first class medical/"substance abuse"

What's crazy is that there are a lot of pilots out there flying around with current medicals who drink alcohol to excess on a regular basis and think nothing of it.
 
Unregistered said:
Well I found this...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...am/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/substance/

This gives me the impression that for an applicant with a history of two cases of marijuana use a special issuance would not be difficult to obtain... (I certainly haven't been to a "rehabilitation clinic") Is that a valid interpretation or not?
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The two uses does not identify you as a chronic user nor a significant safety risk at the moment. However, the fact you used at all after you held a pilot certificate and knew the consequences for having done so calls your judgement into question. Now, you need to move the other direction and let your life show it.

If you haven't read up on "Aeronautical Decision Making" (ADM). It's all about using good judgement. And for the career pilot, the risks and consequences become only greater as responsibility becomes greater.

Hence, the importantance of establishing a healthy and positive track record for yourself before you may be allowed to move further up the line in pilot responsibilities. You've got some work ahead of ya in proving yourself worthy. I believe you can do it if you want the rewards badly enough.

Edit: There are several resources on the FAA Safety site on ADM. Take a look at a few. Everything there is free access.
 
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Unregistered said:
Well I found this...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...am/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/substance/

This gives me the impression that for an applicant with a history of two cases of marijuana use a special issuance would not be difficult to obtain... (I certainly haven't been to a "rehabilitation clinic") Is that a valid interpretation or not?
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Bruce can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think SI medicals have things written on them (like odd restrictions or short expiration dates) that folks who know this stuff can tell are unusual. Thus, you might get that SI, but when ERAU sees it, they'll ask why the SI, and then you have to tell them the full story. OTOH, if you wait two years, you can answer "no," and the issue never comes up.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What Missa said, Tim. :)


But I think you were mostly joking, so I'm not going to take your comment too terribly seriously. :)
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I was absolutely joking, hence the tongue-in-cheek comment. Unfortunately, in our suit-happy society, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody wouldn't think you had a DUTY to not sell your vehicle to someone who'd been a drug user.
 
Ron Levy said:
Bruce can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think SI medicals have things written on them (like odd restrictions or short expiration dates) that folks who know this stuff can tell are unusual. Thus, you might get that SI, but when ERAU sees it, they'll ask why the SI, and then you have to tell them the full story. OTOH, if you wait two years, you can answer "no," and the issue never comes up.
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That is correct Ron. I have an SI due to type I diabetes and it states it is only good within the borders of the US (or some such language) and is only valid for one year from issuance.
 
The standards for a Frist Class medical for drug & addictive disorders is a bit higher than for the third. You can get it, it will take some expense. A couple of sessions with a good university psychiatrist for starters- such will almost NEVER be covered by insurance. He'll require a panel of profile studies - they're basically baselines for any renewal work in the future, e.g, changes in the profiles.

FAA will look at it all. The Federal Psychiatrist in Washington DC will have a say. It takes a few months. Then you get issued, have to submit quarterly reports, and annually have to have the re-evaluation, even if you let the class of medical regress to third.

You will be able to say, I am in possession of a Frist Class medical. But the medical will bear both the exam date and the very short "Not valid for any class after XYZ" date, which will be one year. that endorsement will raise eyebrows at any aviation University- I know that at SIU it CERTAINLY will, because they ask what it means.

I concur with Tony Condon. Marty Mayes also did his training in the manner that Tony did. Its a better value all around and after 2 years you can safely check "no".

Better fess up to you family about why you need to go to the big state U and I'll bet you get a big bucket of support from them. They'll know you're starting to figure out how life works.
 
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Unregistered said:
Hey guys,

I am a senior in high school with a private license and a 3rd class medical (faa) with plans to attend Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in the fall and become an airline pilot.
However, I am somewhat worried about the repercussions of having occasionally used marijuana in high school, specifically with regard to obtaining my prerequisite first class medical. I've done a little research and looked over the medical form (FAA 8500-8a) where I see there's a little box for "illegal substance use in the last 2 years". Now what do I do... can I get away with telling the truth, or would it be necessary to lie about my (very) occasional cannibus usage and if so is there some way that lying could come back and bite me in the butt?
I don't get the impression that rooting out past drug use is really the point of these examinations, but I'm worried nonetheless... can someone with facts to back them up please provide me with a little constructive insight?

