Thinking about buying a plane

[TCABM]

BLUF: unwashed masses at commercial airports suck. So do full airliners. Time for a plane.

We took a trip this past week up to Nate's neck of the woods to experience our first vacation since retiring from the military and without kids (they're both on their own now).

Flew SWA out of SAT to DEN via PHX and then back non-stop. This was my first airline flight since mid-2016. Spent the In between time in and around Steamboat Springs hiking Routt NF and Rocky Mountain NP. Very relaxing and enjoyable.

The entire airline experience in between was the opposite. Arrived early with mobile boarding passes and needed to check bags. Overcrowded terminal with a ton of self-absorbed travelers looking for any way possible to get from C group boarding to pre-boarding group.

Standard airline seating issues for a full flight. Luckily, we got the 2-seat overwing aisle, allowing us some relief. Did that on every leg of this trip. Arrival is the standard rush of self-loading baggage trying to offload in a race of who can be first to stand and wait in the aisle and deplane into the hellhole that is today's terminal.

Spent the entire time airborne on each and every leg thinking it's time to buy a plane because I'm never flying 121 again.

Now, unlike Ted, it'll be a bit before I buy, but it's a done deal.

 

[Morgan3820]

State your budget and mission.

 

[Velocity173]

Need budget and ratings.

 

[TCABM]

State your budget and mission.

M20J/K/Rocket/Bravo, Bonanza, C310 territory.

Worst case: 2 - 4 pax from TX to WA in a day with max of two fuel stops.

 

[TCABM]

Need budget and ratings.

The only upgrade needed would be for AMEL.

 

[eman1200]

YES!

 

[Velocity173]

The only upgrade needed would be for AMEL.

No need for an upgrade. A Velocity XL RG will suit your needs perfectly...my work here is done.

 

[James331]

M20J/K/Rocket/Bravo, Bonanza, C310 territory.

Worst case: 2 - 4 pax from TX to WA in a day with max of two fuel stops.

Lanceair

 

[MooneyDriver78]

M20J/K/Rocket/Bravo, Bonanza, C310 territory.

Worst case: 2 - 4 pax from TX to WA in a day with max of two fuel stops.

You need a turbo for that trip, rules out the J. K it’s a 9 hour trip, Bravo,Bonanza 8-9, C310 8, Rocket 7. Mooney useful load will limit your fuel with 4 adults. All require just 1 stop.

 

[steingar]

Few GA airplanes have the dispatch ability of an airliner. Last time I checked my expenses I could have bought multiple jet tickets, first class. If you want to travel, stick to the airlines. If you want to fly, buy an airplane. Mooney fanboy here, you won’t do better.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Few GA airplanes have the dispatch ability of an airliner. Last time I checked my expenses I could have bought multiple jet tickets, first class. If you want to travel, stick to the airlines. If you want to fly, buy an airplane. Mooney fanboy here, you won’t do better.

You can do both, just have to be flexible, I’ve gone coast to coast in my Mooney but I would not want to leave on a schedule. If you regularly carried 3 or 4, costs become more competitive. The question is, do you consider traveling in your plane first class or coach?

 

[denverpilot]

Flew SWA out of SAT to DEN via PHX and then back non-stop. This was my first airline flight since mid-2016. Spent the In between time in and around Steamboat Springs hiking Routt NF and Rocky Mountain NP. Very relaxing and enjoyable.

...

Now, unlike Ted, it'll be a bit before I buy, but it's a done deal.

DEN plus SWA or Frontier is the quintessential motivation for anyone to own an aircraft — to avoid that place like it was the gates of Hell itself and the aircraft experience just beyond. LOL.

Just be thankful you did SWA and didn’t have to sit on one of those seats Frontier put in their aircraft. Lovely metal torture devices with a 1/4” lawn furniture pad tossed on top of them as an afterthought.

Steamboat is wonderful. RMMP is too crowded anymore for my taste.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Now's the part where we get to spend all your money buying you too much airplane... My favorite!

M20J/K/Rocket/Bravo, Bonanza, C310 territory.

