Gusty landing tips..?

What are the visual cues for airspeed when flying VFR? I am assuming you mean something other than other instruments.

Relate the wing and deck angle to the terrain...it's not all that difficult. Go out and try it. Pilots obsess too much about the airspeed indicator. You can fly perfectly well without one. Getting along without an altimeter is a little tougher but not impossible.

Secret sauce: If you can see your desired landing spot just above the cowling your deck angle is about right...if you do not make any pitch corrections you will crash on that spot. Fortunately, crashing is avoided by the flare.

Bob
 
Relate the wing and deck angle to the terrain...it's not all that difficult.
C'mon. You know the wing doesn't care about the terrain. I'm not against using other cues or arguing for reliance upon the airspeed indicator, but wing to horizon isn't the best counsel for a new pilot.
 
C'mon. You know the wing doesn't care about the terrain. I'm not against using other cues or arguing for reliance upon the airspeed indicator, but wing to horizon isn't the best counsel for a new pilot.
Poor choice of words...I meant horizon, not terrain...but all students should be taught to control the airplane by visual cues, not by instrument reference. I can't find my copy of Stick and Rudder, but I'll bet that Wolfgang had something to say on the subject.

Bob
 
Poor choice of words...I meant horizon, not terrain...but all students should be taught to control the airplane by visual cues, not by instrument reference. I can't find my copy of Stick and Rudder, but I'll bet that Wolfgang had something to say on the subject.

Bob
The problem is that wing angle doesn't account for vertical speed so it is not giving the complete picture. A speed near stall and on-speed can look very similar with that as the reference. The reference point will change at different points in the pattern.
 
C'mon. You know the wing doesn't care about the terrain. I'm not against using other cues or arguing for reliance upon the airspeed indicator, but wing to horizon isn't the best counsel for a new pilot.

You'd be surprised. Bob isn't advocating looking at the wing. He's advocating looking at the horizon in relation to something and noting the deck angle under their butt as compared to the runway as a replacement for looking at the wing.

New pilots DO often need simple, concise, instructions relative to what they SEE out the window, versus gobbledegook about the ASI, VSI, blah blah... all stuff they're too overwhelmed to look at today. Tomorrow they'll learn to glance inside.

"Deck angle"/"Cowl on the horizon" is nearly always within a couple of knots of Vy at full power in most Cessna and is also a pretty decent tool for landing flare. "Slowly pull to put that cowl edge on the horizon and now don't let it touch down, keep pulling..." is a really common and direct way to help them through a landing.

Gusty conditions, they are going to need practice beyond how well that instruction works in calm conditions... if we're trying to stay on the OP's topic. I think the OP is past this stage but can't tell for sure.

The best slow landings with flaps in a Cessna will most often be when the runway isn't visible through the cowl (depending on how tall you are) and the cowl is on the horizon or higher. I see nothing wrong with what Bob said.

I think you may be hung up on the word "wing". He clarified. But you're not looking at the wing. (Having someone look at the wingtip while someone else lands IS a way to help them visualize what's going on in pre-landing and flare, if they're having trouble with it, but not while they're controlling the aircraft. But it's not what Bob was talking about.)
 
"The entire process of the landing is essentially one of slower and still slower flight, flight at higher and still higher Angle of Attack; all the time exercising very accurate control over the flight path. Yet, at the time when the student first tries landings, he has practically no experience at all in flight at medium or high Angle of Attack. Thus he must learn three things all at once…first, that the airplane can fly in this fashion; second, how it responds to the controls in this kind of flight; third, how to judge its flight path so that contact with the ground will be smooth."

Nothing about airspeed control in that quote.

Your argument glosses over the fact that that it is entirely possible to land without an airspeed indicator. I have done it and I have had my students do it.

Bob
 
Your argument glosses over the fact that that it is entirely possible to land without an airspeed indicator. I have done it and I have had my students do it.
My argument doesn't speak at all about whether or not it is possible to land without an ASI. I pointed out initially that I'm not arguing against teaching it. I'm fully capable of landing without it and know others are as well. In fact my early flight instructors would often cover it in the pattern.

What I'm saying is that your suggestion is only part of the picture. It confuses the concept of AOA by relating airspeed to deck angle. Anyone who's flown with a VV or FPM can tell you that vertical speed must be accounted for.
 
