk for the factor that brings me joy. As you know, I'm not a risk adverse person (if you don't believe that, ask my mom), so I balance my enjoyment by managing risk from other directions to an acceptable, to me, level.

Comparing riding a motorcycle without full gear to doing a shoddy job of a preflight, I don't get the comparison. Can you tell me any benefit regardless how spurious as mine of joy for riding dressed the way I do, there is to shortcutting a preflight? I preflight well to manage risk that people believe I increase in other ways. Pretty much as I do with motorcycle riding.

 

[fgcason]

Yep, it's a good idea, however, I ignore many good ideas. Sunglasses is about the totality of my safety gear unless I'm racing. People look at me funny when they see me in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops.... but I do have my eye protection.

That's typical motorcycle gear for a substantial portion of the riders in this country. No one even gives that apparel a second glance. Most people look at you like you're nuts and some will actually make fun of you in public if you do wear all the gear.

Eye protection is nice IF you don't fall down and go boom and if an object hits you directly in the eye. Body protection is essential in the event of a violent ride on the 4 grit belt sander. One oopsie at the wrong time without protection and it's extensive skin grafts, ground off face, potentially lethal head impact forces and long term side effects. To each his own, but I'm a wimp when it comes to high kinetic energy and unforgiving surfaces.

I have no boots, but that's because I can't get my foot under the gearshift with boots on.

Nonsense. You just need the right boots for you and your bike. Also don't forget you can adjust the shifter up or down for a better position. I went 1 notch up on mine and I suddenly had plenty of room for boots under the shifter.


This is the difference between a horrific ride in the owie wagon or simply getting up totally unharmed (plus a whopping headache) courtesy of ATGATT after a get off on rather frightening looking gravel/dirt:

 

[gprellwitz]

Okay, this is from the perspective of a non-rider, but whose father was an executive for HD. If you're not ATGATT, you're an OD (Organ Donor), and if I hit you with my 2 ton behemoth and you're injured and/or killed, I won't feel guilty. If you ARE ATGATT and I hit you with my 2-ton behemoth, I'll feel real bad, guilty, inconsolable, etc., but I still win. That said, I DO try to look out for my two-wheeled siblings!

Okay, it's hyperbole, but ride safe!

 

[Henning]

If you're not ATGATT, you're an OD (Organ Donor),

This is a completely false and misleading statement. If you are on a motorcycle regardless of apparel, you are an organ donor, end of story. There is only a very limited range of accidents where the gear you are wearing will make a difference between a fatal and non fatal crash. To think that the poor slob that you just hit with your two ton cage that you didn't feel sorry for because he wasn't wearing full gear would have fared any better with it is just a lie, plain and simple. You can die on a motorcycle following the ATGATT principle as well, it's very easy and it happens every day multiple times. To try to sell people that motorcycles are safe if you wear "all the gear all the time" is just a marketing gimmick, and if the industry felt so strongly about it, why not sell the gear at cost rather than a 400% markup? Can gear help you out? Sure, if you lay your bike down or hit someone, that's about it. When someone hits you, I don't care what you're wearing, you're gonna be f-ed up and potentially better off dead. Will learning how to pay attention to things that are happenning 3 blocks away help you more? Damn straight it will. Learning to prevent the accident is the best protection there is. All the rest of it is about marketing, make people feel safer and not only will they buy motorcycles at high profit margins and back end (or even factory) finance deals, but huge margins on all the gear and accessories. Buying safety is an illussion, safety on a motorcycle is only achieved through intense dilligence in operations, far greater than required in a car or airplane.

 

[gprellwitz]

