How much frost...

600gt sandpaper? I have flown many a/c with paint jobs rougher than that, lol.
Maybe you meant 120gt or coarser?
Not saying you should ignore that frost - or any frost. I don't.

It wasn't always that way.
In my first 5 years of flying (Great Lakes winters like dtuuri, but Canadian side) there was not the concern about frost, we were never given any ACs about frost, we all used our own judgment and what we believed to be common sense (not saying that is adequate, this is just my history of it).
No hangars, all a/c were kept outside, very few had wing covers. There were tons of morning flights and I have participated in, or witnessed, hours of brooming, scraping, yes hot water (don't immediately dismiss that one), hot water in trash bags held on the wing, glove-wiping, polishing. (Rare were the days we had any sun, or enough to rely on that to melt frost, snow, or ice.) If we wanted to fly, there was always going to be some contamination even after an hour of hard work.
The airplanes I was involved with were all thick-wing ie Cessna 100 series, many other 4-seat factory built metal or fabric planes.
I know many flew with more than just frost and many dismissed the contamination because it was smooth and symmetrical and likely because it was 'fine last time' (there's a 'gotcha' attitude)

Then, there were some accidents thought to be attributed to frost, and I think some lab testing done to prove the loss of lift.

So, to get zero accidents from frost, we now must have zero frost.
It's a pilot requirement....and I think not a ridiculous one. We probably have a frost prediction website somewhere now, so you can tell if you will need that $100 out of town hangar tonight!
 
Frost... First of all who many accidents occur every year with frost being the major or contributing factor? How many accidents is fuel exhaustion the major cause? How many accidents is weather the major factor?

As a private pilot I have lived and flow in Alaska for 25 years. 24 of those years my plane has been parked outside and I fly 11 months a year. The 1 month I do not fly is my maintenance month. I rent a hangar for 1 month and do maintenance, upgrades and an annual inspection.

Starting in the fall season I put cabin, wing and tail covers on. I use a soft bristle brush with a 5 foot handle to rub frost and snow off the fuselage, wings and tail when needed. Turning the plane into the sun helps as well.

Make the right choice/decision, remove or polish the frost off. Visually check the fuel and don't fly in weather beyond the pilots/aircraft limitations.

Be safe and have fun flying.
 
Very rough, hard clear ice that you’d get from an overnight freezing rain is for sure a no-go. OPs frost that is like sandpaper is a different story - unless you’re in a situation where you need max performance you most likely won’t notice a difference.

A “friend” used to work for a now defunct operator that was too cheap to pay for deicing fluid for him to defrost his airplane in the morning. They made him go fly around solo until all the frost had sublimated and then he’d pick up passengers and start flying revenue.

I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but it was done.
 
Actually the wings on most legacy light GA aircraft are not as susceptible, but if you think they are ask yourself why you see so few Aztecs and Barons with any ice protection and about every SR22 you will see has it.
Have you read 91.527? If so, I’m not sure how anyone could argue that it shouldn’t apply to light GA aircraft either.
 
Have you read 91.527? If so, I’m not sure how anyone could argue that it shouldn’t apply to light GA aircraft either.

C'mon man. People argue the the earth is flat. I'm just sayin...
 
C'mon man. People argue the the earth is flat. I'm just sayin...
Oh I know... I’ve gotta look at the source. Nit pickers will be nit pickers.
 
I carry glycol with me, if there is frost, I wipe it down with a microfiber and glycol until it’s gone
 

The Boldmethod writers are hopelessly clueless when it comes to practicality. You can polish frost smooth and its perfectly safe. According to that boldmethod article any old ****box with a crappy paintjob wouldn’t be able to get airborne. The only reason the polished frost rule doesn’t exist anymore is because some guy took off in Dillingham, AK in an overgrossed caravan and sucked all the flaps up at once - stalled and killed 9 or 10 people. That’s pilot error, but the FAA loves to change the rules so away went the polished frost clause.