Worst case: 2 - 4 pax from TX to WA in a day with max of two fuel stops.

4 pax? Or 4 people total?

In either case, TX to WA with two fuel stops might be a bit of a stretch in the Mooneys with 4 on board, depending on where in TX and where in WA. If all four were FAA-standard individuals, my plane would carry about 4.3 hours of fuel. Leaving an hour reserve and doing 3.3 hour legs, it depends where in TX you leave from. Brownsville to Bellingham is 1806nm, a total of about 11 hours. OTOH, Dalhart to Pullman is only 917nm and could easily be done with only one stop.

If the pax are "full size", though, you'll probably want the 310.

 

[TCABM]

Few GA airplanes have the dispatch ability of an airliner. Last time I checked my expenses I could have bought multiple jet tickets, first class.

I hear what you’re saying, but that’s not enough motivation for me to voluntarily go thru that experience ever again. If my job requires me to travel by airline, that’s their choice and I’ll do it.

The question is, do you consider traveling in your plane first class or coach?

99% of the time it’s me + wife only.

Interesting question on ‘class, that I haven’t considered. The experience of not dealing with TSA (and I’m a pre-check traveler), not dealing with crowds everywhere, and waiting around on the airline timetable results in GA being an overall better experience.

FrEX: today’s trip done in a M20J would have been 5.0 including a fuel stop burning 65 gallons. Total time for SWA from DEN check in to my front door was 6.0.

I’ve got enough experience to know the difference between GA and airline comfort

DEN plus SWA or Frontier is the quintessential motivation for anyone to own an aircraft — to avoid that place like it was the gates of Hell itself and the aircraft experience just beyond. LOL.

Just be thankful you did SWA and didn’t have to sit on one of those seats Frontier put in their aircraft. Lovely metal torture devices with a 1/4” lawn furniture pad tossed on top of them as an afterthought.

Steamboat is wonderful. RMMP is too crowded anymore for my taste.

RMNP on the west side was empty yesterday. It was 45* and light rain on Trail Ridge Rd at Medicine Bow Curve.

Took this pic a few miles inside the West portal.

One of my more favorite pics from this trip taken at Adams Falls.

 

[TCABM]

Now's the part where we get to spend all your money buying you too much airplane... My favorite!



4 pax? Or 4 people total?

...depending on where in TX and where in WA.

If the pax are "full size", though, you'll probably want the 310.

Should have stated me +1 pax 99% of the time to be most accurate. Very rarely would it be me + 3 pax for a total of 4.

I’d love an Aerostar, but that’s probably too much plane.

My worst case trip is San Antonio to Tacoma. My son is a Ranger qualified Infantry officer trying out for SF. His stateside locations are pretty limited.

If he goes overseas, I’ll have to suck it up for the overseas leg and save for business/first class.

As for FAA sizes, I’m over by the same amount my wife is under, so we avg out to 2 FAA sized folks. Our daughter is well under (she’s a teacher) and her current boyfriend will never be invited for the ride. Our son is FAA standard and his wife is well under.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You need a turbo for that trip, rules out the J. K it’s a 9 hour trip, Bravo,Bonanza 8-9, C310 8, Rocket 7. Mooney useful load will limit your fuel with 4 adults. All require just 1 stop.

You don't "need" a turbo for any trip. Again, this will depend on where in TX and where in WA, but if it's, say, KELP to KBFI, that's pretty easily doable at 14,000. Might take the J a while to get there, but my Ovation would get to 14,000 in about 15-18 minutes from sea level. From KADS to KBFI, it requires a bit more planning, but the direct flight is 1466nm whereas flying south of the biggest rocks (KADS ACH V62 PEDRA RSK JNC V484 TCH KBFI) is 81nm more and flying north of the biggest rocks (KADS CYS V138 RIW V330 IDA V21 DBS V520 MQG KBFI) is just 41nm extra.

Regardless of the route, though, everyone's going to be sucking oxygen unless you go WAY out of the way to stay below the O2 altitudes. Best make sure the theoretical pax are going to be OK with that.

