After a Crash

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
I told you the story of my friend crashing. Now I'll talk more about what happens after you crash. You can call it a long-winded rant.

To start off, I'll tell those of you that haven't heard before, I was in a crash myself several years ago. What happened to me, happened to my friend, and now I'm hearing it happened to several other crash victims as well.

My friend crashed somewhere around 3:20PM. By the time I got to the scene, the firetrucks and most of the local police were gone. The State Troopers had taken over controlling the scene. When I pulled up, rolling my window down, I think I startled the Trooper who was blocking the road with his car. He turned on his siren! I laughed and told him I was stopping to talk to him. I told him who I was (my friend had told them I was coming) and he said it was okay for me to drive on up to the crash scene.

The first Trooper I ran into at the scene warned me that even though I was there to take my friend home, we couldn't leave until after the FAA came out to talk to him. I told him I understood that that is what he thought, but I was going to try to convince my friend to go to the hospital and if he was willing, we were leaving. He wasn't happy with me, and I asked if my friend was under arrest and he said no. I asked if he was being detained and he wouldn't really answer me. I told him I wasn't going to continue arguing with him and what happened next would depend on my friend's decision.

I know some of you are thinking I stirred things up unnecessarily, but I simply wanted them to understand that I know they can not refuse medical treatment.

My friend didn't want to go to the hospital and I didn't try to force him. Looking back, I should have. He had a cut on his head and wasn't acting right. That being said, we stayed.

After making him wait at the scene over 4 hours, the guy from the FAA finally showed up. He asked my friend a few questions. Where did you take off from? Where were you going? You weren't using the plane for business, right? Have you ever used the plane for business? You lost power? What altitude were you at? Then he asked the last question, "What do you think happened?" I cut my friend off and told him not to answer that and it was over. That's why he had to stay on scene for over four hours... for a handful of questions. He took photos of my friends license, medical, etc. He then walked around the plane for awhile and my friend said he didn't feel good and went to sit in my truck to get warm.

Around 8:30PM, I finally lost it and told the FAA rep that we were leaving. If he had anymore questions he could call. I told him my friend was feeling bad, he hadn't had any food, etc. He said he had more questions and it wouldn't take long and I told him no, we were done for the day. He had been on the scene for over 5 hours at that point.

Earler, one of the Troopers told me it was common to keep people on the scene until the investigation was over, even in a car accident. I told him I believed that to be somewhat true, but I gave him a comparison. Let's say this was a Chevy Suburban instead of an airplane. A guy loses control, hits another car and flips. You arrive and you see he is sober, he just lost control. Nobody was in the other car, and the driver only has minor injuries. Would he still be sitting on the scene 5 hours later? What about 2 hours later? He admitted they wouldn't.

I'm not asking you all to agree with me, and I do want to hear other people's opinions. In my opinion, when we're in an airplane accident we should be treated like victims. I believe we're treated like criminals. They will detain you if you try to leave! Why do we let them treat us this way? I sat out in the heat for over 4 hours when I crashed and the FAA never even showed up! I should be able to give my info to the police and then go home and wait for the FAA to call me.

I hope you're never in a crash, but if you are I recommend you go to the hospital whether you think you need to or not. It's the only way you can leave! I think they want to keep us on the scene so they can ask us questions while we're still in shock or not thinking clearly. I will also tell you the same thing I told my friend. NEVER answer the question, "What do you think happened?" Don't fall for that trap. They are the investigators, make them investigate. Maybe because of what I've gone through, but I always think they're trying to find something that will make it my fault. I wish I didn't feel this way.
 
After my gear-up landing (mechanical issue) the FAA were great. No officials turned up that day, we just stepped out, removed the airplane from the runway and had a beer. Two FAA guys phoned a couple of days later to find out what happened, it was quick and easy, and they told me it sounded like we did everything right and we wouldn't need to talk again. Our A&P tells me they visited to see the airplane, and the visit went much the same. Just another data point.
 
Katamarino said:
After my gear-up landing (mechanical issue) the FAA were great. No officials turned up that day, we just stepped out, removed the airplane from the runway and had a beer. Two FAA guys phoned a couple of days later to find out what happened, it was quick and easy, and they told me it sounded like we did everything right and we wouldn't need to talk again. Our A&P tells me they visited to see the airplane, and the visit went much the same. Just another data point.
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What state were you in? I'm wondering how much of this is the Texas State Troopers and the FAA vs. other states.

Also, a gear-up landing may not be considered a priority as compared to a bigger crash.
 
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If I was bleeding and acting odd after a plane crash I would want my friend to ask the police to get me an ambulance. They’re not going to argue with that and it’s the only logical step.
 
