Remote airport, and you departed without activating your clearance

...If they *did* ask me the question, I think I'd be pretty skittish about answering "yes" unless the bases were above the highest terrain in the region. The question is asked before the route is given. Without knowing the route, how can I know whether I can assure my own clearance from terrain I can't see? Can you negotiate the route with the controller? In principle, of course you can always negotiate, but I mean practically speaking? Can you say, well no I can't maintain own terrain clearance along that route from here, can I finish flying the ODP first? Could you give me this route instead? A route that takes me direct MPV VOR first would be easy as long as conditions were good enough to depart VFR in the first place, but a route that goes straight NW from KMPV encounters the Green Mts fairly soon. If that's the direction I'm headed, I'm not telling the controller I can maintain my own terrain clearance if I can't see those mountains.

The times I did it, I determined my routing up to the MIA myself. I haven't done it in a long time, so I don't remember all the details of the conversations, but I never had a controller take me off of my planned route prior to establishing radar contact.

As for being skittish, my opinion is that if you don't have the route planned in advance (with an AMPLE safety margin!), then you shouldn't do it unless you're in an area where you know that there are no obstacles that could affect you in any direction.

Logically, there's no way to "maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance" without having control over the routing yourself. There's no way to do the former without the latter. And that's true for both VFR conditions and IFR conditions.
 
Last edited:
If you're trying to pick up a filed IFR clearance airborne, below the MIA and during MVFR, then you should be prepared for climbing IMC. If not, you stay on the ground and get your clearance there. That simple.

Personally I've only picked up an abbreviated IFR while airborne, below the MIA and MVFR. Did it many times but I was very familiar with my surroundings (terrain / obstructions) and the routing on an abbreviated is very basic. The transaction with ATC is fairly quick even with the "question" being asked.

Can never have a pop up IFR clearance thread without mentioning the infamous BE40 accident in Rome GA. Highlights the problems that can arise while trying to get a clearance while airborne.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-summaries/AAR92-01S.pdf
 
Can never have a pop up IFR clearance thread without mentioning the infamous BE40 accident in Rome GA. Highlights the problems that can arise while trying to get a clearance while airborne.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-summaries/AAR92-01S.pdf
What that shows is the time-critical nature of obtaining a clearance. Asking "the question" before clearing the aircraft higher would not have prevented the accident, but might have caused it if the pilot never heard it before and wasn't primed and ready with the magic words. I don't fault the crew if they were suckered into the air by a seemingly clear sky--that can and does happen. I fault them for not realizing they needed to get higher immediately even if it meant busting into Bravo air from below.

dtuuri
 
Logically, there's no way to "maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance" without having control over the routing yourself. There's no way to do the former without the latter. And that's true for both VFR conditions and IFR conditions.
My point exactly. And in Detroit airspace, the one time I remember being asked the question (this was as an IFR student, hasn't happened since I passed the checkride), I was immediately given a different route from the one I filed. In that case there was no point in negotiating a different route since I was already higher than the only serious obstacles in the area (the Southfield antenna farm), but since that experience I've never assumed that I'd have control of my routing in that situation.

Fortunately I've never been in that position since moving out here. In fact there was one time I tried to offer that I could take responsibility for terrain clearance when the bases were well above the terrain so I didn't have to wait for a clearance, but it didn't make any difference to ZBW. :dunno:
 
What that shows is the time-critical nature of obtaining a clearance. Asking "the question" before clearing the aircraft higher would not have prevented the accident, but might have caused it if the pilot never heard it before and wasn't primed and ready with the magic words. I don't fault the crew if they were suckered into the air by a seemingly clear sky--that can and does happen. I fault them for not realizing they needed to get higher immediately even if it meant busting into Bravo air from below.

dtuuri
The time-critical nature of needing the clearance was because they chose to depart VFR with a known 1000' OVC layer and surrounding mountainous terrain that would have been partially obscured. The correct thing to do would be call for an IFR release on the ground and wait your turn.