Boldmethod also talks about how it’s unsafe to fly in crosswinds over 15 knots and says that Special VFR is dangerous.

They *can* be dangerous, just like anything else. If you properly understand the risks and mitigating strategies there is no added risk.
 
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Have you read 91.527? If so, I’m not sure how anyone could argue that it shouldn’t apply to light GA aircraft either.

I am just telling you that aircraft with laminar flow airfoils are much more susceptible than old puffy wing aircraft. From a practical stand point you could never fly at night in fall/spring/winter in some parts of the north because frost reforming after you cleaned it off. At times you can visually see it failing early mornings before sunrise.
 
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The Boldmethod writers are hopelessly clueless when it comes to practicality. You can polish frost smooth and its perfect safe. According to that boldmethod article any old ****box with a crappy paintjob wouldn’t be able to get airborne. The only reason the polished frost rule doesn’t exist anymore is because some guy took off in Dillingham, AK in an overgrossed caravan and sucked all the flaps up at once - stalled and killed 9 or 10 people. That’s pilot error, but the FAA loves to change the rules so away went the polished frost clause.

Boldmethod also talks about how it’s unsafe to fly in crosswinds over 15 knots and that Special VFR is dangerous.

I believe that accident was about ice on the tail. I had a long talk about it with one of the company bosses. Apparently Caravans don't do well with ice on the tail.
 
I believe that accident was about ice on the tail. I had a long talk about it with one of the company bosses. Apparently Caravans don't do well with ice on the tail.

They don’t. I think most guys who have flown caravans for any length of time (excluding those who flew SIC in a Caravan in Hawaii and still like to think they know what they are talking about like some of the Boldmethod “contributors”) have a tailstall story. Thankfully, mine happened when I pulled all the power out in the roundout while I was landing. I suspected it might happen but it was so sudden it was very jarring.

If I had it my way Caravans wouldn’t be FIKI certified, but thats a topic for a different thread. Caravans are great and stable IFR platforms but they really don’t have any business in ice at all. I’m covering temporarily in a Caravan for my company and I made it very clear that unless the freezing level was above the MEA or the ceiling was above the MEA I was staying glued firmly to the couch.
 
The Boldmethod writers are hopelessly clueless when it comes to practicality. You can polish frost smooth and its perfectly safe. According to that boldmethod article any old ****box with a crappy paintjob wouldn’t be able to get airborne. The only reason the polished frost rule doesn’t exist anymore is because some guy took off in Dillingham, AK in an overgrossed caravan and sucked all the flaps up at once - stalled and killed 9 or 10 people. That’s pilot error, but the FAA loves to change the rules so away went the polished frost clause.

Boldmethod also talks about how it’s unsafe to fly in crosswinds over 15 knots and says that Special VFR is dangerous.

They *can* be dangerous, just like anything else. If you properly understand the risks and mitigating strategies there is no added risk.
Which of the 6 points in the article did you disagree with?
 
Which of the 6 points in the article did you disagree with?

I don’t disagree with any of it, I just don’t think that copy-pasting stuff from the AIM and FARs should qualify as content.

Yes, frost decreases the performance of your airplane. Yes, it can be dangerous - but there’s an asterisk - *if you do not understand the risks and how to mitigate them.

If you take off with polished frost which is perfectly legal if you’re part 91 you have to be mindful of the potential risks, but that doesn’t make it dangerous.

As OP found out, it really can be a non-event. Good thing he didn’t read the article from the sky-gawds over at BM to tell him that what he was about to do by their metric was borderline suicidal.
 
Everything went as expected. So.... how do I tell how much frost is an issue? Did I make a poor decision and get away with it? If so, I'd like to know so I'm not tempted to push further next time.
I feel you made a good decision because you had plenty of runway to safely TEST this frost level's effect on your airplane and now you KNOW. One test is worth 1000 opinions as opposed to to endless blah, blah forums usually produce.
 