On reread of my last post it sounds like I’m criticizing you. I’m not. I’m saying I think your instincts were right, in fact, I think you didn’t go far enough.
 
I think you are right for the most part, especially in cutting your friend off before he gave a statement that could be used against him in court. However, I would venture a guess that you weren't being "treated like criminals" so much as the LEOs trying to fill out every check-box they had before you left. I'm sure it can be somewhat of a hassle for them to get a hold of those involved in a crash after they leave the scene. They are also unlikely to deal with airplane crashes too often, so they are probably a bit unsure as to exact protocol regarding the involvement of the FAA or other non-LEO entities, so you might cut them a bit of slack there.

The FAA guy probably should have asked all of his witness-questionnaire items in one sitting and been done with it. No reason to ask a few questions, then go take pics, then ask more questions, etc. Once all of the questions have been asked (shouldn't take more than 30-45 minutes at most), everyone should be free to go while the FAA investigator takes photos and documents the particulars of the crash scene.
 
I think you handled it right, Jack. There’s no reason for them to detain the pilot for that long—absurd.He needed to get away from the scene and clear his mind.
 
Salty said:
On reread of my last post it sounds like I’m criticizing you. I’m not. I’m saying I think your instincts were right, in fact, I think you didn’t go far enough.
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I understand. The ambulance did show up, but he refused treatment. When I crashed, I did the same. Looking back, not so smart.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I understand. The ambulance did show up, but he refused treatment. When I crashed, I did the same. Looking back, not so smart.
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Talking to myself here as much as anyone else.... That’s a good reason not to refuse care. It’s sort of implying to everyone that you’re ok to be questioned for as long as necessary
 
SoonerAviator said:
However, I would venture a guess that you weren't being "treated like criminals" so much as the LEOs trying to fill out every check-box they had before you left. I'm sure it can be somewhat of a hassle for them to get a hold of those involved in a crash after they leave the scene. They are also unlikely to deal with airplane crashes too often, so they are probably a bit unsure as to exact protocol regarding the involvement of the FAA or other non-LEO entities, so you might cut them a bit of slack there.

The FAA guy probably should have asked all of his witness-questionnaire items in one sitting and been done with it. No reason to ask a few questions, then go take pics, then ask more questions, etc. Once all of the questions have been asked (shouldn't take more than 30-45 minutes at most), everyone should be free to go while the FAA investigator takes photos and documents the particulars of the crash scene.
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To say you can't leave the scene or you'll be detained is treating someone like a criminal in my mind. I'm not blaming the police, and no, it had nothing to do with them being unsure of the protocol. They clearly told me they had called the FAA and the FAA told them not to let him leave the scene until they arrived. They told me this is standard protocol. In Texas, the State Troopers always handle airplane accidents. It's the FAA causing the issue, not the police.

If you're ever in a crash, tell me how it feels to sit there for 5.5 hours. Even without a major injury, you have adrenaline pumping, then dropping off, then shock sets in. I'm saying if nobody is hurt and there was not an intentional act, all of those questions could have been asked over the phone. I don't believe the FAA has the right to have you detained at the scene.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I've waited for hours at the emergency room. Wishing I was at a crash scene..

Not a joke
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There's nothing to say you have to stay at the hospital when you get there. It's only a way to leave the scene. You don't even have to go by ambulance. I can have someone drive me. After my accident, I called an attorney after four hours on the scene. He told me to tell them I'm going to the hospital. He said they know better than to refuse you at that point. He was right.
 
It was just a comment of some hospitals. I agree with your post 100% he should have left.

Also, I did leave one hospital with a severe bone infection in my foot from stepping on a nail. They tried to force me to stay......but after 3 hours of begging them for even an aspirin I was done.
Went to a neighboring hospital and got right in. Almost lost the foot to infection.

They too treat you like criminals if you are in pain, and like a number if you're conscious.

You handled it about as good as can be expected in the situation. Things tend to build a chain of events that lead to outcomes. (Even the accidents). ...and by that time we can only look back upon what happened. Usually because the sum of the events make it an easy decision, but each particular event seems less critical in its smaller time frame.

You sound like a great friend.
 
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Lowflynjack said:
To say you can't leave the scene or you'll be detained is treating someone like a criminal in my mind. I'm not blaming the police, and no, it had nothing to do with them being unsure of the protocol. They clearly told me they had called the FAA and the FAA told them not to let him leave the scene until they arrived. They told me this is standard protocol. In Texas, the State Troopers always handle airplane accidents. It's the FAA causing the issue, not the police.