You'd be surprised. Bob isn't advocating looking at the wing. He's advocating looking at the horizon in relation to something and noting the deck angle under their butt as compared to the runway as a replacement for looking at the wing.

New pilots DO often need simple, concise, instructions relative to what they SEE out the window, versus gobbledegook about the ASI, VSI, blah blah... all stuff they're too overwhelmed to look at today. Tomorrow they'll learn to glance inside.

"Deck angle"/"Cowl on the horizon" is nearly always within a couple of knots of Vy at full power in most Cessna and is also a pretty decent tool for landing flare. "Slowly pull to put that cowl edge on the horizon and now don't let it touch down, keep pulling..." is a really common and direct way to help them through a landing.

Gusty conditions, they are going to need practice beyond how well that instruction works in calm conditions... if we're trying to stay on the OP's topic. I think the OP is past this stage but can't tell for sure.

The best slow landings with flaps in a Cessna will most often be when the runway isn't visible through the cowl (depending on how tall you are) and the cowl is on the horizon or higher. I see nothing wrong with what Bob said.

I think you may be hung up on the word "wing". He clarified. But you're not looking at the wing. (Having someone look at the wingtip while someone else lands IS a way to help them visualize what's going on in pre-landing and flare, if they're having trouble with it, but not while they're controlling the aircraft. But it's not what Bob was talking about.)

I'm not surprised, I think any competent student should be able to land without the ASI. I'm simply pointing out that his reference isn't sufficient in the way the described it.
 
IMHO you should not even be looking at the airspeed indicator; the Wright brothers did just fine without one. Back in the day, I had students fly at least one pattern with the airspeed indicator covered...as a VFR pilot you should be using visual cues.
A couple of years ago I had a few months off and wanted to fly with the instructor/owner before going up on my own in the Citabria. On the taxi out I asked her to remind me what Vy was. Her response was to hand me a piece of cardboard perfectly sized to cover the airspeed and altimeter. Must have flown six circuits that way.
 
My argument doesn't speak at all about whether or not it is possible to land without an ASI. I pointed out initially that I'm not arguing against teaching it. I'm fully capable of landing without it and know others are as well. In fact my early flight instructors would often cover it in the pattern.

What I'm saying is that your suggestion is only part of the picture. It confuses the concept of AOA by relating airspeed to deck angle. Anyone who's flown with a VV or FPM can tell you that vertical speed must be accounted for.
You can account for all that by just looking out the window.
 
I once thought I could not fly straight and level without an artificial horizon! I do it all the time now.
 
You can account for all that by just looking out the window.

I don't know for sure whether you can or not. Some of it is just feel combined with the visual cues. I don't think I can guess my VS by just looking out the window, actually I'm almost certain I can't. I have enough sim time to know that visual cues alone make it very difficult.
 
I don't know for sure whether you can or not. Some of it is just feel combined with the visual cues. I don't think I can guess my VS by just looking out the window, actually I'm almost certain I can't. I have enough sim time to know that visual cues alone make it very difficult.

Can't argue with that. Altitude and vertical speed are just about impossible to determine from visual clues....but a VSI is not a required instrument, and in VFR conditions I can position myself in relation to the landing surface sufficiently that by the time I turn final I have my familiar sight picture and do not rely on any instrument from that point on.

Bob
 
Can't argue with that. Altitude and vertical speed are just about impossible to determine from visual clues....but a VSI is not a required instrument, and in VFR conditions I can position myself in relation to the landing surface sufficiently that by the time I turn final I have my familiar sight picture and do not rely on any instrument from that point on.

Bob
Agreed. Though I think it is difficult to teach, and attempts to simplify it can be misleading if it not harmful. Maybe it's kind of like riding a unicycle. You could never teach it by explanation, you just have to put them on the cycle and coach them as they learn. There are many cues and they all have to work together to be meaningful. Deck angle and sight picture are a big part of it but they don't tell the whole story, that's all I was getting at.
 
That's the only kind of dive I know.
You have to drop the nose at the same time if you're not looking at bleeding airspeed at the same time. My point was you can drop the nose and slip to get down without gaining airspeed. You can drop a nose while doing other things, kinda like walking and chewing gum at the same time.
 