Thanks a lot!
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Clean up, shut up and don't go for a job interview where they drug test you for 3 months after smoking. There is no drug test on the medical.
 
Unregistered said:
Clean up, shut up and don't go for a job interview where they drug test you for 3 months after smoking. There is no drug test on the medical.
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Whoever this is, I'll give you five points for the "Clean up, shut up" portion. After that, you're a dangerous person. :rolleyes:
 
tonycondon said:
enough about the pot...

I personally cringe every time I hear someone make the financial decision to go to ERAU or other similar schools.
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Yeah, to want to spend that much money on school, you'd have to be on drugs or something. :rofl:

while you are there lay off the women and beer enough so that you have enough time to work as a CFI when not at class. If you can, work at an FBO that has a couple nice twins on the line
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How are ya supposed to lay off the women when you're working with a couple of nice twins??? :goofy:

Seriously though, excellent post Tony! :yes:
 
Unregistered said:
First off, thanks to all for such timely replies!

Well thank you Ron for your lecture about choosing my friends wisely and "foresight"... good advice, but frankly not particularly necessary. I am by no stretch of the imagination a chronic user, having smoked a grand total of twice over the last year or so, and of course do not plan to continue. I understand perfectly the parallels between respect for everyday laws and respect for the rules of the air and though this is obviously a very important concept and it may seem as though my experience with marijuana would serve to portray otherwise, I am not a rebel, I respect authority, and I don't really need to hear it again.

TMetzinger, your suggestion to wait a few years isn't really going to fly (no pun intended). And Ron's correct: The 1st Class is ERAU's requirement. But like you say, I am interested "to know what the likely outcome would be if he told the truth on the application, and it was truly 'experimentation' i.e. 'Tried marijuana on two occasions over the past 18 months, didn't like it, don't use it'." as that pretty much sums up my case exactly.

Also, and while it may seem counter productive to ask given the nature of your responses, if I were to say, "no, no drugs for me, ever"... what are they going to do, hair test me?
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Don't do drugs. Drugs are for idiots and pathetic losers who can't find other ways to entertain themselves. Ever listen to a pothead talk? Retarded.

Don't rationalize drugs. Any attempt to do so makes you an idiot and a worthless human being.

Don't come to a pilot forum and say "What are they gonna do..." and then say anything else, especially when talking about the FAA.

I'm done, just wanted to vent. I hate drugs, and I hate druggies. And I hate occasional users almost as much. ******n hippies.
 
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SkyHog said:
Don't do drugs. Drugs are for idiots and pathetic losers who can't find other ways to entertain themselves. Ever listen to a pothead talk? Retarded.

Don't rationalize drugs. Any attempt to do so makes you an idiot and a worthless human being.

Don't come to a pilot forum and say "What are they gonna do..." and then say anything else, especially when talking about the FAA.

I'm done, just wanted to vent. I hate drugs, and I hate druggies. And I hate occasional users almost as much. ******n hippies.
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Nicotine is a drug, smokers are drug addicts..... Caffine is a drug, Dr. Pepper is dope....
 
Henning said:
Nicotine is a drug, smokers are drug addicts..... Caffine is a drug, Dr. Pepper is dope....
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Right on man. Alcohol, caffine, nicotine, and THC are similar in potency, just different in effect and legality. The illegal one really interferes with productivity which is probably why it's illegal. It's amazing that alcohol is legal but it's mostly used in the evening so doesn't really affect productivity. Helps keep the workers happy. Get em going, keep em going, and make em forget why they hate doing what they do. The big 3 doing their thing.

MM
 
Ok, so here is another unregistered response...

First of all, I think you are being way too hard on the guy. In no way do I condone any kind of drug use for a pilot, not at all. However, I agree, that you are speaking as parents and not as concerned peers.

What kid hasn't had a lapse in judgement.. especially with something like that. Also, what kid would step up, fully admit to it, and ask his peers for advice.

He seems very concerned about lying on his medical, and how it could affect him. In my opinion this kind of attitude more than makes up for smoking pot twice in high school. Yes, judgment is very important in aviation, and I actually think he is exercising good judgement here showing genuine concern.

I would agree with the advice that he should simply wait out the two years. A little more growth never hurt anyone.

But really,... I am suprised at the attitudes!
 
It's the lapse in judgment when one knows the seriousness of consequences. They learned that when obtaining their ticket.