You are correct that with 4 SOB, fuel will be limited - And that will require an extra stop (2 total) for some city pairs in TX/WA. With 2 SOB, a single stop is possible.

Few GA airplanes have the dispatch ability of an airliner. Last time I checked my expenses I could have bought multiple jet tickets, first class. If you want to travel, stick to the airlines. If you want to fly, buy an airplane. Mooney fanboy here, you won’t do better.

An IFR rating, a well-equipped airplane, and a capable and proficient pilot can do damn near as well as an airliner, maybe even better. If there's a thunderstorm in New York today, it may affect my Milwaukee to Kansas City airline flight, after all!

The number of times I've *needed* to be somewhere and had to cancel my flight entirely and take the airlines instead is... ZERO. It's amazing what proper prior planning and some flexibility with time and route can do for you. My last three airline flights were 2010 (one way back after flying the Hawker), 2012 (one way to go pick up the Mooney), and 2013 (one way to go pick up the R182).

In the meantime, I've picked up my second thousand hours, adding lots of excellent experiences along the way.

Now, I have canceled flights for weather, but they were flights that I was taking for fun and didn't need to be where I was going bad enough to make me want to do what it would have taken to get there. When a flight is supposed to be fun and starts to sound not fun, it gets canceled.

While it does take a fair amount of money and commitment to doing so, it is quite possible to use GA for travel, and it beats the hell out of all of the alternatives.

 

[TCABM]

Lanceair

I’m open to E/AB. My boss’ boss’ boss has an Evolution. I’m not in that price range, but if I ever take his job, I’ll be looking at that.

 

[denverpilot]

FrEX: today’s trip done in a M20J would have been 5.0 including a fuel stop burning 65 gallons. Total time for SWA from DEN check in to my front door was 6.0.

...

RMNP on the west side was empty yesterday. It was 45* and light rain on Trail Ridge Rd at Medicine Bow Curve.

Took this pic a few miles inside the West portal.

Nice. We have lots of family in Estes Park. The Elk wander the town all the time.

I made a funny mistake recently. My wife drove to Pocatello Idaho. She usually goes on these trips with a total of four people (barbershop quartet) and we don’t own a six place aircraft, so I didn’t even think about that I could have flown the two of them there and back in half the time (and double the cost, but I don’t care).

I texted her about three hours into the drive... “You realize we own an airplane, right?” LOL.

 

[asicer]

Few GA airplanes have the dispatch ability of an airliner. Last time I checked my expenses I could have bought multiple jet tickets, first class. If you want to travel, stick to the airlines. If you want to fly, buy an airplane. Mooney fanboy here, you won’t do better.

Nowhere does it say that owning an airplane means you can't buy an airline ticket and vice versa. Sometimes it's nice having the option to choose between the two.

And as for cost differential (both time and money), that very much depends on your origin, destination and number of seats being filled.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Should have stated me +1 pax 99% of the time to be most accurate. Very rarely would it be me + 3 pax for a total of 4.

My worst case trip is San Antonio to Tacoma. My son is a Ranger qualified Infantry officer trying out for SF. His stateside locations are pretty limited.

OK, great. KSAT CABZO V187 JNC V484 TCH KTIW can be done at 14,000 and is 1579nm. Probably 10 hours by M20J, 9.3 by M20R. If you get the turbo (M20K, M20M) and go higher, you may get there faster or you may not, depending on the winds up high.

I have wanted a turbo on occasion, but it boils down to a simple math problem. In the Ovation, I cover 2+ miles over the ground for every 1000 feet I climb, and 6 miles for every 1000 feet I descend. For speed and efficiency, you want at least half the flight to be in cruise, so you're talking a minimum of 16 miles (in reality, it's more like 20) per 1000 feet of climb.

Below about 10,000, the normally aspirated Ovation is actually faster than the turbocharged Bravo - It has 10 more horsepower, doesn't use any of that power to turn a blower, and has a tighter cowl (less drag). So, on a sub-200nm leg, I'll get there as fast or faster than the Bravo.