I don't know for sure whether you can or not. Some of it is just feel combined with the visual cues. I don't think I can guess my VS by just looking out the window, actually I'm almost certain I can't. I have enough sim time to know that visual cues alone make it very difficult.
When and why do you need to know your VS when VFR? I am VFR only, and none of the airplanes I fly regularly have a VSI. The plane I just bought has one. So far I've used it to satisfy my curiosity regarding what type of climb rate I could get. I am sure there's a circumstance that would make a VSI necessary in VFR conditions, I just don't know what that is. In the glider, a Vario is necessary to quantify lift and sink better than seat of the pants can do.
 
When and why do you need to know your VS when VFR? I am VFR only, and none of the airplanes I fly regularly have a VSI. The plane I just bought has one. So far I've used it to satisfy my curiosity regarding what type of climb rate I could get. I am sure there's a circumstance that would make a VSI necessary in VFR conditions, I just don't know what that is. In the glider, a Vario is necessary to quantify lift and sink better than seat of the pants can do.

My main use for the VSI in VFR is two things.

I try to keep descents less than, or at a maximum of ,500 fpm for passenger comfort in unpressurized aircraft.

It's a helpful to glance at instrument in steep turns. (Try it, you'll like it.) Stop ANY movement of the needle as soon as it starts and you'll smooth out those steep turns nicely. And yes... I know steep turns are an outside visual maneuver, but a glance or two at the VSI will make them absolutely flawless. Only a glance or two.

In an unfamiliar aircraft where you haven't yet memorized the angle of the horizon to the cowl for a level steep turn, it works wonders to nail that horizon angle and set it. One lap around with glances at the VSI and getting the angle picture down, and then you can make laps all day without it.
 
When and why do you need to know your VS when VFR? I am VFR only, and none of the airplanes I fly regularly have a VSI. The plane I just bought has one. So far I've used it to satisfy my curiosity regarding what type of climb rate I could get. I am sure there's a circumstance that would make a VSI necessary in VFR conditions, I just don't know what that is. In the glider, a Vario is necessary to quantify lift and sink better than seat of the pants can do.

When and why? Because I care about how I get there, not just getting there. Most VFR pilots don't care about precision, and I don't always. But, I also know how to be precise when I want to be, and part of that is due to monitoring and adjusting the VS to be where I want to be at a certain point in the pattern.
 
My main use for the VSI in VFR is two things.

I try to keep descents less than, or at a maximum of ,500 fpm for passenger comfort in unpressurized aircraft.

It's a helpful to glance at instrument in steep turns. (Try it, you'll like it.) Stop ANY movement of the needle as soon as it starts and you'll smooth out those steep turns nicely. And yes... I know steep turns are an outside visual maneuver, but a glance or two at the VSI will make them absolutely flawless. Only a glance or two.

In an unfamiliar aircraft where you haven't yet memorized the angle of the horizon to the cowl for a level steep turn, it works wonders to nail that horizon angle and set it. One lap around with glances at the VSI and getting the angle picture down, and then you can make laps all day without it.

In faster aircraft it's a necessity. The VSI shoes the trend before your scan will pick it up on the altimeter. VSI is one of the most essential parts of the scan when hand flying jets without a HUD and FPM. I also use it when doing steep turns, it's easy to keep them w/n 50' when you keep it in your scan.
 
When and why? Because I care about how I get there, not just getting there. Most VFR pilots don't care about precision, and I don't always. But, I also know how to be precise when I want to be, and part of that is due to monitoring and adjusting the VS to be where I want to be at a certain point in the pattern.

Honestly the altimeter works fine for that.

You can set pitch and power and nail a descent rate every time and see if it's matching what you want your altitude to be over your ground track with the altimeter.

12" MP, trimmed for 90 knots, flaps 10, is 500 fpm in my airplane, every single time.

If the VSI doesn't say that, I'm in an updraft or downdraft.
 
In faster aircraft it's a necessity. The VSI shoes the trend before your scan will pick it up on the altimeter. VSI is one of the most essential parts of the scan when hand flying jets without a HUD and FPM. I also use it when doing steep turns, it's easy to keep them w/n 50' when you keep it in your scan.

Interesting to know. No jet time here, of course. But it makes sense.