If the consequences of using drugs or alcohol as a pilot were applied to driving, there would be very few second offense DUIs and most certainly no third offenses. There would never be another legal opportunity to drive a vehicle and absolutely no chance to legally operate an aircraft in that person's remaining lifetime.

The attitudes of some here are indeed harsh, mine included. But, those pilots also know the seriousness of not adequately addressing the issue. The safety of all of us sharing the sky will be at risk.
 
SkyHog said:
I'll drink to that! While I smoke my cigarette and chase the beer with a Dr. Pepper.

Such a loser I am. :D
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Have you ever have a "Dr Pepper" at a bar? You take a shot glass, fill 3/4 with amaretto, top with 151 Bacardi, Light it, drop into a 1/2 filled pint of beer.


Yummmmm!! Better than an Irish car bomb.


PS Please remember to never order an Irish Car Bomb in an airport.
 
Eamon said:
Have you ever have a "Dr Pepper" at a bar? You take a shot glass, fill 3/4 with amaretto, top with 151 Bacardi, Light it, drop into a 1/2 filled pint of beer.


Yummmmm!! Better than an Irish car bomb.


PS Please remember to never order an Irish Car Bomb in an airport.
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Yes, yes I have. Flaming Dr. Pepper (as I've heard it called). So delicious.

But you know what ****es me off...Washington Apples. They do taste just like a washington apple, which is amazing......until you learn that they are made from Apple Pucker. Dammit. At least Flaming Dr. Pepper has no Dr. Pepper in it.

Irish Car Bombs rock.
 
Unfortunately, I can say I've been there, and done that. It hurts, especially when you have a full beard.
 
Unregistered said:
Ok, so here is another unregistered response...
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Come out, come out whoever you are...or don't.

First of all, I think you are being way too hard on the guy. In no way do I condone any kind of drug use for a pilot, not at all. However, I agree, that you are speaking as parents and not as concerned peers.
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Hard? What would you suggest, a soft touch? It's like this: do you or don't you? It's yes or no, black or white. Zero tolerance. I'm a pilot and he isn't my peer. My judgement is I don't want him in the system until he shapes up and has shown a solid track record of that change in behavior. Too much is at stake. Should I have to remind you that it is the lives of people included in the high stakes?

What kid hasn't had a lapse in judgement.. especially with something like that. Also, what kid would step up, fully admit to it, and ask his peers for advice.
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It's the epitomy of foolishness to say that because everyone does it it's okay for the one to do it. Such a fallacy assumes everyone does it. I KNOW everyone doesn't engage in such behavior, then or now. Perhaps you need different friends.

He seems very concerned about lying on his medical, and how it could affect him. In my opinion this kind of attitude more than makes up for smoking pot twice in high school. Yes, judgment is very important in aviation, and I actually think he is exercising good judgement here showing genuine concern.
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I agree with you here, mostly. I'll avoid generalities about "kids these days" but I am distressed that 1) he even considers lying as a viable option; 2) some folks are giving a soft pass on this.

Lying is never a good idea and I can pretty accurately surmise that this lie would come back to haunt him in whatever career, it's only a question of when. Perhaps later, after he has invested much of himself and his employer in his career. That he was still considering lying tells me he hadn't consulted much with those who know better.

To tell you the truth I would kick him to the curb if I found out I was sharing duties with such a personality. In fact, I would consider it my duty to do so. That would include reporting his attitude or drug usage to my superiors. Flight safety is to be preserved above all and without compromise.

I would agree with the advice that he should simply wait out the two years. A little more growth never hurt anyone.
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It's called maturity. Some folks need a whole bunch in a hurry. Or you can learn by experience, aka, the hardway. Just stay away from me until that attitude is vanquished.

But really,... I am suprised at the attitudes!
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It is more than too bad you are of the persuasion to give his attitude a pass. By doing so you ARE condoning his attitude. And that attitude is dangerous. That is fact not mere subjective opinion.

Now for my cheap parting shot: Why do you think they call it dope?
 
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We are not as far apart on this as you may think. However, I do think at least some of this is subjective. I'm a no-tolerance guy myself, and if he says it was in his past, and he wants to do right, I believe him.

I want to point out some HUGE hypocrisy in this thread though..

I honestly can't believe that within the same thread, some guys yell about using pot twice in the past, and in the next breath "brag" about drinking and compare notes on drinks. Come on, there is a time and a place, and it certainly isn't in the thread discussing substance abuse and flying.