There is no Bravo to bust around RMG. They decided to not go through the clouds because of the possible conflicting traffic. I would have (if I ended up in this predicament) just climbed to get above terrain.

The delay in giving the clearance was because there was no legal way to do it. With the other arrivals occupying the airspace and the height of the MVA of the area, what was the controller to do?

Additionally, I disagree with your thoughts about maintaining terrain and obstruction clearance. Trying to pick up an IFR in the air is different than on the ground. Coming off an airport, you are protected by TERPS. If you call in the air and the controller just issues you a clearance and you hit a mountain or obstruction, who's your family looking to blame? Since every specific point in space can't be TERPS, the FAA decided to allow people to get their IFR clearance providing they agree to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance.
 
My point exactly. And in Detroit airspace, the one time I remember being asked the question (this was as an IFR student, hasn't happened since I passed the checkride), I was immediately given a different route from the one I filed. In that case there was no point in negotiating a different route since I was already higher than the only serious obstacles in the area (the Southfield antenna farm), but since that experience I've never assumed that I'd have control of my routing in that situation.

Was that before or after the controller said "radar contact"?

Since you knew that you were already above the relevant obstacles, I would not have had a problem with accepting ATC's routing. However, if that were not the case, I would not accept a routing toward the obstacles. I would say "unable due to [whatever the obstacle was]" and tell them what I could do instead. Under 91.3, you always have that option if you're not sure that an instruction or clearance is safe.

As for the filed route, I don't necessarily try to file my terrain avoidance climb route. Sometimes there's no way to file it. Spiraling upwards over the airport would be an example. I do inform ATC of what I'm planning to do. Once I'm in radar contact, I'm happy to take routing directions from ATC if those instructions will allow me to remain clear of the obstacles.

Shortly after taking off from a non-towered airport in the Sierra Nevada Mountains one night, the controller gave me an instruction that would have sent me on a route that would have had me paralleling the mountain range for quite a while. Although this was in VFR conditions, I couldn't see the mountains, so I wasn't comfortable with that, and I proposed flying away from the mountains a while longer before turning toward the fix he had given me. The controller was fine with that.

Here in mountain country, I've noticed that controllers are good about approving such requests.

Fortunately I've never been in that position since moving out here. In fact there was one time I tried to offer that I could take responsibility for terrain clearance when the bases were well above the terrain so I didn't have to wait for a clearance, but it didn't make any difference to ZBW. :dunno:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "so I didn't have to wait for a clearance," but barring an emergency, I wouldn't climb into IMC until I received the IFR clearance. If conditions are such that I can't be sure of remaining VFR long enough to get back on the ground if I don't get a clearance, then I don't take off. (I imagine you do the same.)
 
Last edited:
Another classic case of CFIT while waiting for a pop-up clearance was the accident that took out half of Reba McIntire's band. They made a night VFR departure to the east from San Diego. Because of the TCA (now class B), they stayed below 3000 while waiting for their IFR clearance, and hit a mountain. (See attachment.)

This was a case where a pilot relied on hope instead of planning. The process for providing your own terrain and obstruction clearance in night VFR conditions is very similar to doing it in IFR conditions, because in neither case can you depend on being able to see the obstacles. It also illustrates how easy coming up with a viable plan can sometimes be if you just look at a chart. In this case, all he would have had to do is take off over the ocean, and then he wouldn't have had the problem of being squeezed between the class B and the terrain.

(It also illustrates that a night VFR takeoff without a VFR chart is not a good idea.)

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...b4c807869586256dc700717e5f/$FILE/totalrpt.doc
 

Attachments

  • Reba McIntire's Band.pdf
    21.7 KB · Views: 3
Last edited:
The time-critical nature of needing the clearance was because they chose to depart VFR with a known 1000' OVC layer and surrounding mountainous terrain that would have been partially obscured. The correct thing to do would be call for an IFR release on the ground and wait your turn.
Sooner or later after takeoff you will run out of time. In this case it was sooner, but it does illustrate the point that unnecessary communications that accomplish nothing but appeasement for FAA legal counsel ought not occur. As I said in my post "...if they were suckered into the air by a seemingly clear sky" I wouldn't fault them for that. Automatic weather stations aren't always reliable and a pilot could see something quite different--and be wrong. The CVR, though seems to indicate they took off despite what they could see and I agree they should have got it on the ground.