Well, shoot. I was hoping for some clarity. Sounds like about 2/3 strictly follow the zero tolerance rule, and then several people offer first hand experience of it being a manageable risk. Seems like there's a fuzzy line in there somewhere that is dangerous to approach, and is likely different for each aircraft. If you find it, you might be screwed. It also seems like slicker, faster airplanes are probably more effected than slower, dirtier aircraft, hence the prohibition on turbine powered A/C having ANY frost. I was surprised to learn that 'polishing' frost was a recommended solution as recently as about 10 years ago.

I searched the NTSB database for any accident in the last 10 years of a piston a/c with the keyword 'frost'. I found 12 accidents of varying severity after discarding a few that attempted takeoff with snow piled on the wings, and airplanes that picked up ice in flight.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20001212X20086&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
Supercub 150lbs overweight, 1/4-1/2" frost on wings, heavy fog, 2 fatal
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20001212X20187&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
Bellanca, 1200' grass strip packed with snow
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20001212X21883&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
Supercub taking off from gravel bar, removed frost with a rope
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20010507X00888&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA.
Stinson 108, 2000' grass strip-grass 9" tall & wet
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20021010X05307&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
This was a Beaver float plane. The report only said frost found on wings. I would guess it's not easy to inspect/deice a high-wing on floats.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20021118X05478&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
This is a 172 where the pilot claims to have deiced the airplane prior to takeoff...this one bothers me a bit
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20030207X00180&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
Beech 18 that didn't use full power for takeoff...
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20031212X02022&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
Sky Arrow, fatal, may have not attempted to remove ice/frost
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20051109X01815&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=CA
172, pilot 'polished frost w/ a broom'...uphill on 1950' RW, got airborne in ground effect 300' before end of RW, then tried to abort.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20121115X23258&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
Grumman AA-1, fatal, impacted terrain 3 miles away from A/P, had climbed 776 feet.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20131001X24533&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=CA
Supercub taking off from a public street and hit a pole. Alaska is weird.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20150120X24700&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
182 with 1/4-1/2" frost climbed 50', then stalled

So after all this.....
I feel like I made a reasonable decision. The surface didn't feel any rougher with the frost than it did with just normal dust/dirt, and there wasn't enough to add appreciable weight. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have wiped the wings down with a towel to remove what I could. The poster with the 150 echoed my experience...the A/C performed significantly better with a little frost than it does in the summer, but no one would tell me not to take off with a 3000' density altitude. The risk as some mentioned is to continue pushing the envelope.
 
The poster with the 150 echoed my experience...the A/C performed significantly better with a little frost than it does in the summer, but no one would tell me not to take off with a 3000' density altitude. The risk as some mentioned is to continue pushing the envelope.

There ya go ruining the alarmist narrative with common sense and experience.
 
I don’t disagree with any of it, I just don’t think that copy-pasting stuff from the AIM and FARs should qualify as content.

Yes, frost decreases the performance of your airplane. Yes, it can be dangerous - but there’s an asterisk - *if you do not understand the risks and how to mitigate them.

If you take off with polished frost which is perfectly legal if you’re part 91 you have to be mindful of the potential risks, but that doesn’t make it dangerous.

As OP found out, it really can be a non-event. Good thing he didn’t read the article from the sky-gawds over at BM to tell him that what he was about to do by their metric was borderline suicidal.
I have a zero tolerance for frost unless some of it is approved in the manual (like cold soaked fuel on the underside of the tanks). There’s some things that I’m not comfortable pushing and for others it may not be a big issue. I think it can be dangerous to get into the mindset of “well it worked before so...” There’s definitely some grey areas and some black and white areas. Frost IMO should be a black and white but clearly that’s not the case. My comfort level isn’t yours and yours isn’t mine. If I get into an accident because my wing wasn’t clean of all contaminants, the inspector won’t care if I say “it worked before.”
 