For the turbo to really make sense, you need to be flying 300+nm legs on a regular basis, and getting up into the upper teens and low flight levels (180-250). In my case, for every long leg I fly, I probably fly 5-10 shorter legs to closer destinations, just flying around for fun, $100 burgers, giving people rides, etc.

 

[TCABM]

For everyone’s SA, one of my 10 year goals is to pick up my CFI/II and transition from my corporate life to specialize in advanced instruction/type-specific transition.

In addition to ~450 hrs GA experience, for about 1/3rd of my AF career, I was an E-3 mission crew instructor/evaluator with about 2600hrs total, 700+ instructing, 250+ evaluating on the jet.

While today’s experience was the straw that broke the camel’s back, this isn’t a rash decision. Ideally, the aircraft we buy will be the best compromise for our current mission and my long term goal.

As a native Texan, my heart leans toward Mooney, but there is an argument to go plastic. Not sure I could live with a Cirrus though.

 

[Ted]

Any of the planes you are talking about will do the mission, but keep in mind that TX to WA in one day is a long trip in a piston bird. And this is me talking here, long trips are what I do. Factor in headwinds and it won't be a reliable trip in a lot of cases. I know that for Cloud Nine, the Houston -> WA trips that came up from time to time were things that I consistently wasn't comfortable trying to reliably do in a day. Keep in mind, though, we have a schedule to adhere to, not sure if your schedule allows you more flexibility +/- a day here or there.

I would personally avoid turbos unless you think you will regularly be going west of Denver. Turbos in pistons add a lot to overall MX, reduce reliability, just all around hard on the plane. The 310 was basically trouble-free. The 414 was the opposite. The turbos just put a lot of extra stress on everything. I ran both and the naturally aspirated engines are more reliable without a doubt. Heat is bad.

My thought for you would be a naturally aspirated 310 with 520s or 550s, be it a short nose with a Colemill upgrade (my personal pick) or an R model. Either one will do 2-4 people very comfortably. We loved the N model w/520s we had and it would true out at 190+ KTAS at lower altitudes at 27 GPH LOP. Keep in mind I did a LOT of optimization to get it to that point, so don't expect that from one out of the box.

On trips that long, the extra few knots do add up that you'll see vs. a Mooney or a Bonanza.

Now go hurry up and buy one tomorrow while you still think it's a good idea, like I would do.

 

[TCABM]

OK, great... Ovation ... In my case, for every long leg I fly, I probably fly 5-10 shorter legs to closer destinations, just flying around for fun, $100 burgers, giving people rides, etc.

/Drools heavily/

An O is the dream. The Ultra is the cherry on top.

 

[TCABM]

...
I would personally avoid turbos unless you think you will regularly be going west of Denver.

My thought for you would be a naturally aspirated 310 with 520s or 550s, be it a short nose with a Colemill upgrade (my personal pick) or an R model...

Now go hurry up and buy one tomorrow while you still think it's a good idea, like I would do.

As always Ted, great and thoughtful input. I know very little about the 310s, but keeping in mind my long term goal, that may make the most sense.

Thinking this through, I need to align a business plan with personal goal/mission and drive to that spot as efficiently as possible.

 

[GRG55]

State your budget and mission.

Avoiding the airlines.
Priceless.

 

[GRG55]

DEN plus SWA or Frontier is the quintessential motivation for anyone to own an aircraft — to avoid that place like it was the gates of Hell itself and the aircraft experience just beyond. LOL.
...

Try DEN and United. Makes you wish and pray for SWA.

 

[Timbeck2]

You can do both, just have to be flexible, I’ve gone coast to coast in my Mooney but I would not want to leave on a schedule. If you regularly carried 3 or 4, costs become more competitive. The question is, do you consider traveling in your plane first class or coach?

Even in coach you can stand up and go to the bathroom. I don't think its the airlines we don't like, its the people one has to deal with in order to fly on one. I don't like crowds which is why I'm not all that interested in Oshkosh.

Yeah...I went there.

 

[Rushie]

As always Ted, great and thoughtful input. I know very little about the 310s, but keeping in mind my long term goal, that may make the most sense.

Thinking this through, I need to align a business plan with personal goal/mission and drive to that spot as efficiently as possible.