There is no Bravo to bust around RMG. They decided to not go through the clouds because of the possible conflicting traffic. I would have (if I ended up in this predicament) just climbed to get above terrain.
Yes, I was thinking of the San Diego accident which was similar. I was on a layover in Atlanta the day of the accident and read about the Bruno accident in the morning paper. Had been to Rome recently, too, so I followed the news about it for a long time.

The delay in giving the clearance was because there was no legal way to do it. With the other arrivals occupying the airspace and the height of the MVA of the area, what was the controller to do?
Oh, I'm not faulting ATC for the delay, I'm merely pointing out time is of the essence and needless, confusing questions can be deadly.

Additionally, I disagree with your thoughts about maintaining terrain and obstruction clearance. Trying to pick up an IFR in the air is different than on the ground. Coming off an airport, you are protected by TERPS. If you call in the air and the controller just issues you a clearance and you hit a mountain or obstruction, who's your family looking to blame?
On what grounds would they stand? It's clear as a bell pilots are responsible for terrain avoidance, ATC for traffic separation.

Since every specific point in space can't be TERPS, the FAA decided to allow people to get their IFR clearance providing they agree to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance.

We'll never agree then. Holding a clearance hostage until the FAA gets a redundant waiver can have a negative affect on safety.

dtuuri
 
Personally, I don't mind the question, but it sounds like pilot education about its implications needs to be greatly improved.

As for the time required for the conversation, if getting the IFR clearance is that time-critical, then my plan is fatally flawed in the first place.
 
As for the time required for the conversation, if getting the IFR clearance is that time-critical, then my plan is fatally flawed in the first place.
Sooner or later after takeoff it will be critical. In the first place, you decided to depart with an airborne pickup because you had reason to believe there would not be a delay, some fools excepted. Otherwise, you'd have got it on the ground. So, off you go in your biz jet climbing at three or four times the climb gradient assumed on a diverse departure (which is just 200'/nm). Next, ATC reneges on their promise of a timely pickup at pattern altitude, so you need to pull back the power, slow or stop your climb to avoid the ceiling and bide your time at LESS than the assumed gradient. So, now you're using up the surplus altitude you gained and moving downrange from the airport at four miles a minute without even a sectional chart. The pressure mounts as you're trying to decide how far you can go before needing to do a 180 in the increasingly worsening visibility under the ceiling. Finally, ATC has your clearance, but before they can release it they want to know "Can you maintain terrain clearance below MIA?"

"What? Of course not, that's why I need an IFR clearance--so I can get higher."

Then the back and forth conversation ensues where they try to explain what "the question" means. BTDT.

dtuuri
 
There's at least a third reason the question is flawed. Let's review:
  1. "Time is of the Essence",
  2. "You can't answer the question until you get your routing", which may well be different from the one you requested, and
  3. If the lack of TERPed climb paths from a random airborne location is the logic for asking the question, then it should also be asked of every pilot receiving a clearance before departing an airport. After all, there's no obligation to follow an ODP or maintain 200 ft/nm, so the question is a "Double Standard".
dtuuri
 
There's at least a third reason the question is flawed. Let's review:
  1. "Time is of the Essence",
  2. "You can't answer the question until you get your routing", which may well be different from the one you requested, and
  3. If the lack of TERPed climb paths from a random airborne location is the logic for asking the question, then it should also be asked of every pilot receiving a clearance before departing an airport. After all, there's no obligation to follow an ODP or maintain 200 ft/nm, so the question is a "Double Standard".
dtuuri
Yeah. Good points. There is a solution to them though. If ya depart VFR, call and ask for your clearance, it becomes a problem because of those things, then you just remain VFR, return and land.
 
