Boston == OverReaction

Take this freedom of expression to the extreme.

I should be able to walk into an airport, go through security, get on a plane and then announce "I have a bomb, and I'm going to blow this plane up"

IF I have complete freedom of expression.

In fact, I should be allowed to carry a bomb onto the airplane and blow it up IF I have complete freedom of expression.

However, someone has to draw the line somewhere.

Where that line is drawn, and by whom, is the issue at hand.

Right now, in the current state of affairs, world-wide, there is very little if any freedom of expression allowed in any airports.

You have to be a complete idiot to not be aware of the restrictions that exist today in airports.
 
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You have to be a complete idiot to not be aware of the restrictions that exist today in airports.

Which is why I have a tough time believing this girl's statement that it was "art."

It's also why we can substitute negligence (i.e., should have known better) for actual intent (i.e., did know better) in certain circumstances.
 
Which is why I have a tough time believing this girl's statement that it was "art."

It's also why we can substitute negligence (i.e., should have known better) for actual intent (i.e., did know better) in certain circumstances.

She was wearing a sweatshirt made to celebrate an electronics class. It had LEDs on a breadboard arranged in a star and a 9 volt battery to power the LEDs. She walked into the airport and asked about a flight she was there to meet.

She was barely inside the terminal. She walked out and was accosted by the cops.

So much for the hoax.
 
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She was wearing sweatshirt made to celebrate an electronics class. It had LEDs on a breadboard arranged in a star and a 9 volt battery to power the LEDs. She walked into the airport and asked about a flight she was there to meet.

She was barely inside the terminal. She walked out and was accosted by the cops.

So much for the hoax.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think this in any way qualifies as a hoax. To my knowledge, that is a felony. Meaning DOC time. Meaning a nasty Massachussetts state penitentiary, as compared to your friendly county jail. In no way is that deserved here, and if that charge sticks, it doesn't reflect well on the justice system.

It is disorderly conduct. She took an action, knowing that it was likely to cause a major disturbance (or she should have known it). That is NO different from a nutty football fan running onto the field and trying to tackle the ref after he made what the fan thought was a bad call.

Disorderly conduct charges are designed to give us incentives not to act in a manner that will cause unreasonable disturbance or inconvenience to others.

As far as an OGO charge goes, it's designed to give us an incentive not to distract cops from their duties - imagine that some whackjob had been trying to sneak a real bomb through security, and had been able to do so because the personnel were distracted by some BS.

If it was just pure negligence and stupidity on her part, that's fine. The charges are still justified - she'll have learned to think before doing something stupid again. And the fine might reimburse the public for what it had to spend because of her stupidity.
 
The secure zone of an airport has greater restrictions on it than other public places. This is well known, and if she'd tried to go through airport security to the gates, she certainly should have known better.

However, the rest of the airport should be no different than if she'd walked into a lecture hall at her alma mater - both have large numbers of innocent people, and both are public or (in the case of the school) semipublic places.

So, if she just walked into the airport, didn't attempt to go through the lines to the sterile area, and walked out (where she was accosted), that's a bad overreaction.
 
The secure zone of an airport has greater restrictions on it than other public places. This is well known, and if she'd tried to go through airport security to the gates, she certainly should have known better.

However, the rest of the airport should be no different than if she'd walked into a lecture hall at her alma mater - both have large numbers of innocent people, and both are public or (in the case of the school) semipublic places.

So, if she just walked into the airport, didn't attempt to go through the lines to the sterile area, and walked out (where she was accosted), that's a bad overreaction.

In theory, I'd love to agree with you.

In practicality, however, this girl had: 1) some kind of digital device with an electrical source (albeit something like a Lite-Brite); and 2) something that looked like an explosive (albeit grey play-dough). Regardless of actual threat, what that's supposed to look like at first glance? I think of myself as a "don't-tread-on-me-die-hard-libertarian," but this certainly was worthy of investigation.

Additionally, an airport is different from a lecture hall - an airport is an excellent target, for political, propaganda, and psychological purposes. If I'm looking to cause a ruckus, I'd rather blow up an airport than a lecture hall at a small college in Boston, or any college anywhere. Both are bad, but I think the airport is the more likely target of the two. Meaning security is correspondingly tighter.

That being said, was it worth more than 5-10 minutes of police questioning once they figured out that it was play-dough and a Lite-Brite? Heck no! Was it worth more than a written citation for disorderly conduct? Heck no!