Playing the "don't let the altimeter needle move even a millimeter" in hand flown cruise is a fun way to get your eyeballs practice at seeing needle movement. You realize there's a lot more information there than when you aren't really looking for tiny movements.

On really long XCs in the Skylane I like to fiddle with the trim in tiny increments the needle has stopped moving for most purposes, and then nod my head forward and back or lean forward a bit to maintain the altitude with the weight shift. LOL. It has to be really calm to do that though.

It's fun to see if you can keep it up for a long time without needing to touch the yoke.
 
Honestly the altimeter works fine for that.

You can set pitch and power and nail a descent rate every time and see if it's matching what you want your altitude to be over your ground track with the altimeter.

12" MP, trimmed for 90 knots, flaps 10, is 500 fpm in my airplane, every single time.

If the VSI doesn't say that, I'm in an updraft or downdraft.

Depends, like I said earlier. It may be fine for what you want but it can put you behind on faster, heavier aircraft. Pitch and power aren't a magic formula. Updrafts and downdratfs occur, so power settings are a good reference to make adjustments from but they are only a reference. VS is telling you where you'll be, which is much more helpful than the altimeter, which is telling you where you're at.
 
Depends, like I said earlier. It may be fine for what you want but it can put you behind on faster, heavier aircraft. Pitch and power aren't a magic formula. Updrafts and downdratfs occur, so power settings are a good reference to make adjustments from but they are only a reference. VS is telling you where you'll be, which is much more helpful than the altimeter, which is telling you where you're at.

Fair enough. I also grew up an analog kid, so extrapolating the speed of a needle movement to an approximate number of seconds isn't too hard for me, but the digital kids have a hard time with it.
 
Fair enough. I also grew up an analog kid, so extrapolating the speed of a needle movement to an approximate number of seconds isn't too hard for me, but the digital kids have a hard time with it.

Most of my habits were formed analog and I taught that way even in digital aircraft. Some of it gets lost in slower GA planes, but the principles apply. Energy management isn't as critical around the turn in a Cessna, but if you understand it and apply it, it allows you to be precise. Those habit patterns translate well as you move up to larger a/c.

Quick example, earlier in the discussion someone was saying that a dive results in more airspeed. That is true when starting your descent from abeam, around the base turn, when turning final, or on final approach. You may be able to hit a certain altitude at a certain point, but how you get there matters. And it affects your energy state upon reaching that point. Your energy state is going to influence where you end up afterwards, so if you dump the nose to get to a reference point, you may hit it. But, you do so with more energy.

In the spirit of @nauga;

Cooter,
Who used to shout, "Keep'em safe Paddles!"
 
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Thanks!! Yes! :) I always try to steepen the descent angle down to runway when x-wind or gusty situation so I can stop myself blew off from the centerline.
I think it is pretty smart but everyone of my instructors telling me don't do that, they say it's unnecessarily dramatic. So... You are the first person who thinks that makes sense..! It works fine, right?!!!!
I am so curious when do you level off to start flare after that steep approach?
And actually I do it to keep the higher airspeed.
But I read some of your other comments, that you do for greater descent rate rather than faster airspeed? :)
Don't you also pick up a lot of airspeed by that?

Thank you again!

I'm confused who taught you a steeper decent made for a better approach in gusty conditions? You do want to carry more speed above the stall line( which in a 172 is absurdly low-- like 37 knots or so with full flaps and gear out.) If you want to carry a few extra knots on final that's fine but based on what you are saying over and over it seems like you are staying high up until final and then diving for the deck on final only to then be carrying way too much speed which is causing bouncing on touchdown. A bounce on touchdown means you landed too fast.

Try this-- next time you are up in wind, try flying the pattern with a higher rpm setting than usual. I know pitch for airspeed power for altitude but it's ok to cheat a bit and use the extra power to better plow through the wind. You may feel like you need more elevator control( more yoke input) but the extra power will accomplish a bit more speed up until you pull it out and will avoid the dive to the deck technique which is causing you to struggle with the landing touchdown.

The hardest part of gusty landings I think, is the touchdown and keeping the nose straight in the gusts. If you are getting blown off the center line you need to put the wing down into the wind and kick the opposite rudder. Getting blown off center has nothing to do with airspeed-- it has everything to do with not using proper technique to remain on the center line.
 