Yeah. Good points. There is a solution to them though. If ya depart VFR, call and ask for your clearance, it becomes a problem because of those things, then you just remain VFR, return and land.
Why can't ATC simply preface the altitude clearance with "pilot's discretion"? E.g., "N1234W, you're cleared to Timbuktu via Holston Mountain direct, pilot's discretion maintain 5000, squawk xxxx, etc."

dtuuri
 
Why can't ATC simply preface the altitude clearance with "pilot's discretion"? E.g., "N1234W, you're cleared to Timbuktu via Holston Mountain direct, pilot's discretion maintain 5000, squawk xxxx, etc."

dtuuri
Ya know, that would be a good idea. Kinda like the "no separation services provided" spiel ya get with practice approaches. The don't ask you first if you're cool with that, they just spit it out with the approach clearance. I ain't holding my breath they'll bite off on it, but it's worth a try.
 
Why can't ATC simply preface the altitude clearance with "pilot's discretion"? E.g., "N1234W, you're cleared to Timbuktu via Holston Mountain direct, pilot's discretion maintain 5000, squawk xxxx, etc."

dtuuri
That's likely to raise more questions than the original phrase that you dislike, for whatever reason. The way they ask now is fine.
 
Was that before or after the controller said "radar contact"?
I'm pretty sure it was before. It was about 8 years ago now, but I seem to recall the controller calling our N-number, said "understand you're looking for an IFR clearance to Grand Rapids, can you maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance through 3000 <I think it was>?"
Since you knew that you were already above the relevant obstacles, I would not have had a problem with accepting ATC's routing. However, if that were not the case, I would not accept a routing toward the obstacles. I would say "unable due to [whatever the obstacle was]" and tell them what I could do instead. Under 91.3, you always have that option if you're not sure that an instruction or clearance is safe.
Yes, that sounds like a good way to do it. Doesn't admit that you could NOT really maintain terrain clearance after saying you could, and puts the burden on the controller to find an alternate routing.
As for the filed route, I don't necessarily try to file my terrain avoidance climb route. Sometimes there's no way to file it. Spiraling upwards over the airport would be an example. I do inform ATC of what I'm planning to do. Once I'm in radar contact, I'm happy to take routing directions from ATC if those instructions will allow me to remain clear of the obstacles.
Yes, same here. In fact if I'm departing VFR to pick up a clearance in the air, I pretty much never file my terrain avoidance climbing route. Even when getting my clearance on the ground, I don't usually file the ODP -- in most cases I wouldn't even know how to do that.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "so I didn't have to wait for a clearance," but barring an emergency, I wouldn't climb into IMC until I received the IFR clearance. If conditions are such that I can't be sure of remaining VFR long enough to get back on the ground if I don't get a clearance, then I don't take off. (I imagine you do the same.)
Oh no, of course not. Any time I pick up airborne, conditions are such that I can amble along VFR for a long while. But if I don't get a clearance, I might have to stay below the clouds until I reach an area where the MIA is lower, if the bases are lower than reported. At lower altitudes I have to choose between performance and economy (running LOP), so I'd prefer getting the clearance.

Any time there is any doubt whether the bases are high enough to safely fly VFR indefinitely along my intended route, I call up ATC on the ground.
 
The aircraft isn't restricted to following a specific course below the MIA. The pilot must be allowed to manuever on their own to avoid obstacles until reaching the MIA.

Ive gotten "Crusader33, cleared to Cairns AAF via radar vectors, climb and maintain 2,000. Upon reaching 2,000, fly heading (vector)." I navigate as necessary to avoid terrain / obstructions but once I'm at his MVA, ATC takes over that task for me.

Or, if you have filed a flight plan and going out of sector, "Crusader33, cleared to NAS Pensacola as filed, climb and maintain 6,000, after leaving 2,000, proceed direct (fix)." Some will even issue the clearance after reaching the MIA but still assign a climb. Example, "Crusader33, climb and maintain 6,000, after leaving 2,000, cleared to NAS Pensacola as filed." Personally don't care for that version but point being, the controller should not be restricting the pilot to any course below the MIA. Therefore, the pilot doesn't need to know about their clearance when deciding their answer to the terrain / obstruction question.