Can I have a raise of hands for anyone who has actually experienced the difference first hand of taking off with some frost on the wings? Because I only have enough C150 experience and I can tell that a little frost does not make much difference at all. Much less than the difference a hot day makes. So while I am not saying that it is safe for you to take off with a little frost, I know that some light frost, knocked down with my glove, on my wings is less concerning that that 95-100 degree day in the summer.

Our club president looked over two weeks ago and questioned me about going flying - Frost! wow, are you sure? This coming from a guy with 15,000+ hours, recently retired American captain, and owner of a Stearman. But also little experience flying an old Cessna in winter. His thinking was all about the hours on the 757, laminar flow wings, and OPS procedures prohibiting flying with any frost. I am just a low time pilot, but I few through the winter and had better performance with some light frost than in the summer heat. I don't take it lightly, it is something to always look at and consider, just not quite the same way as an airliner due to the old rough wings of the old forgiving plane.

More people would raise their hands, if they were not 6 feet under from trying it.
 
More people would raise their hands, if they were not 6 feet under from trying it.
Look at those accident reports and you find that most of them are making decisions that are much worse than the frost on their wings. 9” wet grass and less than 2000’, gravel bar with frost, 1200’ covered in snow, uphill runways, 150lbs overweight and heavy fog.

I never said get rid of common sense, just that the dirty old Cessna wings are not affected by frost to the degree that laminar flow wings are. I try to get rid of all the frost that I can, I even just bought a little 1/2 gallon sprayer for my antifreeze. But if there are a few small patches left when I step in and the runway is long and smooth, I know it will be a safe decision.
 
More people would raise their hands, if they were not 6 feet under from trying it.
It is a fundamental right of a free person to take risks. If safety is your greatest goal then stay away from GA airplanes altogether. I am glad that there are those that will experiment in the quest to KNOW. Until tests are conducted, some quite dangerous, all we have are endless opinions. Think of the first of our distant ancestors that dared to cross over a mountain to see what was on the other side.
 
Plus it's not legal to take off with contamination.
I'm pretty sure this statement was disproven in post #22 above. But, honestly, even if it is true, let the first person who has never violated a FAR throw the first stone.

but, hey, if it makes you guys feel better about yourself...more pure...more righteous...then go for it! Just don't expect a lot of us with problem solving and analytical ability to listen.
 
I'm pretty sure this statement was disproven in post #22 above. But, honestly, even if it is true, let the first person who has never violated a FAR throw the first stone.

but, hey, if it makes you guys feel better about yourself...more pure...more righteous...then go for it! Just don't expect a lot of us with problem solving and analytical ability to listen.

Lots of righteousness in this thread! Of the “self” variety, that is...
 
I'm pretty sure this statement was disproven in post #22 above. But, honestly, even if it is true, let the first person who has never violated a FAR throw the first stone.

but, hey, if it makes you guys feel better about yourself...more pure...more righteous...then go for it! Just don't expect a lot of us with problem solving and analytical ability to listen.

Yeah, I wonder if the hardliners in this thread make sure theres no bugs or bird crap anywhere on the airplane before every flight.

We need to make it illegal to fly dirty airplanes!
 
It is a fundamental right of a free person to take risks. If safety is your greatest goal then stay away from GA airplanes altogether. I am glad that there are those that will experiment in the quest to KNOW. Until tests are conducted, some quite dangerous, all we have are endless opinions. Think of the first of our distant ancestors that dared to cross over a mountain to see what was on the other side.
Just as long as a passenger who doesn't know the potential risks isn't involved, knock yourself out with your experiment, hopefully not literally.
It need not be dangerous anymore as you can convert your plane into a giant drone and try all sorts of experiments now at no risk to yourself.
As I said earlier, there's no reason to turn the frost-bearing surfaces into the sun and wait another 10-15 minutes and avoid the situation altogether.