Most of my habits were formed analog and I taught that way even in digital aircraft. Some of it gets lost in slower GA planes, but the principles apply. Energy management isn't as critical around the turn in a Cessna, but if you understand it and apply it, it allows you to be precise. Those habit patterns translate well as you move up to larger a/c.

Quick example, earlier in the discussion someone was saying that a dive results in more airspeed. That is true when starting your descent from abeam, around the base turn, when turning final, or on final approach. You may be able to hit a certain altitude at a certain point, but how you get there matters. And it affects your energy state upon reaching that point. Your energy state is going to influence where you end up afterwards, so if you dump the nose to get to a reference point, you may hit it. But, you do so with more energy.

In the spirit of @nauga;

Cooter,
Who used to shout, "Keep'em safe Paddles!"

Thankfully my primary instructor wasn't a fan completely of the "rules of thumb" about "pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" or vice-versa. He used those early on but always with the admonition that any pitch and power are inexorably intertwined.

Like you say, if you pitch (let's say down) to hit an altitude, you also sped up if you didn't remove the appropriate amount of power. So the two must be used in concert.

In another forum today, in fact, a pile of CFIs discussed the pitch/power thing and most agreed they teach starting with the "pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" mantra early on because they're trying to instill in pilots that if they're stalled or headed for a stall they want the pilot to pitch down NOW if that's all they remember to do.

But in reality you might also need more power in that scenario. Like you said, depends on what the energy trend was that got them there.

Disconnecting pitch and power into either speed or altitude, is a simplification technique, but the physics reality is that they're inexorably linked.

Most pilots really figure this out at the Instrument rating, I think. Pitching to chase a glideslope they start to realize they can't do that and hold an airspeed. To settle the whole thing down they learn to work both in concert more than they probably have before. Often because the only time they've really attempted any precision with it was on final and on the back side of the power curve.

Try this-- next time you are up in wind, try flying the pattern with a higher rpm setting than usual. I know pitch for airspeed power for altitude but it's ok to cheat a bit and use the extra power to better plow through the wind.

Plow through the wind? Are you trying to describe that as groundspeed goes down (more headwind) if the same descent rate per minute is held, you'll come up short, because it takes longer to get there? There's two fixes for that, fly faster (which is what you're suggesting by adding power) or turn in closer to the runway on base and accept that the approach is steeper. Both have challenges, but flying faster means at some point in the approach you have to dissipate more energy to slow to a proper landing speed.

For the church-goers for the "stabilized approach" methodology, you'll have to "destabilize" significantly to get slowed over the fence. Technically the steeper approach is more stable than flying faster to counteract the headwind's effect on landing point out of a consistent rate of descent.


You may feel like you need more elevator control( more yoke input) but the extra power will accomplish a bit more speed up until you pull it out and will avoid the dive to the deck technique which is causing you to struggle with the landing touchdown.

Flying with more power in most singles means the tail has more authority, not less. You'd need less control input pressure for the same effect as a lower speed. Also if trim is being used properly, the average control input pressure should be near zero. I honestly have no idea what you're attempting to get across here, but it makes no sense.


The hardest part of gusty landings I think, is the touchdown and keeping the nose straight in the gusts. If you are getting blown off the center line you need to put the wing down into the wind and kick the opposite rudder. Getting blown off center has nothing to do with airspeed-- it has everything to do with not using proper technique to remain on the center line.

Actually as you slow, the rudder is less effective and airspeed can have a VERY significant impact on directional control. Again, this makes no sense. "Proper technique" means adding more rudder as the aircraft slows and to a lesser extent, more aileron all the way through the landing until the ailerons hit the stops and you're rolling on the ground below flying airspeed.

In fact, with a cross wind, "running out of rudder" to maintain directional alignment is often the cause of a go-around, since you've now exceeded the maximum crosswind capability of the aircraft in today's conditions. If the rudder pedal that was holding the aircraft aligned with the runway bottoms out as the aircraft slows down, directional control only can get worse from there.
 
Plow through the wind? Are you trying to describe that as groundspeed goes down (more headwind) if the same descent rate per minute is held, you'll come up short, because it takes longer to get there? There's two fixes for that, fly faster (which is what you're suggesting by adding power) or turn in closer to the runway on base and accept that the approach is steeper. Both have challenges, but flying faster means at some point in the approach you have to dissipate more energy to slow to a proper landing speed.