As far as the big question taking up needed time, as I said, if 5 seconds is critical to a pilot, then they should've made a better evaluation of departing in those conditions. Also, probably lacking in basic multitasking skills.
 
Last edited:
The aircraft isn't restricted to following a specific course below the MIA. The pilot must be allowed to manuever on their own to avoid obstacles until reaching the MIA.
Absolutely!

...point being, the controller should not be restricting the pilot to any course below the MIA. Therefore, the pilot doesn't need to know about their clearance when deciding their answer to the terrain / obstruction question.
If the route is going to be different than the pilot's pre-planning, like to an airway with a higher MEA, then I think the pilot deserves to know in order to decide how to get on the route safely. The controller then might have be to held hostage pending the pilot's approval of the route.

As far as the big question taking up needed time, as I said, if 5 seconds is critical to a pilot, then they should've made a better evaluation of departing in those conditions. Also, probably lacking in basic multitasking skills.
Even one second more than necessary is a negative influence, but a distracting conversation during departure that might take quite awhile to enlighten the pilot might be the difference between life and death. Us older pilots never had to answer to such boiler plating, why you Johnny and Janie come latelies?

dtuuri
 
Even one second more than necessary is a negative influence, but a distracting conversation during departure that might take quite awhile to enlighten the pilot might be the difference between life and death. Us older pilots never had to answer to such boiler plating, why you Johnny and Janie come latelies?
If one second, or even one minute, is going to make a difference, you should have picked up your clearance on the ground. I can remember controllers asking this question back in the late 80s or early 90s, so it's not a new procedure.
 
If one second, or even one minute, is going to make a difference, you should have picked up your clearance on the ground. I can remember controllers asking this question back in the late 80s or early 90s, so it's not a new procedure.
Depends on how long the delayed clearance is doesn't it? Sooner or later it's too long and having gotten it on ground is just hindsight. I hate this scolding, holier than thou attitude around here. Just because you know the magic words and are ok with "make work" procedures doesn't mean everybody else does. If this question makes sense to you, then you should just love to answer even more, like "We can't give you your IFR clearance until you specify your climb gradient." Or "Can you maintain MEA in icing conditions?"

dtuuri
 
If this question makes sense to you, then you should just love to answer even more, like "We can't give you your IFR clearance until you specify your climb gradient." Or "Can you maintain MEA in icing conditions?"
Enjoy those straw men...
 
Sooner or later after takeoff it will be critical.

Not necessarily. Personally, I consider taking off VFR to be fatally flawed unless ceiling and visibility are sufficient to allow me to remain in VFR conditions long enough to land at my airport of departure. The only exception, for me, would be if I were sure that I could remain in VFR conditions to another airport within my fuel range.

In the first place, you decided to depart with an airborne pickup because you had reason to believe there would not be a delay, some fools excepted. Otherwise, you'd have got it on the ground.
That is not the reason I have done it in most cases, and in the few times when it was, conditions were good enough so that it was apparent before takeoff that I would be able to get back on the ground if I was unable to get the airborne pickup. (There was one possible exception that I can think of, but I learned from the experience and raised my standards for what weather information I need to have before attempting it.)

Some examples of situations in which I have gone for an airborne pickup are as follows:

- The weather was VFR where I took off and IFR at my destination. I was departing in a piston single from TRK (in the Sierras) on a flight to the SFO area, and an IFR departure would have required far more climbing than was needed. I didn't request my IFR until somewhere around Sacramento.

- For a flight from South Lake Tahoe (TVL) when they still had a control tower, the winds were favoring a takeoff to the south, but among other issues, the Cutlass I was flying lacked the climb performance required for the ODP from that runway. The winds were too strong for a tailwind takeoff, so I took off VFR, made a downwind departure, and followed the localizer out over the lake, thus solving the climb gradient problem. While I was still in VFR conditions, I called for the pop-up clearance. The controller expressed reservations about the operation but didn't ask the terrain-avoidance question, so I volunteered the information, and she granted the clearance. If necessary, getting back to TVL in VFR conditions would not have been a problem.