If you're ever in a crash, tell me how it feels to sit there for 5.5 hours. Even without a major injury, you have adrenaline pumping, then dropping off, then shock sets in. I'm saying if nobody is hurt and there was not an intentional act, all of those questions could have been asked over the phone. I don't believe the FAA has the right to have you detained at the scene.
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I'm right with you. Barring suspicion of intoxication or criminal act, there comes a point when you've done your due diligence and it's time to leave, whether for medical treatment or to just get home to family. If they have your information, they can get ahold of you and ask questions to their heart's desire at a later time.
 
Lowflynjack said:
To say you can't leave the scene or you'll be detained is treating someone like a criminal in my mind. I'm not blaming the police, and no, it had nothing to do with them being unsure of the protocol. They clearly told me they had called the FAA and the FAA told them not to let him leave the scene until they arrived. They told me this is standard protocol. In Texas, the State Troopers always handle airplane accidents. It's the FAA causing the issue, not the police.

If you're ever in a crash, tell me how it feels to sit there for 5.5 hours. Even without a major injury, you have adrenaline pumping, then dropping off, then shock sets in. I'm saying if nobody is hurt and there was not an intentional act, all of those questions could have been asked over the phone. I don't believe the FAA has the right to have you detained at the scene.
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Easy, no need to get defensive. I wasn't advocating that sitting there for 5.5hrs was appropriate in any instance of a crash (aircraft or otherwise). I specifically mentioned that the FAA-personnel should have had all of the pertinent questions wrapped up in less than an hour. The troopers never told you he was being detained, and he wasn't under arrest, so they don't appear to have held him against his will, correct? The FAA doesn't likely have any authority that I'm aware of to detain anyone, so the troopers may have misunderstood the investigator's request as a command. I'd think if the FAA can't get to the scene within an hour, the appropriate contact info can be exchanged and everyone if free to leave at will.
 
Yeah, there is nothing that requires you to stay on scene until the FAA shows up. That was a LEO that was out of his league and didn't know what to do. The FAA may not even show up the same day depending on the severity, distance, workload, etc. The last crash I worked was a multi-fatality HMAS, and the FAA didn't show up until the next morning, and the NTSB until the next afternoon.
 
Your a good friend and did the right thing...My opinion is jaded right now on the FAA and investigations...so I wont comment...other than my great respect for anyone involved in ATC...
 
Seem to me this is a very different country than just a few decades ago. My grandfather told my father that there were less freedoms late in his life than there were in his youth. My father told me he has observed the same over his life. I too have noticed it over my life.

My wife crashed a snowmobile in Montana a few years back while on vacation. I was the only person to observe her accident. There were no other persons or property involved. She was on a trail riding within the speed limit; just an inexperienced rider. She was taken to an ICU for a few days, had surgery then endured a long painful trip back to Tennessee. A couple weeks after getting home she received a citation for reckless operation of a vehicle with a fine.
A few years ago she was driving on an interstate in Virginia. She said another driver swerved into her lane cutting her off causing her to go off the side and lose control in gravel resulting in her car getting stuck off the side of the interstate. As she waited for a tow truck, a Virginia state trooper came along and cited her for failing to maintain control of her vehicle or some such. Then, and here's the kicker, he drove off leaving her there alone on the side on I81 as she waited on the tow truck.
I used to look to authorities as helpful servants of the citizen. It seems these days issuing citations and fines are paramount. Heck, even my father who is retired CHP says that's what it has become.
 
I had a friend who put his Cessna in a corn field when the engine failed. One of the first things he told me is "GO TO THE HOSPITAL!!! Whether you feel like you need to or not, GO TO THE HOSPITAL!" For the exact same reason you describe.
 
Katamarino said:
After my gear-up landing (mechanical issue) the FAA were great. No officials turned up that day, we just stepped out, removed the airplane from the runway and had a beer. Two FAA guys phoned a couple of days later to find out what happened, it was quick and easy, and they told me it sounded like we did everything right and we wouldn't need to talk again. Our A&P tells me they visited to see the airplane, and the visit went much the same. Just another data point.
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Same thing here. After a nose gear collapse on landing, I waited at the FBO only until my ride came, then went home. No one from the FAA called me, ever. I found out about the conclusions of the investigation only from the FAA website, and that was about 6 months later.
 
Law enforcement can’t detain your friend if they require medical care. Flown plenty of people suspected of a crime and still no delay (unless scene is still dangerous) in patient care occurred. If necessary, law enforcement will get their evidence (blood sample) later at the hospital through a court order.