I can relate to your day. I had not flown commercial in years got so spoiled with our planes. When I finally had to fly commercial I nearly lost it, how do you people DO this all the time?!?!? Ugh.

I've gotten kind of used to it now, have to fly several times a year, I fly out of SAT too.

 

[hindsight2020]

My buddy used to do San Antonio to Oregon/Washington....in a T310. The engines were the scariest mx proposition for him and got rid of It before the last annual, as he felt it was gonna be a jug job x2 on the next one. He had a c185 that I believe he did the trip in once, but by then the t310 speeds and comfort had spoiled him.

If I were you I wouldnt base my acft selection on the least frequent trip; you'll carry legacy mx costs all year around for unused capability on your 80 pct mission. Now, if you can comfortably afford the idle capability all year round, by all means go for the fastest and highest useful load ship you can buy.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

/Drools heavily/

An O is the dream. The Ultra is the cherry on top.

I'm actually not all that into the Ultra. Adding another door is just a marketing thing against Cirrus. I find it way easier to get into the left seat than the right seat on my plane, so if I had two doors, I'd still be using the one on the right! I guess they're showing people some kind of trick for getting in the near door now, but it wasn't on my high-priority list to try at Oshkosh.

Now, TKS and a G1000, I would certainly like! But the TKS is a $60K+ add-on that eats into already limited useful load and would be useful only a few times a year, and it gets you pennies at best on resale, plus some maintenance headaches.

The Ovation is one heckuva nice airplane though. The overall cost per mile is really low - Even with all the fixed costs in, I think we might be at under $1/nm which is nearly impossible with any other plane that's as fast... I just need to watch how much we put in it (people, fuel, and "stuff"), and forego some really short runways.

 

[denverpilot]

Try DEN and United. Makes you wish and pray for SWA.

I was trying to be nice. Hahahaha. Yeah, DEN is a mess. I haven’t flown United out of DEN since I was traveling for business.

Typically a ticket on them is four times the price of the budget carriers. Have multiple friends who fly for them, have no idea how they get people to pay those prices. I’d pay double maybe but not 400%.

And typically I’m headed for a vacation destination and the low-cost carriers have direct flights. I damn sure don’t want to connect in Houston or Chicago to go to Florida from here.

(Well I do get how they do it against Frontier with the new torture devices known as “seats” in the bottom dollar EMB jets, but not back in the pre-Republic days when Frontier had shiny new Airbusses and TVs and amenities. Of course that went bankrupt so... But an SWA 737 is the same ride as a United 737...)

Quite a bit of the annoyance in going through there is that stupid train ride to get around the place. Another member here has a lovely story of renting a car there last week, or the week before, but I won’t call him out or make him tell the story. Ha.

Nothing like being bussed a couple of miles away from the terminal to a rental car place that has all of their computers down and realizing it’s 40 minutes round trip to hop a bus and go to their competitor.

I actually do shop UA since they’re slightly more “hometown” than F9 now that they’re really just Republic, and damn sure more “local” than SWA. Even have their flight training base here at TK. But...

Can’t ever find tickets that are direct and less than four times the price of anyone else. Even AA through Dallas or Delta thru Atlanta is usually cheaper than UA going anywhere out of DEN. It’s amazing really. And I’m not choosing ANY of those if there’s a direct flight on ANY other airplane.

I can handle a lot of pure hell of being in a human traveling tube for three hours to either coast, but stopping in ORD, ATL, DAL, or IAH? Efffffff that. No. I’ll even do the trip in an RJ before I’ll go slumming through other hubs.

If I can make a two day trip out of it, I’m in the 182. I truly would rather be beat around in turbulence and bad weather for eight or more hours than go through anybody’s hubs.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Well you haven't said anything about a budget, so. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25534039/2009-epic-lt

 

[ktup-flyer]

Try DEN and United. Makes you wish and pray for SWA.

BTDT. HNL-DEN redeye flight on a 10 abreast 777 in econ. Never. again.

 

[BrianNC]

Our daughter is well under (she’s a teacher) and her current boyfriend will never be invited for the ride.