- On a VFR departure from a Seattle area airport to the Portland area one winter (again in a Cutlass), I was planning to avoid potential icing by climbing in VFR conditions until I was above the reported tops to the south. When I got above 11,000, I discovered that the headwinds were so strong that I was making five knots ground speed according to the DME (!), so I went back down and requested an IFR clearance. This time, the controller did ask the question, and given my location and what I could see underneath the ceiling ahead, it was obvious that there would be nothing to hit towards Olympia (OLM), so I told him that I could do it by climbing direct Olympia. If I hadn't gotten the clearance, landing somewhere in VFR conditions would not have been a problem. (Fortunately, I didn't pick up any ice.)

- On a VFR flight up the Oregon coast under the ceiling, I came to a wall of clouds that went all the way to the surface. I circled in VFR conditions while I called for a pop-up clearance, and said that I could maintain terrain and obstruction clearance by climbing to the west. (Duh!) I don't remember if the question was asked or if I volunteered the information. (One of the nice things about the Oregon Coast is that there's an airport about every ten minutes, so turning around and landing would not have been a problem.)

- On a VFR flight from the SFO area to Bishop (BIH), I encountered lower than expected ceilings ahead, over the Sierras. I called for a pop-up clearance, and ended up having to fly a much longer distance, and at higher altitudes, than I had planned. (That was the flight that caused me to buy an oxygen tank.)

This is just a sampling, but in summary, the most common reasons I have taken off VFR and picked up IFR while airborne have been weather and/or performance issues, not because I thought it would save me time.

So, off you go in your biz jet climbing at three or four times the climb gradient assumed on a diverse departure (which is just 200'/nm). Next, ATC reneges on their promise of a timely pickup at pattern altitude, so you need to pull back the power, slow or stop your climb to avoid the ceiling and bide your time at LESS than the assumed gradient. So, now you're using up the surplus altitude you gained and moving downrange from the airport at four miles a minute without even a sectional chart. The pressure mounts as you're trying to decide how far you can go before needing to do a 180 in the increasingly worsening visibility under the ceiling.

I've never flown a biz jet and I probably never will, but for the reasons you mention, in addition to the larger turning radius of a faster airplane, in order to take off VFR in one I would require even better weather than for the piston singles that I normally fly. If there were not room to comfortably and safely circle in VFR conditions while waiting for my clearance, I would not take off VFR.

Finally, ATC has your clearance, but before they can release it they want to know "Can you maintain terrain clearance below MIA?"

"What? Of course not, that's why I need an IFR clearance--so I can get higher."

Then the back and forth conversation ensues where they try to explain what "the question" means. BTDT.
That reinforces what I said earlier about needing more pilot training on the implications of the question (and the answer).

I like the question because I think that making sure everyone is on the same page about who is responsible for what is good for safety.
 
..."You can't answer the question until you get your routing", which may well be different from the one you requested...

As Velocity173 said, the controller should not be assigning a route below the MIA. That is enough as far as I am concerned, because once I have reached the MIA and am in radar contact, the controller will be free to direct me to where he/she needs me to be.
 
If one second, or even one minute, is going to make a difference, you should have picked up your clearance on the ground. I can remember controllers asking this question back in the late 80s or early 90s, so it's not a new procedure.
My recollection is that the question originated after I got my instrument rating, which was in 1992.
 
Depends on how long the delayed clearance is doesn't it? Sooner or later it's too long and having gotten it on ground is just hindsight. I hate this scolding, holier than thou attitude around here. Just because you know the magic words and are ok with "make work" procedures doesn't mean everybody else does. If this question makes sense to you, then you should just love to answer even more, like "We can't give you your IFR clearance until you specify your climb gradient." Or "Can you maintain MEA in icing conditions?"
I hope I'm not coming across as scolding or holier than thou. Speaking for myself, I'm just trying to explain the reasoning behind my go/no-go decisions, and why I like the question.
 