This is a completely false and misleading statement. If you are on a motorcycle regardless of apparel, you are an organ donor, end of story. There is only a very limited range of accidents where the gear you are wearing will make a difference between a fatal and non fatal crash. To think that the poor slob that you just hit with your two ton cage that you didn't feel sorry for because he wasn't wearing full gear would have fared any better with it is just a lie, plain and simple. You can die on a motorcycle following the ATGATT principle as well, it's very easy and it happens every day multiple times. To try to sell people that motorcycles are safe if you wear "all the gear all the time" is just a marketing gimmick, and if the industry felt so strongly about it, why not sell the gear at cost rather than a 400% markup? Can gear help you out? Sure, if you lay your bike down or hit someone, that's about it. When someone hits you, I don't care what you're wearing, you're gonna be f-ed up and potentially better off dead. Will learning how to pay attention to things that are happenning 3 blocks away help you more? Damn straight it will. Learning to prevent the accident is the best protection there is. All the rest of it is about marketing, make people feel safer and not only will they buy motorcycles at high profit margins and back end (or even factory) finance deals, but huge margins on all the gear and accessories. Buying safety is an illussion, safety on a motorcycle is only achieved through intense dilligence in operations, far greater than required in a car or airplane.

Henning, Can't say that I disagree with much of that. The statement was intentional hyperbole. In a head-on, no gear is going to save the rider. OTOH, if he's sideswiped by someone moving into the lane who doesn't see him, the gear can certainly mmake a significant difference. Now, about the profit margin, I'm going to remain silent! (My dad was with HD for about 2 years, and has been deceased longer than that!)

 

[Henning]

Henning, Can't say that I disagree with much of that. The statement was intentional hyperbole. In a head-on, no gear is going to save the rider. OTOH, if he's sideswiped by someone moving into the lane who doesn't see him, the gear can certainly mmake a significant difference. Now, about the profit margin, I'm going to remain silent! (My dad was with HD for about 2 years, and has been deceased longer than that!)

Never seen a piece of gear that prevents a crushed or severed femoral artery, doesn't matter if you're in full gear or naked, if it happens, you're most likely gonna bleed out. BTW, the side swipe is why I tend not to wear helmets on the street, I like to hear them and sense them over there, and my personal experience after CA enacted their helmet law was I no longer had the same level of awareness of who ws in that 4-8 position (it's the 4 oclock guy that'll get you every time). The best thing is to not let people hit you.

 

[jesse]

I like to hear them and sense them over there, and my personal experience after CA enacted their helmet law was I no longer had the same level of awareness of who ws in that 4-8 position

Get a good helmet and your visibility will be the same. As far as hearing it? I've found that after about 20 minutes of riding I can't hear a damn thing. I can keep my hearing in the best shape with ear plugs and a full face helmet. At the end of the ride I can still hear cars. Without ear plugs and a helmet I can't hear anything.

 

[RogerT]

Don't they recognize the MSF courses there? Here in Nebraska you go and
take the MSF course (the community college gives it .. the harley dealer
gives it) and then you take the card that you passed to DMV and they
put the M on your driver's license. I'd had the M on mine years ago and
then didn't ride for a few years and somehow they dropped it off of
there, probably when they computerized everything. So .. I went
and took the 2 1/2 day course because I thought a review would be
good anyway. It was fun. That was that.

To be honest though .. I just rode without it for about 4 months till
they started up the classes for the season.

RT

 

[Henning]

Get a good helmet and your visibility will be the same. As far as hearing it? I've found that after about 20 minutes of riding I can't hear a damn thing. I can keep my hearing in the best shape with ear plugs and a full face helmet. At the end of the ride I can still hear cars. Without ear plugs and a helmet I can't hear anything.

Visibility isn't the problem, it's the hearing, and I can hear the change in the airsteam past my ears when someone get's close to my 4-8 position and I instantly dial on the throttle to get away from them, I don't look back, I just go forward. I don't listen for the car, I listen for the difference in the wind noise, and you don't get that with a helmet on.

 

[Henning]

Henning, Can't say that I disagree with much of that. The statement was intentional hyperbole. In a head-on, no gear is going to save the rider. OTOH, if he's sideswiped by someone moving into the lane who doesn't see him, the gear can certainly mmake a significant difference. Now, about the profit margin, I'm going to remain silent! (My dad was with HD for about 2 years, and has been deceased longer than that!)

BTW, I consider this accident the motorcyclists fault for not paying attention. With motorcycle riding, one has to apply the mindset of having strict liability, it's the only attitude you can have. Once you start thinking "Well the other guy should" you're only time away from an ambulance ride. It's always "They are..., so I must....".