The initial reaction was *probably* ok - we weren't there, so it's hard for us to say. This legal fallout of arrest and felony charges? I can see the arrest (on the fringe of reasonableness) but the felony charge is ridiculous - as a waste of public money if nothing else.

[edit:] Keep in mind that I'm assuming a hoax device is, in fact, a felony. It might not be. Still, it seems like overkill even if it is only a misdemeanor.
 
Here's the best reaction I've read. It's from a September 24, 2007 article in Wired Science by Brandon Keim:

Link to the full Wired Science Article by Brandon Keim

Simpson was later charged with disorderly conduct and possessing a hoax device, to which she pleaded not guilty, and released on bail. The police said Simpson was lucky that she'd followed their orders; one unexpected move, they said, and they'd have blown her away.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

What happened is so grossly wrong on so many levels that I hardly know where to begin. Since when did a circuit board on a sweatshirt look like a bomb? Since when did suicide bombers walk around with bombs on the outside of their clothing? If the people in charge of protecting us are stupid enough to think this, how hard would it be for real bombers to fool them? More importantly, since when was it okay to blow away someone who posed such an ambiguous threat?

Wow, looks just like a bomb.
cfa4827569_20070921device3.jpg
 
He neglected to mention the play-doh thing. If it were as simple as Keim described it, then it would indeed be nuts. The play-doh really raised the stakes, and that's where I think the criminal negligence comes into play. Just wearing the sweatshirt, ok fine, but she took it too far.

As did the police. Sadly, the days of common sense policing seem to have passed us by.
 
....

As did the police. Sadly, the days of common sense policing seem to have passed us by.

I won't argue that. I haven't seen where it says what the "post-discovery" reaction was - did they let her go immediately, or did they hold her a couple hours for "interrogation?" If I had to bet, I'd go with the latter. Which is wholly unreasonable, unless there was some kind of reason to suspect she was an actual terrorist or something along those lines.

Small investigation to figure out what was going on and to maybe give her a little taste of the major leagues - fine. Full-blown interrogation - waste of public money.
 
You can't hear a story about September 11th without hearing about Logan being the location where the airplanes took off from. Reason enough for Logan security and the MA State Police to react as they did? And haven't we been hearing for the last month that they expect another attack?
Really. She's damned lucky she didn't get hurt. This kind of stupid DESERVES jailtime.
 
Take this freedom of expression to the extreme.

I should be able to walk into an airport, go through security, get on a plane and then announce "I have a bomb, and I'm going to blow this plane up"

IF I have complete freedom of expression.

In fact, I should be allowed to carry a bomb onto the airplane and blow it up IF I have complete freedom of expression.

However, someone has to draw the line somewhere.

Where that line is drawn, and by whom, is the issue at hand.

Right now, in the current state of affairs, world-wide, there is very little if any freedom of expression allowed in any airports.

You have to be a complete idiot to not be aware of the restrictions that exist today in airports.

You example is a bit over the top. It's the same as going into a movie theater and yelling fire.

You are assuming her motive was to set off the cops. I'm assuming that she wore he favorite sweatshirt and went to meet her boyfreinds plane. Lets assume more about her motives: She likes the sweatshirt becuase it declares to the world she's in the MIT EE program and it lights up a star and she was playing with playdough becuase she was trying to quit smoking and needed something to do with her hands to keep from pulling out the cigs.

Obi Heed Kenobi said:
In practicality, however, this girl had: 1) some kind of digital device with an electrical source (albeit something like a Lite-Brite); and 2) something that looked like an explosive (albeit grey play-dough).

Please give me the source of the "grey" color of the play-dough... the article I saw gave no mention of color just like it didnt' say the writting on the back was hand written... I see people assuming a lot that is not in evidance. They did not report the color, but then if they reported the color was purple or blue then everyone would think the security over reacted.

Missa
 
I posted the following in response to a post on the AOPA boards about how if it was an "unintentional" breach of the peace, no charges are justified. I think it speaks to the problem of simply letting actions like this girl's slide.



A breach of the peace or OGO charge is exactly what is warranted here. It's a misdemeanor, and might even be a petty. Meaning that there's something like a $500 fine. It's an appropriate penalty, yet sends the message that we as a society won't tolerate this kind of crap.