Some examples of situations in which I have gone for an airborne pickup are as follows: <snip>
Excellent planning, Richard! But it isn't different than what I'm saying because you had a place in mind where the pickup would occur. In your case, it did. Had it been delayed until after that point you'd have to make a tough decision that would get harder the longer it takes.



This is just a sampling, but in summary, the most common reasons I have taken off VFR and picked up IFR while airborne have been weather and/or performance issues, not because I thought it would save me time.
When your job is to save passengers' time and ATC is telling you they can accommodate you quicker and the weather appears to allow it using your above rationale, I bet you will.


If there were not room to comfortably and safely circle in VFR conditions while waiting for my clearance, I would not take off VFR.
Well, where do want to circle? Around the airport? Traffic. You obviously have good visibility, otherwise you'd have, reluctantly, waited it out. Wherever else you decide is probably close to or beyond the diverse gradient, so one place is as bad as another if you don't have VFR charts or digital maps with terrain.


That reinforces what I said earlier about needing more pilot training on the implications of the question (and the answer).

I like the question because I think that making sure everyone is on the same page about who is responsible for what is good for safety.
Do you think the FAA should get a weight and balance waiver before issuing your takeoff clearance? No! Everybody knows the pilot is responsible. Instrument pilots all know their responsibilities for terrain avoidance. Maybe the controllers are the ones who need the reminder, "Understand I'm cleared as filed, now don't muck with me until I tell you I'm good and ready!"

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
Excellent planning, Richard! But it isn't different than what I'm saying because you had a place in mind where the pickup would occur. In your case, it did. Had it been delayed until after that point you'd have to make a tough decision that would get harder the longer it takes.

I'm not seeing where there would have been any tough decisions. If I hadn't been able to get a clearance at Tahoe, there would have really been only one choice, and that would have been to go back to TVL, land, and wait for better weather. If I hadn't been able to get a clearance on any of the other flights, there were many places where I could have landed and filed for a departure from the ground.

When your job is to save passengers' time and ATC is telling you they can accommodate you quicker and the weather appears to allow it using your above rationale, I bet you will.

If I was in that line of work and ATC told me that, I would still not take off VFR if I thought the weather would not provide the opportunity to safely remain in VFR conditions in case there was a glitch. If the client/boss did not appreciate that level of commitment to safety, then I would find work elsewhere, because no job is worth dying for.

If you are in that line of work, I am not without sympathy for your predicament, and I'm not necessarily saying that the current system is the best way of dealing with it. I'm just describing the strategies I see for working within the current system. If this issue were covered in the syllabus for the instrument rating, maybe the question wouldn't be necessary. :dunno:

Well, where do want to circle? Around the airport? Traffic.

In all of the examples I listed, traffic was virtually nonexistent where I was, and in none of them would I have needed to circle an airport. Even if there had been traffic, see-and-avoid is a requirement on every VFR flight, so I'm not seeing the problem with the equipment I have flown. On the other hand, if you're flying jets, I can see how milling around below a ceiling could be dicey.

You obviously have good visibility, otherwise you'd have, reluctantly, waited it out. Wherever else you decide is probably close to or beyond the diverse gradient, so one place is as bad as another if you don't have VFR charts or digital maps with terrain.

I already said that I don't believe in taking off VFR without VFR charts. (They don't have to be paper.)

Do you think the FAA should get a weight and balance waiver before issuing your takeoff clearance? No! Everybody knows the pilot is responsible. Instrument pilots all know their responsibilities for terrain avoidance. Maybe the controllers are the ones who need the reminder, "Understand I'm cleared as filed, now don't muck with me until I tell you I'm good and ready!"

If instructors spent as much time teaching about pilots' terrain-and-obstruction-avoidance responsibilities as they do teaching weight-and-balance, maybe the question would not be needed. :dunno:
 
If instructors spent as much time teaching about pilots' terrain-and-obstruction-avoidance responsibilities as they do teaching weight-and-balance, maybe the question would not be needed. :dunno:
The controller is making sure the pilot knows the responsibility is on them (the pilot) in the situation where the question is asked. I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I like it. It clarifies the responsibilities for both sides.
 