Everybody missed the most interesting part of this thread. Care to elaborate?

 

[mtuomi]

(Well I do get how they do it against Frontier with the new torture devices known as “seats” in the bottom dollar EMB jets, but not back in the pre-Republic days when Frontier had shiny new Airbusses and TVs and amenities. Of course that went bankrupt so... But an SWA 737 is the same ride as a United 737...)


I actually do shop UA since they’re slightly more “hometown” than F9 now that they’re really just Republic, and damn sure more “local” than SWA. Even have their flight training base here at TK. But...

You're off by 3-5 years btw. Frontier has no EMB jets. Republic has nothing to do with Frontier today. Republic is a much better ride than Frontier in their "shiny new Airbusses". Republic sold Frontier years and years ago.

 

[denverpilot]

You're off by 3-5 years btw. Frontier has no EMB jets. Republic has nothing to do with Frontier today. Republic is a much better ride than Frontier in their "shiny new Airbusses". Republic sold Frontier years and years ago.

Ah okay. Well whoever owns the Frontier brand now, I stopped caring after the first bankruptcy and sell off. Up until then they were decent to fly on, and a hometown company again, but the second coming died faster than the first one.

We flew them once a couple of years ago, and I will never do that ever again. It took me three days to get over what those seats did to my back.

I know one of their pilots very well. Good friend. I feel bad for him. But he jokes that the seats in the cockpit are still comfortable.

He’s the guy who told me AFTER I booked that ticket that their new seats were designed by someone into medieval torture. I didn’t even come up with that one, it was an employee who said it, privately.

He knows the product is bad, but seniority being what it is in Aviation, he isn’t going anywhere. One of the significant downsides of Aviation jobs... if you know you’re product is poor and would like to move to a better company, there’s little to no reasonable way to do that... certainly not without starting over salary-wise.

In other industries, the better company will come looking for the best and brightest and offer them better jobs at higher pay to get them to jump.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Even in coach you can stand up and go to the bathroom. I don't think its the airlines we don't like, its the people one has to deal with in order to fly on one. I don't like crowds which is why I'm all that interested in Oshkosh.

Yeah...I went there.

I think you meant “NOT all that interested...”?

 

[Rushie]

Everybody missed the most interesting part of this thread. Care to elaborate?

I think the word "current" told us what we needed to know. But I was curious about the details too.

 

[Rushie]

Ah okay. Well whoever owns the Frontier brand now, I stopped caring after the first bankruptcy and sell off. Up until then they were decent to fly on, and a hometown company again, but the second coming died faster than the first one.

We flew them once a couple of years ago, and I will never do that ever again. It took me three days to get over what those seats did to my back.

I know one of their pilots very well. Good friend. I feel bad for him. But he jokes that the seats in the cockpit are still comfortable.

He’s the guy who told me AFTER I booked that ticket that their new seats were designed by someone into medieval torture. I didn’t even come up with that one, it was an employee who said it, privately.

He knows the product is bad, but seniority being what it is in Aviation, he isn’t going anywhere. One of the significant downsides of Aviation jobs... if you know you’re product is poor and would like to move to a better company, there’s little to no reasonable way to do that... certainly not without starting over salary-wise.

In other industries, the better company will come looking for the best and brightest and offer them better jobs at higher pay to get them to jump.

Well one thing I will say for Frontier, they added a SAT to RDU direct flight. I was getting very sick of changing planes in CLT. And even with buying all the amenities it was cheaper than AA. I didn't detect a problem with the seat, maybe the seats up front are better?

 

[denverpilot]

Well one thing I will say for Frontier, they added a SAT to RDU direct flight. I was getting very sick of changing planes in CLT. And even with buying all the amenities it was cheaper than AA. I didn't detect a problem with the seat, maybe the seats up front are better?

Did you get one of the metal seats with the 1/4” foam cushions strapped on like a lawn chair? Literally just a metal frame and a lawn chair cushion, I’m not exaggerating. If not, they must be flying some different equipment on that route. Pray they do not ever have to refurbish the seats in whatever aircraft it is.