Our system is not "complete liberty." Rather, it is "ordered liberty," meaning that while we have certain freedoms, there are also certain freedoms that we surrender to avoid complete chaos.

When did we stop teaching children what is right and wrong and instead started charging them with feloneys? Yes she was a collage student, but think back and remember how oblivouse and idelistic you were back then. If she had no intent and it was just a stupid moment what she needed was to get the **** scared out of her. (uh 5 police with semi auto wepons pointed at her) and a stearn... "You need to think about what you wear to an airport, if you do it agian you can expect to be arrested." Threat and it's likely she wouldn't do it agian.
 
When did we stop teaching children what is right and wrong and instead started charging them with feloneys? Yes she was a collage student, but think back and remember how oblivouse and idelistic you were back then. If she had no intent and it was just a stupid moment what she needed was to get the **** scared out of her. (uh 5 police with semi auto wepons pointed at her) and a stearn... "You need to think about what you wear to an airport, if you do it agian you can expect to be arrested." Threat and it's likely she wouldn't do it agian.

Well, I'll think back 5 years, and I realize that I would have thought it was stupid then. I would have thought it was stupid when I was 16 and I would have thought it was stupid when I was 6. I would have thought it was stupid before 2001, and I think it even stupider after 2001. To be frank, I've never been oblivious and idealistic. Not about the law.

Being oblivious and idealistic is no excuse for disrupting the "peace." The crime isn't for saying something, it isn't a punishment based on what someone is saying - it is punishment for being a royal pain in the *ss.

I've never said she should be charged with a felony. Everything I've said is to the contrary. I do, however, think a misdemeanor charge accompanied with a heavy fine is both justified and necessary.

As far as the grey play-dough, every article I've looked at has indicated it was grey. Doesn't mean it's true, but that seems to be the consensus right now. Even if it wasn't, that would be a handy-dandy trick to throw off the authorities.
 
Yes she was a collage student, but think back and remember how oblivouse and idelistic you were back then.
True. I am still probably a little idealistic and oblivious but I learned late in life to keep my mouth shut or express it in a non-confrontational way. It just makes things easier.

If she had no intent and it was just a stupid moment what she needed was to get the **** scared out of her. (uh 5 police with semi auto wepons pointed at her) and a stearn... "You need to think about what you wear to an airport, if you do it agian you can expect to be arrested." Threat and it's likely she wouldn't do it agian.
While I agree with you here, unfortunately I think everyone is highly into CYA mode these days. I'm not just talking about the police or the TSA. It permeates our culture. Everyone is afraid of what might happen if, so they go overboard. This started well before 9/11, although it escalated after that. If anything almost made me leave aviation it was all the "security" measures that were implemented after 9/11. I thought most of them were stupid and worthless and I still do. However, I have learned to live with them. :dunno:
 
As far as the grey play-dough, every article I've looked at has indicated it was grey. Doesn't mean it's true, but that seems to be the consensus right now. Even if it wasn't, that would be a handy-dandy trick to throw off the authorities.

Can you share a link to an artical that said that. The orignal artical that I posted did not say grey. If the play dough was grey... then there might be somehting to the idea that she was doing it intentionaly, which should be punished.

Well, I'll think back 5 years, and I realize that I would have thought it was stupid then. I would have thought it was stupid when I was 16 and I would have thought it was stupid when I was 6. I would have thought it was stupid before 2001, and I think it even stupider after 2001. To be frank, I've never been oblivious and idealistic. Not about the law.

Being oblivious and idealistic is no excuse for disrupting the "peace." The crime isn't for saying something, it isn't a punishment based on what someone is saying - it is punishment for being a royal pain in the *ss.

I've never said she should be charged with a felony. Everything I've said is to the contrary. I do, however, think a misdemeanor charge accompanied with a heavy fine is both justified and necessary.

Well then at 6 you must have been a lot "smarter" then I was. In collage I would have seen that shirt thought it was cool, asked her where she got it and how much. I also played with Play dough (the can on my keyring was purple, tho for a little while I had silly putty 'cause it could lift news print). It wouldn't even have crossed my mind that someone would be able to look at that shirt and think for a moment it was a bomb. Now, maybe... then never. But then agian I really thought everyone could think like I could and would never be naive enoungh to think it was a bomb. As I gained more experiance, my navity that most people could think the way I did changed. The objects on her shirt are things an EE student plays with everyday, they are everyday items... so why would she think they looked like a bomb to other people? Experiance teaches us that other people think differently and you need to compensate, but as a freshman/sophmore in collage, I wasn't there yet.