If instructors spent as much time teaching about pilots' terrain-and-obstruction-avoidance responsibilities as they do teaching weight-and-balance, maybe the question would not be needed. :dunno:
I think the subject is covered very well. You're on your own until the controller says "Radar contact" and begins issuing navigational guidance (vectors).

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
I think the subject is covered very well. You're on your own until the controller says "Radar contact" and begins issuing navigational guidance (vectors).
I'm willing to take it on faith that YOU teach it very well! :)
 
Honestly, that's debatable. The above words aren't mine, they're straight out of the AIM, Par 5-2-8. Here's mine: http://www.avclicks.com/Flash2/Stairway_to_Heaven2/index.html

dtuuri
That's a well done lesson on rock avoidance during departure and living through it. If everyone who calls up already in the air requesting clearance just departed and is already complying with a DP, or complying with there own plan then yeah, no reason for ATC to not just say "cleared to" and get on with it. If that gets done in a timely matter and the pilots "plan," be it DP or roll your own didn't get interrupted somehow by having to remain VFR while waiting for the clearance then everything works fine. How can it not get done in a timely manner? Let's count the ways. I'll start it off with ya select the frequency for Approach/Center and you are greeted to a long winded exchange of transmissions already in progress and you can't get a word in edgewise as the bases are getting closer.
 
I'm not seeing where those words appear in that section of the AIM.
My emphasis--

5-2-8.c Who is responsible for obstacle clearance?
1. ...
2. ATC may assume responsibility...
(a) ...
(b) ...In all cases, the minimum 200 FPNM climb gradient is assumed unless a higher climb gradient is specified on the departure, and obstacle clearance is not provided by ATC until the controller begins to provide navigational guidance in the form of radar vectors.
NOTE−
As is always the case, when used by the controller during departure, the term “radar contact” should not be interpreted as relieving pilots of their responsibility to maintain appropriate terrain and obstruction clearance which may include flying the obstacle DP.

dtuuri
 
My emphasis--

5-2-8.c Who is responsible for obstacle clearance?
1. ...
2. ATC may assume responsibility...
(a) ...
(b) ...In all cases, the minimum 200 FPNM climb gradient is assumed unless a higher climb gradient is specified on the departure, and obstacle clearance is not provided by ATC until the controller begins to provide navigational guidance in the form of radar vectors.
NOTE−
As is always the case, when used by the controller during departure, the term “radar contact” should not be interpreted as relieving pilots of their responsibility to maintain appropriate terrain and obstruction clearance which may include flying the obstacle DP.

dtuuri
And, below MVA the controller doesn't really provide obstacle clearance unless he has a DVA.
 
My emphasis--

5-2-8.c Who is responsible for obstacle clearance?
1. ...
2. ATC may assume responsibility...
(a) ...
(b) ...In all cases, the minimum 200 FPNM climb gradient is assumed unless a higher climb gradient is specified on the departure, and obstacle clearance is not provided by ATC until the controller begins to provide navigational guidance in the form of radar vectors.
NOTE−
As is always the case, when used by the controller during departure, the term “radar contact” should not be interpreted as relieving pilots of their responsibility to maintain appropriate terrain and obstruction clearance which may include flying the obstacle DP.

dtuuri
If I was writing that I wouldn't have limited it to "in the form of radar vectors." Getting "via direct" [first fix] then....... could lead a pilot down the primrose path. Of course the solution to this is for the controller to not say "direct" and just leave it at "via [first fix or navaid]. Regardless what the exact procedures and phraseologies are, if the controller said "direct" and aluminum and rock meet, the FAA is gonna be pulling out the checkbook.
 
And, below MVA the controller doesn't really provide obstacle clearance unless he has a DVA.
Yup. Correct me if I'm wrong, DVA's are predicated on starting at the runway. Not popping up out yonder after departing and starting from some point in space
 
Back
Top