I'm more offended by that than I am about the original question here. I'm sure no one here would ever mix drinking and flying in any way.. and I also believe doing so is EVERY BIT as serious as mixing marijuana and aviation... perhaps more because drinking is somehow ok in the pilot community.
 
Unregistered said:
because drinking is somehow ok in the pilot community.
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Drinking is certainly okay with a number of pilots, as evidenced by the number of threads we've had talking about beers, scotch, etc. However I don't know of ANY pilot who says it's okay to mix drinking and flying!:no::hairraise:
I'm sure they're out there, and the NTSB reports seem to support that, but not in any great number, and I believe that they're ostracized by their fellow pilots. In my experience, pilots either abstain (according to some of the posts I've read on the board) or drink freely as long as they're not planning to go fly (or drive). I'm saying this because someone jumping in might infer (incorrectly) from your statement that the pilot community is okay with drinking and flying. In my (limited) experience, this just isn't so. And yes, I realize that you didn't say it; it's just that some may infer it.
 
Unregistered said:
Well thank you Ron for your lecture about choosing my friends wisely and "foresight"... good advice, but frankly not particularly necessary. I am by no stretch of the imagination a chronic user, having smoked a grand total of twice over the last year or so, and of course do not plan to continue. I understand perfectly the parallels between respect for everyday laws and respect for the rules of the air and though this is obviously a very important concept and it may seem as though my experience with marijuana would serve to portray otherwise, I am not a rebel, I respect authority, and I don't really need to hear it again.

TMetzinger, your suggestion to wait a few years isn't really going to fly (no pun intended). And Ron's correct: The 1st Class is ERAU's requirement. But like you say, I am interested "to know what the likely outcome would be if he told the truth on the application, and it was truly 'experimentation' i.e. 'Tried marijuana on two occasions over the past 18 months, didn't like it, don't use it'." as that pretty much sums up my case exactly.

Also, and while it may seem counter productive to ask given the nature of your responses, if I were to say, "no, no drugs for me, ever"... what are they going to do, hair test me?
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Unregistered said:
Hmm I guess some people would rather try to be my parents and discuss peer pressure and "decisions" instead of offer constructive advice. Again, I've heard it all... and that's why I don't engage in "risky behaviors" with the exception of the two times in my life that I have used marijuana, and why I don't plan to in the future.

Yes bbchien, I have already perused 8500-8, and could pass it easily with the exception of the issue at hand. However, as has been stated, it is my university's policy that all incoming professional flight students have a first class medical.

Oh and BTW Ron this was not an issue for my Third Class.
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Unregistered said:
Ok, so here is another unregistered response...

First of all, I think you are being way too hard on the guy. In no way do I condone any kind of drug use for a pilot, not at all. However, I agree, that you are speaking as parents and not as concerned peers.

What kid hasn't had a lapse in judgement.. especially with something like that. Also, what kid would step up, fully admit to it, and ask his peers for advice.

He seems very concerned about lying on his medical, and how it could affect him. In my opinion this kind of attitude more than makes up for smoking pot twice in high school. Yes, judgment is very important in aviation, and I actually think he is exercising good judgement here showing genuine concern.

I would agree with the advice that he should simply wait out the two years. A little more growth never hurt anyone.

But really,... I am suprised at the attitudes!
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You are surprised at our attitudes?

Based upon his direct quotes above, this guy:
(a) already has a Third Class medical,
(b) admits to using pot twice in the past year, presumably after getting his Third Class,
(c) he doesn't need Ron's sage advice about chosing his friends wisely,
(d) he doesn't need to hear it again,
(e) suggests that lying to the FAA might be possible because "what are they going to do, hair test me?",
(e) is unappreciative of the advice he's received because "I guess some people would rather be my parents and discuss peer pressure and 'decisions' instead of offer constructive advice", and finally
(f) "... again, I've heard it all."

So this guy wants to game the system so he can share the skies with the rest of us, with an anti-authority attitude, and is unwilling to take advice because it might be harsh?

You seem to be writing his "experimentation" and attitude off to his youth. Well, in my opinion that type of justification is bad enough for teenagers who want to drive cars. It's unacceptable for teenagers who want the awesome responsibility of being PIC of an aircraft in a three dimensional environment.
 