If she mean to disrupt the peace, sure she deserves to be fined/punished. If she was just wearing her cool sweatshirt that she wears all the time around campus without incident... what would give her any thought that it might disrupt the peace.

And if you really thing she need to be PUNISHED because she was being oblivouse that day instead of being taught that she needs to give some more for thought.... I really like to look into your past for any stupid little thing you've done that might be constude diffrently and see how much punshishmet can be metered out. Since your name is not God, I'm sure I can find something... no one can claim to be perfect.
 
You can't hear a story about September 11th without hearing about Logan being the location where the airplanes took off from. Reason enough for Logan security and the MA State Police to react as they did? And haven't we been hearing for the last month that they expect another attack?
Really. She's damned lucky she didn't get hurt. This kind of stupid DESERVES jailtime.

Yeah. Because that wiley Osama is known for going right back to the same place anjd the same method for another try. :rolleyes:

I think they only happened to be at Logan because there was an westbound flight at the right time.
 
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Well, I tend to gauge government oppression by the level to which it limits freedoms. If what we've learned from this incident is that an honest, tax paying, US citizen can't walk into a US airport wearing a shirt with a peculiar, unidentifiable, piece of electronics with lots of wires and flashing lights, while handling a piece of unidentifiable putty, well, I think it's safe to say that this doesn't constrict the pursuit of happiness thing all that much.

By the way, I was willing to accept that a very idiotic dork might walk into an airport wearing a breadboard on her shirt, but when you combine that with a hand full of putty, the odds of this being wholly naive and unintentional seems fairly remote to me.
-harry
 
While I agree with you here, unfortunately I think everyone is highly into CYA mode these days. I'm not just talking about the police or the TSA. It permeates our culture. Everyone is afraid of what might happen if, so they go overboard. This started well before 9/11, although it escalated after that. If anything almost made me leave aviation it was all the "security" measures that were implemented after 9/11. I thought most of them were stupid and worthless and I still do. However, I have learned to live with them. :dunno:

With a trend to "you must conform, or else".... I agree with you.

What we have done is lose our individuality.
 
You example is a bit over the top. It's the same as going into a movie theater and yelling fire.

You are assuming her motive was to set off the cops. I'm assuming that she wore he favorite sweatshirt and went to meet her boyfreinds plane. Lets assume more about her motives: She likes the sweatshirt becuase it declares to the world she's in the MIT EE program and it lights up a star and she was playing with playdough becuase she was trying to quit smoking and needed something to do with her hands to keep from pulling out the cigs.



Please give me the source of the "grey" color of the play-dough... the article I saw gave no mention of color just like it didnt' say the writting on the back was hand written... I see people assuming a lot that is not in evidance. They did not report the color, but then if they reported the color was purple or blue then everyone would think the security over reacted.

Missa

And like most of these stories, and this one where "the rest of the story" is already coming out, we'll hear that that there was no play dough or it was a wadded up piece of kleenex.
 
Can you share a link to an artical that said that. The orignal artical that I posted did not say grey. If the play dough was grey... then there might be somehting to the idea that she was doing it intentionaly, which should be punished.

I'll have to do some browsing at lunch.

Well then at 6 you must have been a lot "smarter" then I was. In collage I would have seen that shirt thought it was cool, asked her where she got it and how much. I also played with Play dough (the can on my keyring was purple, tho for a little while I had silly putty 'cause it could lift news print). It wouldn't even have crossed my mind that someone would be able to look at that shirt and think for a moment it was a bomb. Now, maybe... then never. But then agian I really thought everyone could think like I could and would never be naive enoungh to think it was a bomb. As I gained more experiance, my navity that most people could think the way I did changed. The objects on her shirt are things an EE student plays with everyday, they are everyday items... so why would she think they looked like a bomb to other people? Experiance teaches us that other people think differently and you need to compensate, but as a freshman/sophmore in collage, I wasn't there yet.

If she mean to disrupt the peace, sure she deserves to be fined/punished. If she was just wearing her cool sweatshirt that she wears all the time around campus without incident... what would give her any thought that it might disrupt the peace.