 

[etsisk]

Ok, it wasn't the best comparison - but flying without a preflight saves those guys that extra few minutes of hassle, just like not putting on the right gear saves hassle, of one sort or another. And while I think it's dumb to wear t-shirts and shorts (for any number of reasons), the biggest mistake is in the footwear - or utter lack of it. When things get hairy, being able to put a foot down can come in mighty handy. And I think at those times, you're going to PUT your foot down, whether you're wearing flip-flops or not. And if you are wearing flip-flops, you're gonna be one seriously unhappy cowpoke immediately thereafter, and for some time to come.

And if you are counting on the fact that you haven't had a serious get-off in 200k miles, then you are counting on luck that that state of affairs is going to continue. I've got over half a million miles on motorcycles and have seen a lot, like you. I've seen the best rider I've ever known have a problem - and if it can happen to him, it can happen to you and me.

 

[Trapper John]

Wear gear. Keeping off the roads at night is a damn good idea no matter what the regs say until you actually know how to ride the thing. Bikes are hard to see in daylight, it gets worse at night.

I took the Fireblade out for the first ride of the season last night. What fun! But I didn't even want to go out after dark, even being a seasoned veteran of the roads, because it's the first ride of the season.

Concur on the night riding. Around here, deer, raccoons and possums can be a significant hazard, too. Even in our low population state, 8 or 9 riders came to grief with deer last year. Very sad, deer are like 200 lb rats, and there aren't any wolves left to control the population.

Trapper John

 

[Anthony]

And if you are counting on the fact that you haven't had a serious get-off in 200k miles, then you are counting on luck that that state of affairs is going to continue. I've got over half a million miles on motorcycles and have seen a lot, like you. I've seen the best rider I've ever known have a problem - and if it can happen to him, it can happen to you and me.

This is so true. IMHO, I think an incident is only a matter of time on a bike. You may not get killed, you may not even get hurt, but at some point your going to have to lay it down, or deal with gravel or some texting motorist will ding you. I started riding dirt bikes at 9 and of course had to get a string of bigger road bikes from my teens to twenties and thirties. I hung it up when I started flying at 35. I figured I had beat the odds with no bad injuries. Sorry to sound fatalistic, but that's reality.

Man I'd love to get a bike again though.

 

[steingar]

Henning, I am genuinely shocked. You are always such a stand up guy, and you almost always know spot on what you're talking about. But I've haven't read such a lame set of rationalizations in some time. Just because you've ridden a lot doesn't make you immune from a crash. Sorry dude, I bet I have 2-3X your experience, and I even crashed last winter. I had gear and it was nearly a non-event. I have little doubt I would have been hospitalized without.

Every guy who crashes isn't a noob or a moron. Bad things happen to good people all the time. You're right, no amount of gear will save you from a head on collision with something. Gear will save you from the get-off when you swerved to avoid the one stupid cager you didn't see until the last minute, or the pedestrian who casually stepped into the road, or the granny who comes to a dead stop for no reason. No one sees everything.

Sorry dude, you are so way off track its astonishing. I personally know guys who've laid bikes down going triple digits at the track who walked away from it. I know guys laid down bikes on the freeway walked away. I know lots of dead guys, and the one thing they all have in common was no gear. Hell, one guy died on my street and he wasn't even speeding! If he'd had his helmet on he would have lived. Gear doesn't make bikes safe, only attitude can do that. It does make them safer, though.

 

[etsisk]

oh, and I missed the part about no helmet - there are plenty of helmets out there that allow you to hear just as well as you can with no helmet, so that doesn't fly, either. Plus, if it's the change in sound, well you get a change in sound when you're wearing a helmet, too.

 

[Henning]

Ok, it wasn't the best comparison - but flying without a preflight saves those guys that extra few minutes of hassle, just like not putting on the right gear saves hassle, of one sort or another. And while I think it's dumb to wear t-shirts and shorts (for any number of reasons), the biggest mistake is in the footwear - or utter lack of it. When things get hairy, being able to put a foot down can come in mighty handy. And I think at those times, you're going to PUT your foot down, whether you're wearing flip-flops or not. And if you are wearing flip-flops, you're gonna be one seriously unhappy cowpoke immediately thereafter, and for some time to come.