For the church-goers for the "stabilized approach" methodology, you'll have to "destabilize" significantly to get slowed over the fence. Technically the steeper approach is more stable than flying faster to counteract the headwind's effect on landing point out of a consistent rate of descent.




Flying with more power in most singles means the tail has more authority, not less. You'd need less control input pressure for the same effect as a lower speed. Also if trim is being used properly, the average control input pressure should be near zero. I honestly have no idea what you're attempting to get across here, but it makes no sense.




Actually as you slow, the rudder is less effective and airspeed can have a VERY significant impact on directional control. Again, this makes no sense. "Proper technique" means adding more rudder as the aircraft slows and to a lesser extent, more aileron all the way through the landing until the ailerons hit the stops and you're rolling on the ground below flying airspeed.

In fact, with a cross wind, "running out of rudder" to maintain directional alignment is often the cause of a go-around, since you've now exceeded the maximum crosswind capability of the aircraft in today's conditions. If the rudder pedal that was holding the aircraft aligned with the runway bottoms out as the aircraft slows down, directional control only can get worse from there.

For the "plow through the wind point, my point is, if you have more power in during the final approach portion of the lading you can achieve a shallower angle of approach with more airspeed. Further, as you correctly said, the control surfaces have more effectiveness the higher the airspeed is so we all have a better chance of counteracting the gist of we have more power in and we can in fact better counteract the force applied by the wind either increasing or decreasing. This has worked for me in my 300+ hours flying a 172. It may not technically be exactly as the book tells us but it's effective and keeps me from adding the dive to the deck in. My experience is in gusty conditions the 172 is vulnerable to plus or minus airspeed on final and I want to give myself some buffer from that. Further, as I know you know, the 172 can loose airspeed real fast. So the idea that I can't loose the possibly 5 to 10 plus knots to "stabilize" the approach seems more practical for flying faster planes or maybe even jets.

The more yoke input means, again in practical sense, if you are descending with more power you will have to push down harder on the yoke to achieve a decent unless you take out power or re-trim. We all know this as fact so I get that the elevator is more effective but the control inputs is what I was referring too.

With the rudder vs airspeed comment, this was in direct response to the op who suggested he was drifting off the center line on touchdown. I was simply pointing out that airspeed alone will not help him stay more on the center line. If in fact there is any component of crosswind, you can't counteract that unless you input low wing opposite rudder technique. More experienced pilots all know this but sometimes I can remember as a student getting over the runway and then being content that I made it and not flying those last 20 feet. We all learn quick that we must fly all the way down. In truth though, I don't even believe the op mentioned crosswind landings just gusty landings so my suggestion about rudder usage may not even be linked to the original question.

I think sometimes what happens on these forums is I tend to use words that are more everyday person lingo( especially when trying to help a newer pilot out with less experience than me,) and that causes some confusion amoungst the CFI's who tend to speak more technical using more pilot jargon-- not intended as a knock. I'm not a CFI and have nothing but respect for you all so when I attempt to share its based solely on my experience. Thanks denverpilot for your thoughts regarding what I wrote. It reminded me of some key principles of flying that I don't always think about in the way you described.
 
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2) if I find a strong downdraft on final I'm going to max power and pitching for Vy. Also looking for softest thing to hit if I'm taken to the ground by the downdraft. I haven't hit the ground yet but have had 700 fpm down while full power and Vy in a 172.

Isnt Vx more appropriate in this scenario? I don't really care about how much altitude I gain per unit time, but I'm damn well very interested in altitude gained per unit distance travelled.
 
Isnt Vx more appropriate in this scenario? I don't really care about how much altitude I gain per unit time, but I'm damn well very interested in altitude gained per unit distance travelled.
My perspective at the time was that Vy was where I should be. I guess it could be argued either way. Might be interesting to test it in a good sim. When it happened my reaction was pretty much automatic (go around). Normally the wisdom is to fly faster to get out of a downdraft and head for lower terrain. Turning toward lower terrain may have been an option but it was iffy because I didn't have much altitude to work with and wanted to hit the ground wings level. Hindsight isn't 20/20 on this one other than saying I didn't hit the ground.
 