And if you really thing she need to be PUNISHED because she was being oblivouse that day instead of being taught that she needs to give some more for thought.... I really like to look into your past for any stupid little thing you've done that might be constude diffrently and see how much punshishmet can be metered out. Since your name is not God, I'm sure I can find something... no one can claim to be perfect.

It's not so much of a matter of me being smarter - I've just been well-acquainted with the law for a long time. I've known what's acceptable and what's not for a long, long time. That is, quite frankly, a big part of being a member of society.

Naivete is not an excuse - we're all members of society, and we're expect to comply with social norms. I think a commonly accepted norm is that you don't walk into an area commonly though of as "volatile" and act threatening. To do so is the very essence of disorderly conduct.

Intent doesn't really matter that much - it's more a question of what the reasonable person would do, and what would disturb a reasonable person. Again, it's not the activity itself being punished. Instead, it's that activity's potential for disruption.

As far as my past goes, I've thought it over and haven't really found much where I could be charged with disorderly conduct. A few other things, for sure. But disorderly conduct? No - my antics were confined to appropriate arenas. The biggest difference? I wasn't stupid enough to get caught - and with typical kid-type antics, if you're dumb enough to get caught it generally indicates two things: 1) that you're acting in a manner that is patently unreasonable; and 2) you deserve the punishment for it.
 
Take this freedom of expression to the extreme.

I should be able to walk into an airport, go through security, get on a plane and then announce "I have a bomb, and I'm going to blow this plane up"

IF I have complete freedom of expression...

You do. But remember, everyone else also has the similar freedom. As such, when the law shoves their "freedom of expression", in the form of their firearms, into your body, triggers on the finger, please remember they're expressing theirs. (edited because the original sounded wrong and somewhat confrontational - way NOT the intent. S)

Now... My feelings are once the situation was declared a non-situation, all should have went back to normal, and not some stoked-up padded-out brouhaha continuing on where the woman was felonized, etc. True, she wasn't the smartest cookie in the bunch, but once she was made to realize the silliness of the result of her "exercise" of free speech (via the patented Uzi Method) and the way she was exercising that freedom, to the definite restriction of other's right to similar rights, she should have been released.

And who knows, she may have been trying to commit "suicide by cop", sadly not all that uuncommon. I know the pressures of Ivy Leauge colleges *have* driven some to end it all. Or... she may well have been seeing what she could get away with, for someone lesss than honorable.

One thing is for certain - someone who would want to try something like this will be taking notes on this incident. You betcha. Better mix that C4 (or Semtek or whatever) with purple plasticine to make it look harmless...

Or worse, what if she *was* an idealistic mole who was testing resources *for* someone with less than honorable intentions. Sure, she was a good American kid, but so was Tim McVeigh... until he cracked.

Have a nice day...

:blowingkisses: Sus
 
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I'll have to do some browsing at lunch.



It's not so much of a matter of me being smarter - I've just been well-acquainted with the law for a long time. I've known what's acceptable and what's not for a long, long time. That is, quite frankly, a big part of being a member of society.

Naivete is not an excuse - we're all members of society, and we're expect to comply with social norms. I think a commonly accepted norm is that you don't walk into an area commonly though of as "volatile" and act threatening. To do so is the very essence of disorderly conduct.

Intent doesn't really matter that much - it's more a question of what the reasonable person would do, and what would disturb a reasonable person. Again, it's not the activity itself being punished. Instead, it's that activity's potential for disruption.

As far as my past goes, I've thought it over and haven't really found much where I could be charged with disorderly conduct. A few other things, for sure. But disorderly conduct? No - my antics were confined to appropriate arenas. The biggest difference? I wasn't stupid enough to get caught - and with typical kid-type antics, if you're dumb enough to get caught it generally indicates two things: 1) that you're acting in a manner that is patently unreasonable; and 2) you deserve the punishment for it.

Ok, so what law did she break? I wan't aware of a law conserning what I can and can not wear at or 'near' an airport. What you are ass-u-me-ing is that she would have some reason to belive that she was wearing what could be deamed as a 'bomb'. To me she was wearing a sweatshirt with a breadbord, lights and wires. Everyday common items to me and since she is an MIT EE student her as well. She probally bought the Shirt on campus and wears it there on a reagular basis and no one accuses her of wearing a 'bomb'. So would that re-inforce that the social norm was that the shirt was ok? Yes. Would that lead her to believe that a reasonable person would think her shirt is a bomb? I think not. How was she 'threating'? She asked if a plane was there yet and walked away. What past experiance would lead her to belive that her sweatshirt was threating? I really don't think, basied on what I have read so far that what she did was acting in a patently unreasonable manor.
In fact given the above supposition she could have been action in a compleately reasonable mannor.
 