Not sure why they would want you to wait for the FAA anyway. Exit the aircraft, assess your medical situation, call 911, secure the aircraft, take pics, go home after authorities arrive. FAA can get ahold of you later.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Easy, no need to get defensive. I wasn't advocating that sitting there for 5.5hrs was appropriate in any instance of a crash (aircraft or otherwise). I specifically mentioned that the FAA-personnel should have had all of the pertinent questions wrapped up in less than an hour. The troopers never told you he was being detained, and he wasn't under arrest, so they don't appear to have held him against his will, correct? The FAA doesn't likely have any authority that I'm aware of to detain anyone, so the troopers may have misunderstood the investigator's request as a command. I'd think if the FAA can't get to the scene within an hour, the appropriate contact info can be exchanged and everyone if free to leave at will.
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My mistake, maybe I wasn't clear. I did say the officer didn't answer me when I asked if my friend was being detained. They did later tell me if I tried to leave with him, they would detain him. We were told very clearly that he could not leave until the FAA arrived. They said this was the direction given from the FAA and they said it was normal for the FAA in all of their dealings with them. Even though you say you'd think if the FAA couldn't get to the scene in an hour everyone would be free to go, this is not at all true. They don't follow what you and I think is common sense. When you threaten to detain someone if they attempt to leave, by definition you're already detaining them.

The whole reason I'm posting this is let people know this is happening. It can and will happen to you if you're involved in an accident.
 
Velocity173 said:
Law enforcement can’t detain your friend if they require medical care. Flown plenty of people suspected of a crime and still no delay (unless scene is still dangerous) in patient care occurred. If necessary, law enforcement will get their evidence (blood sample) later at the hospital through a court order.

Not sure why they would want you to wait for the FAA anyway. Exit the aircraft, assess your medical situation, call 911, secure the aircraft, take pics, go home after authorities arrive. FAA can get ahold of you later.
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He didn't want medical care.

They didn't want us to wait for the FAA, the FAA told them to hold him there until they arrived. They did the same thing with me and two other people replied to a Facebook post on the Austin Pilots group saying they were treated similarly. The average seems to be four hours.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Yeah, there is nothing that requires you to stay on scene until the FAA shows up. That was a LEO that was out of his league and didn't know what to do.
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Seems like there's a lot of confusion on what happened. Maybe it's the way I told the story. The LEOs were not out of their league and they weren't confused. The clear direction to them came from the FAA... hold him there until we arrive.

I think this is confusing to some and some of you can't even believe it happened. I'm going to reach out to the FAA Investigator, and ask him if this is standard process. I will ask him why he told the officers to keep my friend there. Let's see what his response is. So that everyone understands what I'm saying, I'm not even upset with this particular FAA employee. I was told by the State Troopers that this is the direction the FAA always gives them and I believe them. I also believe this is direction given to the FAA employees. In this case, his title is Aviation Safety Inspector. If he's following their standard protocol, I want to talk to them about changing this protocol. I don't think this should happen again.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What does the “leaving the scene of...” read like in most states?
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I would assume that would mean leaving before the police arrive, or leaving without giving identification. In other words, trying to get away with something.
 
I am a strong supporter of law enforcement, so please don't read anything negative regarding law enforcement into this comment.

Did the troopers do any kind of sobriety or drug tests? Take any samples? I'm just curious.

When a buddy of mine had a taxiing accident (that involved three other planes), the local law enforcement did a drug screen on him while they waited for the FAA to arrive. I think they also did a breathalizer. This was in Missouri. There he was, faced with a situation he has never encountered in his life, totally unaware of his rights. He was clean and knew it, but he didn't know if he had to do these tests, or if he could refuse, and if he refused if it would cost him in some way.
 
pburger said:
I am a strong supporter of law enforcement, so please don't read anything negative regarding law enforcement into this comment.

Did the troopers do any kind of sobriety or drug tests? Take any samples? I'm just curious.

When a buddy of mine had a taxiing accident (that involved three other planes), the local law enforcement did a drug screen on him while they waited for the FAA to arrive. I think they also did a breathalizer. This was in Missouri. There he was, faced with a situation he has never encountered in his life, totally unaware of his rights. He was clean and knew it, but he didn't know if he had to do these tests, or if he could refuse, and if he refused if it would cost him in some way.
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Are you saying he could have refused??
 
I'd be interested in hearing what you find out. I have never been involved in any incident or accident in which the FAA wanted the pilot detained or otherwise held up for their arrival. Most interviews werewere ei immediately over the phone, or at a later date. Then again, I've never lived near a FSDO office, they have always been hours away.
 
1RTK1 said:
Are you saying he could have refused??
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yes. Just like you can refuse on a traffic stop. but expect to go to the jail and have to get a lawyer to work things out. Traffic stops are weird things. You are not technically under arrest, but you are kind of not free to go, but the cop needs Probable Cause to detain you longer than reasonable period.

Back to the plane blocking the roadway. At some level it is your responsibility since you own the plane. Well the Insurance company at this point. At some level it is the first on the scene person's responsibility. In Texas the DPS would own the road closure. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.546.htm I think we all know what documents we have to produce for the Police or FAA. Always good to review.
 
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