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Let me clarify, I didn't mean to say that pilots are ok with drinking and flying.. I know that no one here is ok with that.

What I meant is that I think it is totally inappropriate to be discussing our favorite drinks on a thread about "substance abuse" on an aviation forum, especially knowing how serious it is (just as serious as any other drug in my opinion) when it comes to flying.

Seems like those that condemn someone who inhaled at some point while holding a medical certificate are some of the people that had plenty to drink at some point while holding a medical certificate are big hypocrites. Yes, I'm sure they waited plenty long to make sure that the drinking didn't interfere with the flying,.. but the results of mixing either with flying are bad, bad news.

For the record, (even though I am unregistered) I do not in any way condone smoking pot, I don't like it, but I think it is dangerous and arrogant to pretend that it is any worse than drinking as it applies here.

Oh,. there is a punishment for us unregistered people... we have to suffer through the most difficult to read verification images ever on each post... ha.
 
I have to say, reading this entire thread has surprised me. As someone who has been exposed to the professional side of the aviation industry for 15+ years, I will also tell you that the attitudes of professionals vs. hobbyist pilots can differ significantly. I'm not sure what everyone here does, but that could factor into responses.

I do not advocate illegal drug use nor do I want to be around it. But it seems like everyone is getting their panties all in knots over a valid question being asked. How many of us here would give up our dreams of flying for a couple of transgressions in our past?

Most professionals I know are, quite frankly, past (or present!) alcohol abusers. I'm not saying that's a great thing, but it's a true statement, like it or not. I will also tell you that there is PLENTY of partying happening on overnights. Not everyone, but a significant number of them, especially at the Regional level. I think the unregistered user here is doing the right thing by researching and trying to gather all of the facts. Who is going to get on a public aviation forum, ID themselves and admit they used illegal drugs? Let's be realistic here.

What to do? Well, that is your decision. "Doing the right thing" is great life advice, but not necessarily always the best career advice, unfortunately. It would be asinine to tank your career by admitting illegal drug use on an application. It would be equally asinine to continue using illegal drugs while pursuing a career in aviation. Delaying the process of getting a degree and moving forward with flight training can cost you BIG TIME when you factor in the amount of money it costs you in annual salary and retirement bennies (if you're still lucky enough to have them) - factor in the time value of money and you start to see that time IS money.

I agree with many of the other posts regarding ERAU. It's overrated! The instruction is nothing stellar. The best thing about ERAU is its library. You can get a 4 year degree MUCH cheaper and have the same quality of education and flight training OR BETTER. Nobody in the industry will care where your degree is from, or what subject it is even in. It's just a "check the box" item.

I would advise a degree in something that will support you outside of aviation eventually, in case you decide on a career change, which can be difficult if not impossible to facilitate after 3-8 years at regional airline pay. Don't close the door to other possibilities later on!

Personally, I would go to a cheap state U. with a decent program and work on my flight training with a private instructor. You may find better instruction opportunities in this environment too, once you have completed your CFI. No need for a Class I medical at this point. Obviously stay away from illegal drugs or people who use them and go forward.

Best of luck!
 
I agree with your analysis, Princess, except for the part about a delay costing a lot down the road. Two years is nothing, especially with the mandatory retirement age just raised by five years.

Everything else is right on - stop using, go to a more general school, get the instruction on the side, and get on with with the program.
 
Unregistered said:
Let me clarify, I didn't mean to say that pilots are ok with drinking and flying.. I know that no one here is ok with that.

What I meant is that I think it is totally inappropriate to be discussing our favorite drinks on a thread about "substance abuse" on an aviation forum, especially knowing how serious it is (just as serious as any other drug in my opinion) when it comes to flying.

Seems like those that condemn someone who inhaled at some point while holding a medical certificate are some of the people that had plenty to drink at some point while holding a medical certificate are big hypocrites. Yes, I'm sure they waited plenty long to make sure that the drinking didn't interfere with the flying,.. but the results of mixing either with flying are bad, bad news.

For the record, (even though I am unregistered) I do not in any way condone smoking pot, I don't like it, but I think it is dangerous and arrogant to pretend that it is any worse than drinking as it applies here.

Oh,. there is a punishment for us unregistered people... we have to suffer through the most difficult to read verification images ever on each post... ha.
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Man, I love Coors Light. Its delicious. And legal to imbibe. Holy hell, that might be the best part of it!
 
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