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As for the secured area comment, a terrorist attacks to create terror and panic. What better place than the crowded terminal BEFORE one enters the secured area. Lots of people crowded tight, no security, just BOOM and lots and lots of dead people.

Excellent point!! The "Wasn't even approaching the secured area" argument is completely invalid. Remember the fire fight in the Lax terminal a few years ago or the terrorists driving an SUV into the Glasgow terminal last summer just to name a couple of incidents? Neither happened in the "Secured Area"

The onsite officers acted appropriately. You can't take the chance with the safety of hundreds of people at stake. Actions like this student took are not only stupid, they cost all of us safety and security by forcing law enforcement personnel to expend time and money investigating the validity of the threat. She should be charged appropriately.

As someone who flies in and out of KBOS regularly, I am happy that the police are vigilant, even if it might have temporarily curtailed some idiots freedom of expression.

Mitch
 
Ok, so what law did she break? I wan't aware of a law conserning what I can and can not wear at or 'near' an airport. What you are ass-u-me-ing is that she would have some reason to belive that she was wearing what could be deamed as a 'bomb'. To me she was wearing a sweatshirt with a breadbord, lights and wires. Everyday common items to me and since she is an MIT EE student her as well. She probally bought the Shirt on campus and wears it there on a reagular basis and no one accuses her of wearing a 'bomb'. So would that re-inforce that the social norm was that the shirt was ok? Yes. Would that lead her to believe that a reasonable person would think her shirt is a bomb? I think not. How was she 'threating'? She asked if a plane was there yet and walked away. What past experiance would lead her to belive that her sweatshirt was threating? I really don't think, basied on what I have read so far that what she did was acting in a patently unreasonable manor.
In fact given the above supposition she could have been action in a compleately reasonable mannor.

I can't tell you what the law is in Mass., but I can tell you that for most disorderly conduct laws, the focus is not on whether the defendant was doing what is normal for him/her.

For instance, if it were, I could walk through a mall nekked and then claim it was normal for me to do so because maybe I'm a nudist. Or I could light a fire in the middle of Rt. 1 after Maryland won the basketball championship and claim it was normal for me to want to celebrate.

Instead, the focus is on whether you disturbed the "peace," meaning public order. The question isn't whether it is reasonable to you to be doing what you're doing. Rather, the question is whether what you are doing, regardless of what it is, is disturbing public order. Running into an airport with something that could *reasonably* be mistaken for a bomb is certainly disturbing public order.

Mental states for these crimes differ. In some places, you might have to do it with the intent to disturb the public. In some places, you might have to do it while knowing that it would disturb the public, but without actually meaning to disturb the public (that's somewhat rare, because if you know it will, you usually intend to do it also). In some places, you might have to act recklessly - meaning that you're aware of the substantial chance of public disturbance, but do it anyway. In some places, you might have to act negligently - meaning that even if you don't know any of the above, you ought to. And finally, in some places, there is no "mental state" - it is enough to support a conviction that you did disturb public order, and it is irrelevant if you meant to or not (called "strict liability," kind of like a DUI - regardless if you meant to do it, you did do it).

[edit:] These mental states are best explained with this example. I have a gun and am shooting. I point it at a guy's head and pull the trigger, and I mean to kill him - that's intentional. I point it at a guy's head and pull the trigger, but I'm not trying to kill him - that's knowing (and note why it's relatively rare to actually see it). I point the trigger at the guy's leg, intending to wound him, but hit the femoral artery and it kills him - that's reckless, because of my disregard for the very real possibility of death. I'm out shooting in the woods and don't check to see if there's a backpacker where the bullets are landing, and I hit and kill someone - that's negligent, because while I didn't mean to kill him, I should have known better than to do that. Finally, I'm out shooting and take every precaution that I possibly can to avoid harm to anyone and anything, but my bullet still hits and kills someone - if I'm found guilty of something, it would be strict liability, because what I meant to do does not matter.[end edit]

I don't know what Mass's law says - but if it's anything less "knowingly," this is a guaranteed conviction. Just because something might have been "normal" for this girl, which I don't believe for a second, doesn't make it acceptable for society.