My perspective at the time was that Vy was where I should be. I guess it could be argued either way. Might be interesting to test it in a good sim.

Not knocking your reaction, just asking the question to file away for use in the future. It seems to me that climbing away from terrain in a big sink on approach would be the same as climbing away from terrain on takeoff for obstacle clearance.

Normally the wisdom is to fly faster to get out of a downdraft and head for lower terrain.

Yeah, one time at altitude I got caught in a decent sink, and like you above I instinctively went full power and pitched for Vy, and was still showing 500 down on the VSI. I've since learned that it may be better to fly fast, take the altitude drop, and get out of the sink quicker.
 
Not knocking your reaction, just asking the question to file away for use in the future. It seems to me that climbing away from terrain in a big sink on approach would be the same as climbing away from terrain on takeoff for obstacle clearance.



Yeah, one time at altitude I got caught in a decent sink, and like you above I instinctively went full power and pitched for Vy, and was still showing 500 down on the VSI. I've since learned that it may be better to fly fast, take the altitude drop, and get out of the sink quicker.
I didn't take it as a knock so no worries. It would be interesting to see which speed would be better. All my training says Vy on a go around.

And yeah, don't fight a downdraft. Watched the autopilot fight'em many times. Now I go to pitch mode pretty quick. Maybe the next generation autopilots will make the switch automagically. I do tend to fly with a lot more than a thousand feet terrain clearance though so usually not too worried about a few hundred feet.
 
Not knocking your reaction, just asking the question to file away for use in the future. It seems to me that climbing away from terrain in a big sink on approach would be the same as climbing away from terrain on takeoff for obstacle clearance.



Yeah, one time at altitude I got caught in a decent sink, and like you above I instinctively went full power and pitched for Vy, and was still showing 500 down on the VSI. I've since learned that it may be better to fly fast, take the altitude drop, and get out of the sink quicker.
Windshear is treated a little bit different than just avoiding terrain. With windshear you actually want to increase your ground track, while with a simple terrain avoidance you want to shorten your ground track. I separate them in my mind by thinking of avoiding a big hill or mountain for terrain avoidance and thinking of windshear as a hurry up and get out while not hitting the ground.
 
Whatever you do, do NOT hesitate to go around if it's really uncomfortable! More than once if necessary, keep your hand on that throttle. Have done so more than once.
 
Windshear is defined as rapid changes in airspeed, right? Gusts do that. So does mechanical turbulence. The best way to manage your target airspeed is with AOA, and if you want that target airspeed to be on the slower side you trade altitude to retain/regain airspeed when the winds take your airspeed from you. If you fly your final leg at a target rate of descent your final leg needs to be steeper in the wind since your ground speed is slower. You aren't covering as much distance as normal but you're still descending from the same altitude, yes? My cabin strip requires landing on a short(ish) and narrow surface (about 1100' x 15') surrounded by tall trees and typically with a quartering wind. I used to fly level at the treetops and try to chop power and drop in. It doesn't work consistently. The only tool to control descent is power and that'll result in floating in ground effect and eat up too much runway. Hitting my spot is the goal for every landing regardless of wind influence. Setting up high and steep to take the obstacles out if the equation is the best technique. It provides much better control and escape options when the winds are blowing unfavorably.
 
Isnt Vx more appropriate in this scenario? I don't really care about how much altitude I gain per unit time, but I'm damn well very interested in altitude gained per unit distance travelled.

You have a point.

My perspective at the time was that Vy was where I should be. I guess it could be argued either way.

I think the argument in the training world against Vx is that you're going to lose some of that gust margin you so carefully maintained on final.

Most pilots can maintain something approximating Vy in gusty conditions. To maintain Vx you may need faster pitch and power control movements than you've practiced for if say, another ten knot lower airspeed gust/shear happens right as you hit the Vx speed.

If you have the skill set to average out at Vx -0/+10 -- yeah, do it. But the -0 becomes more critical at Vx than Vy. Most light aircraft a loss of 10 at Vy is just going to put you right AT Vx.

So training to Vy gives a margin in gusts.