And if you are counting on the fact that you haven't had a serious get-off in 200k miles, then you are counting on luck that that state of affairs is going to continue. I've got over half a million miles on motorcycles and have seen a lot, like you. I've seen the best rider I've ever known have a problem - and if it can happen to him, it can happen to you and me.

I count on luck for nothing. Putting your foot down except at a traffic stop is almost always the incorrect move unless you're riding motocross or flat track, and then I'm wearing boots. If I get myself into a situation I can't throttle out of, well, that's my f-up and I'll pay for it, but then, it doesn't really happen. I'm not saying I always wear shorts, flip flops and a t-shirt, but when I'm riding down to the beach on a nice day, it doesn't scare me one bit to. My main qualm here is that everybody is harping on riding appearal, when the main safety item everybody is ignoring is the mental process. ALWAYS leave a spot to accellerate into ahead, ALWAYS. That is your main point of safety on a motorcycle. Never let your state of energy exceed your stopability, visibility, manuverability or awareness, whichever is least, never. Following those two rules will serve a rider much better than any armour plating. I hear riders refer to their appareal as their armour as well, and that always concerns me because it's a line of thought that can lead to lowering ones guard with feelings of lessened vulnerability. When I'm shirtless in shorts, sunglasses and flip flops, I am keenly aware of my vulnerability and ALL of my surroundings.

 

[Henning]

Henning, I am genuinely shocked. You are always such a stand up guy, and you almost always know spot on what you're talking about. But I've haven't read such a lame set of rationalizations in some time. Just because you've ridden a lot doesn't make you immune from a crash. Sorry dude, I bet I have 2-3X your experience, and I even crashed last winter. I had gear and it was nearly a non-event. I have little doubt I would have been hospitalized without.

Every guy who crashes isn't a noob or a moron. Bad things happen to good people all the time. You're right, no amount of gear will save you from a head on collision with something. Gear will save you from the get-off when you swerved to avoid the one stupid cager you didn't see until the last minute, or the pedestrian who casually stepped into the road, or the granny who comes to a dead stop for no reason. No one sees everything.

Sorry dude, you are so way off track its astonishing. I personally know guys who've laid bikes down going triple digits at the track who walked away from it. I know guys laid down bikes on the freeway walked away. I know lots of dead guys, and the one thing they all have in common was no gear. Hell, one guy died on my street and he wasn't even speeding! If he'd had his helmet on he would have lived. Gear doesn't make bikes safe, only attitude can do that. It does make them safer, though.

I may be, but then, I'm not rationalizing anything. I fully accept the exact level of risk I am at at all times and I choose to accept it in the light of the reward I seek that would be unavailable under circumstances that marginally reduce that risk. If I'm goint to be restricted to ATGATT, motorcyles are not worth it to me and I won't ride at all. I started riding as a little kid on a Yamaha Mini Enduro, raced bikes in various modes both dirt and concrete, competed in ISDT events, rode strictly motorcycles for a decade in CA until the very end. The riding of the bike isn't what brings me the pleasure anymore, it's the tool I use to get the pleasure that it can allow me. If I am fully geared for a ride down to the beach, it's not pleasant, I'd rather be in my POS Dodge Neon with the stereo and A/C. I don't delude myself with notions of perfect safety, just that of risk managed to a reasonable level while allowing me to achieve my desires. I don't rationalize, I merely accept more risk than others are willing to. I don't call anybody a wimp for wearing what ever gear or taking whatever precautions that I may not always take, it's all a matter of personal choice.

 

[Henning]

oh, and I missed the part about no helmet - there are plenty of helmets out there that allow you to hear just as well as you can with no helmet, so that doesn't fly, either. Plus, if it's the change in sound, well you get a change in sound when you're wearing a helmet, too.

That's just it, I tried many different helmets, and I just lost that biaural sound differential, the aerodynamics of the helmet always screwed it up. If you've got a helmet recommendation, I'd love to see it.

 

[steingar]

A lot of gear is "armored" meaning that it has some padding to ameliorate a collision, mostly with the pavement. Most bikers realize they're not wearing a suit of armor. All I can say is your first crash will be your last. If Murphy can get me he can get you too. The difference is mine was more an inconvenience, yours will be debilitating. Your choice, and you are entitled to make it.