What it comes down to is that our laws deem it more important for society to be able to function without interruption than it is for some stupid girl to be able to interrupt the functioning of society because she has a statement to make.
 
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Instead, the focus is on whether you disturbed the "peace," meaning public order. The question isn't whether it is reasonable to you to be doing what you're doing. Rather, the question is whether what you are doing, regardless of what it is, is disturbing public order. Running into an airport with something that could *reasonably* be mistaken for a bomb is certainly disturbing public order.

I don't know what Mass's law says - but if it's anything less "knowingly," this is a guaranteed conviction. Just because something might have been "normal" for this girl, which I don't believe for a second, doesn't make it acceptable for society.

What it comes down to is that our laws deem it more important for society to be able to function without interruption than it is for some stupid girl to be able to interrupt the functioning of society because she has a statement to make.

Ok, so the question is: would it be reasonable for her to think someone could *reasonably* mistake her sweatshirt for a bomb.

So, if I wear a sweatshirt around and about MIT in public, passing security and police and other people for oh say 4-5 months and no one says anything about it, would it be reasonable to think that if I go someplace else that someone might mistake it for a bomb?

I don't think it reasonable to ass-u-me that the thought would have even crossed her mind that someone could even think that. Is it right to hold her accountable and punish her for what she had no reason to suppose would make a disturbance based on previous experiance?
 
As for the secured area comment, a terrorist attacks to create terror and panic. What better place than the crowded terminal BEFORE one enters the secured area. Lots of people crowded tight, no security, just BOOM and lots and lots of dead people.[\quote]

Excellent point!! The "Wasn't even approaching the secured area" argument is completely invalid. Remember the fire fight in the Lax terminal a few years ago or the terrorists driving an SUV into the Glasgow terminal last summer just to name a couple of incidents? Neither happened in the "Secured Area"

The onsite officers acted appropriately. You can't take the chance with the safety of hundreds of people at stake. Actions like this student took are not only stupid, they cost all of us safety and security by forcing law enforcement personnel to expend time and money investigating the validity of the threat. She should be charged appropriately.

As someone who flies in and out of KBOS regularly, I am happy that the police are vigilant, even if it might have temporarily curtailed some idiots freedom of expression.

Mitch

And how would this be diffrent then an MIT lecture hall. Lets go kill 100 or so bright young rich kids who's parents will go balistic! Probally an even better target then the unsecured section of a random airport. If she has been wandering around MIT with the sweatshirt on why would she think it's not ok to wear elsewhere?
 
Ok, so the question is: would it be reasonable for her to think someone could *reasonably* mistake her sweatshirt for a bomb.

So, if I wear a sweatshirt around and about MIT in public, passing security and police and other people for oh say 4-5 months and no one says anything about it, would it be reasonable to think that if I go someplace else that someone might mistake it for a bomb?

I don't think it reasonable to ass-u-me that the thought would have even crossed her mind that someone could even think that. Is it right to hold her accountable and punish her for what she had no reason to suppose would make a disturbance based on previous experiance?

I understand what you're saying, but unless Massachussetts has some kind of weird law, the focus isn't really on her. I don't think, in the eyes of the law, that what she thinks is reasonable is the determining issue. Rather, it's what would disturb the peace of a reasonable public.

Without regard to all of the various types of intents I listed earlier, the only question is likely: Did she disturb public order in the particular environment she was in?

As applied here, the question will most likely be: by walking into an airport with what could be a bomb, did she disturb the public's peace?

It doesn't matter if it's acceptable in her group at MIT, or if it's normal there. The question is whether that is acceptable in an airport.

Just for the record - I'm no expert in public conduct laws. So I could be entirely wrong on this. But in my experience, the focus of most public order laws is on the public, not on the individual.
 
I will say this, until this story I had no freaking idea what a "breadboard" is and I do believe I have fairly well educated. Electronics and such just NEVER interested me.

Thus the crux of you question Missa is that, yes, for the average reasonable Joe who has NO IDEA what the hell it was she was wearing, she was in the wrong. No different than other normal college antics, whether they be by Profs or Stu's, that seem "OK" in the ivory towers of academia and fail miserably in the real world.

Again...your focus is that it looks like "normal electronic stuff"...but most people have NOT seen that stuff and have no freaking clue with it is.
 