The earlier comparison with hot/high density altitude really doesn't apply because someone has provided the performance data for the plane, at least as depicted in the PoH I've used for those planes. A more apt comparison is hot/high beyond the envelope depicted on the charts. Trying to fly outside that envelope makes you a test pilot.
 
As I said earlier, there's no reason to turn the frost-bearing surfaces into the sun and wait another 10-15 minutes and avoid the situation altogether.

Yeah, well, except the OP was taking off in the evening just after the sun went down and not early in the AM...

54F33036-9B44-4891-97F4-C938D4AA635D.png
 
Sunrise was about 13 hours away yet....
 
Yeah, I wonder if the hardliners in this thread make sure theres no bugs or bird crap anywhere on the airplane before every flight.

We need to make it illegal to fly dirty airplanes!

Actually if dirty, I clean it before putting it away in the hangar, or if winter time, I roll it inside and clean asap. Much easier to get the bugs off when still fresh, than waiting 3 days and doing it before I go to fly again.
 
Actually if dirty, I clean it before putting it away in the hangar, or if winter time, I roll it inside and clean asap. Much easier to get the bugs off when still fresh, than waiting 3 days and doing it before I go to fly again.
I fly from a grass strip and sometimes just taxiing around gets mud and grass on the horizontal stabilizer and even under side of the wings if it’s a bad day. Just to get to my checkride, I had to full power taxi through deep muddy grass at 6 am to get from the parking space to the runway and ended up landing at the DPEs airport with my plane covered in mud and grass. Can’t clean the plane before flying if the mud sprays from the tires on the takeoff roll.
 
Can I have a raise of hands for anyone who has actually experienced the difference first hand of taking off with some frost on the wings? Because I only have enough C150 experience and I can tell that a little frost does not make much difference at all. Much less than the difference a hot day makes. So while I am not saying that it is safe for you to take off with a little frost, I know that some light frost, knocked down with my glove, on my wings is less concerning that that 95-100 degree day in the summer.

Our club president looked over two weeks ago and questioned me about going flying - Frost! wow, are you sure? This coming from a guy with 15,000+ hours, recently retired American captain, and owner of a Stearman. But also little experience flying an old Cessna in winter. His thinking was all about the hours on the 757, laminar flow wings, and OPS procedures prohibiting flying with any frost. I am just a low time pilot, but I few through the winter and had better performance with some light frost than in the summer heat. I don't take it lightly, it is something to always look at and consider, just not quite the same way as an airliner due to the old rough wings of the old forgiving plane.

You have no idea what the new stalling AOA of your frosted wing might have been. Maybe it was 1 degree lower or maybe 5. Perhaps you were a lot closer to a accident than you think. The problem is you have you simply don’t know. Some rules in flying we call blood rules because blood was spilled to learn the rule. A clean wing is a blood rule. The fact that you feel your climb performance means you made the correct choice makes your thought process that much scarier.

“Frost does not change the basic aerodynamic shape of the wing, but the roughness of its surface spoils the smooth flow of air thus causing a slowing of the airflow. This slowing of the air causes early air flow separation over the affected airfoil resulting in a loss of lift. A heavy coat of hard frost will cause a 5 to 10 percent increase in stall speed. Even a small amount of frost on airfoils may prevent an aircraft from becoming airborne at normal takeoff speed. Also possible is that, once airborne, an aircraft could have insufficient margin of airspeed above stall so that moderate gusts or turning flight could produce incipient or complete stalling.”
 
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Yeah, well, except the OP was taking off in the evening just after the sun went down and not early in the AM...

View attachment 80172
I question if that was truly frost, and not a type of icing. It's uncommon, but certainly not impossible, for frost to form immediately after sunset. It is possible for visible moisture to deposit on a cold object and appear as frost. The images below are examples of such icing. It formed during the day; the trees were cold but there was a wind blowing moisture which deposited the ice on the tree. If my hypothesis was correct, there was a light wind blowing. The images are of two separate episodes I've observed this sort of icing.

JAK_8159.jpg IMG_0016a.JPG
 
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