The "feel" you can develop over time is just HOW gusty it is. If the ASI is wagging back and forth 10, Vy. If the gusts aren't that bad and you can hold it relatively still, Vx might be good. It's very much a "butt sink feel" thing when the gusts are really bad. If the airplane keeps trying to fall out from under my butt and my hand is having to make fast and large throttle movements, I'm probably not going to attempt to pitch to Vx.

Now, that all said as a general "training" comment... individual aircraft can have advantages and disadvantages. MY airplane because of the STOL kit has a HUGE range between Vx and stall. Losing -10 from Vx isn't nearly as big a deal in mine but the sink rate increases MASSIVELY below Vx and the power application that far behind the power curve not only has to be fast but it has to be YUGE.

But you can arrest the sink rate at anything but the hottest days in Denver. It'll fly (wallowing and with huge control movements) with flaps 40 and full power at 42 knots indicated. Adding full power from a trimmed 40 flaps condition to arrest a sink rate is also going to force the need for a very hard counterintuitive PUSH on the yoke to keep the nose from coming up.

So yeah. *I* can pitch to Vx adding full power for a gusty go-around in mine at full flaps and it will DO it. It will also scare the holy hell out of an instructor on board. Been there, done that. LOL. I warn ALL other CFIs and DPEs and fellow pilots about the performance of the STOL kit before we launch now, even in good conditions.

Another behavior that will surprise people is that I can FORCE the airplane to float a LONG way at Flap 20 with the ailerons also drooping to 20 in precision power off landings. When doing a power off 180 in my airplane it's not a big deal to be 500' "short" looking compared to a non-STOL Cessna. If you keep coming back with the yoke and pull hard and quick, it'll make it the additional 500' from a more "normal looking" approach. But you have to pull hard. And it'll be a very tail-low landing.

It's a workout. Much prefer not to surprise the person in the other seat with it if possible. :)
 
Windshear is defined as rapid changes in airspeed, right? Gusts do that. So does mechanical turbulence. The best way to manage your target airspeed is with AOA, and if you want that target airspeed to be on the slower side you trade altitude to retain/regain airspeed when the winds take your airspeed from you. If you fly your final leg at a target rate of descent your final leg needs to be steeper in the wind since your ground speed is slower. You aren't covering as much distance as normal but you're still descending from the same altitude, yes? My cabin strip requires landing on a short(ish) and narrow surface (about 1100' x 15') surrounded by tall trees and typically with a quartering wind. I used to fly level at the treetops and try to chop power and drop in. It doesn't work consistently. The only tool to control descent is power and that'll result in floating in ground effect and eat up too much runway. Hitting my spot is the goal for every landing regardless of wind influence. Setting up high and steep to take the obstacles out if the equation is the best technique. It provides much better control and escape options when the winds are blowing unfavorably.
Windshear is a rapid change in wind speed and/or direction
 
Windshear is a rapid change in wind speed and/or direction

So I have a question, does wind shear have to cause a loss or gain in indicated airspeed in order to actually be windshear? If I ever experience what I think is windshear(fortunately not very often),I will not report it to the tower as windshear I will just say I got a plus or minus 10 knots on final. I wonder if that report is the same as windshear or if that's not the same thing. That being said, me in the 172 may loose 10 knots but the 737 behind me may not have any of that.
 
So I have a question, does wind shear have to cause a loss or gain in indicated airspeed in order to actually be windshear? If I ever experience what I think is windshear(fortunately not very often),I will not report it to the tower as windshear I will just say I got a plus or minus 10 knots on final. I wonder if that report is the same as windshear or if that's not the same thing. That being said, me in the 172 may loose 10 knots but the 737 behind me may not have any of that.
Any significant change in windspeed on final should be reported at towered fields. Updrafts or downdrafts are windspeed and should be reported. Some times we get a little busy and don't report them until the unplanned landing has been avoided...the tower can sort out the verbiage.
 
So I have a question, does wind shear have to cause a loss or gain in indicated airspeed in order to actually be windshear? If I ever experience what I think is windshear(fortunately not very often),I will not report it to the tower as windshear I will just say I got a plus or minus 10 knots on final. I wonder if that report is the same as windshear or if that's not the same thing. That being said, me in the 172 may loose 10 knots but the 737 behind me may not have any of that.
Both horizontal and vertical shear will cause a change in airspeed. Always report the fluctuations to tower.
 
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