I will say this, until this story I had no freaking idea what a "breadboard" is and I do believe I have fairly well educated. Electronics and such just NEVER interested me.

Thus the crux of you question Missa is that, yes, for the average reasonable Joe who has NO IDEA what the hell it was she was wearing, she was in the wrong. No different than other normal college antics, whether they be by Profs or Stu's, that seem "OK" in the ivory towers of academia and fail miserably in the real world.

Again...your focus is that it looks like "normal electronic stuff"...but most people have NOT seen that stuff and have no freaking clue with it is.

By this logic, little planes should be banned because they scare people. After all, most people in the US would never understand why we fly, nor would they go up in them. All they know is that planes crash.
 
Little planes scare me. But not as much as black helicopters! :eek:
 
Certain Bostonians are easily frightened: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/06/18/flyover_jangles_nerves/

I can now understand the phrase, "Banned in Boston" and the mentality that brought it about.

It's ironic that Lexington and Concord are nearby.

No, it's not. Try spending some time in a 50 story high rise and think about it. I know I did when I worked in that very same tower.

Very few people even understand what general aviation is, let alone a airshow formation flying around city. They freak out, because they do not want to be the ones left in a building a la 9/11. That really scared a bunch of people.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
By this logic, little planes should be banned because they scare people. After all, most people in the US would never understand why we fly, nor would they go up in them. All they know is that planes crash.

Bill,

I see it a different way - not that they should be banned (by the logic extention above) - but, that they don't belong in certain areas. Certainly, as much as we all detest the powerplant TFR's, if you were walking along and saw some plane circling around a power plant, you may think "Huh..." (unless you'd think "He must be practicing turns about a point!" ;) )

The fact of the matter is, for me, this girl went into an area where people have very little humor. It's not normal to have wires and a breadboard, and blinking lights, all over the front of your shirt. Add a little putty in the hand (as to the points before, who here has seen plastic explosive of any kind? I sure as hell haven't), and with any appearence profiling, and someone's risk detector is going to go off.

This has been going on since hijackings and airplane bombings become "commonplace", and it I don't see it getting better any time soon. At the end of the day, a lot of what we see in the airports is security theatre, but that coupled with actual security measures (hopefully) prevents bad things from happening.

In a way, the above message can be construed as defeatist. It is not, and that is not my intent. On some level, you have to have common sense. This woman did not (and, speaking as someone who has spent a good deal of time at MIT, very few MIT students possess) display it in an appropriate manner, and she is being treated accordingly.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
And how would this be diffrent then an MIT lecture hall. Lets go kill 100 or so bright young rich kids who's parents will go balistic! Probally an even better target then the unsecured section of a random airport. If she has been wandering around MIT with the sweatshirt on why would she think it's not ok to wear elsewhere?

You have to consider your audience. Saying an MIT lecture hall is the same as strolling around the airport isn't a fair comparison. There are a lot of things we did on the rugby field in college that I think are felonies in any other place.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
By this logic, little planes should be banned because they scare people. After all, most people in the US would never understand why we fly, nor would they go up in them. All they know is that planes crash.

Logic is not linear...if you cannot understand the nuanced degrees of understanding of why THIS instance was a bad, bad, bad decision on the part of young woman and why the officers reacted the way they did, well then I guess there is no point trying to show you. :dunno:
 
Logic is not linear...if you cannot understand the nuanced degrees of understanding of why THIS instance was a bad, bad, bad decision on the part of young woman and why the officers reacted the way they did, well then I guess there is no point trying to show you. :dunno:

Look, I'll agree that it wasn't smart on her part. The reaction of the cops was over the top, given what little I know of the incident.

At the risk of sending this into Spin Zone, between the two political parties, we have coddled the nation into thinking that life should be risk-free, and that only the strictest form of enforcement will do. One party wants folks to believe that government is be-all-and-end-all, with everything flowing from the government, the other party exploits that in the name of "law and order". Boston cops and Massport had a bad reputation long before 9/11. TSAs new "SPOT" program is even worse. Someone on another board referred to them as the "face police."

I want our country back.
 
There is a time and place for everything. Playing with toy guns is fine, playing with toy guns in a bank is not. Wiring up a laughable "bomb" and carrying playdoh is fine, goofing around with that in an airport is not.

I've gotta side with Missa and Mike on this one. She had no criminal intentions of any sort, nor did she act in any kind of agressive manner. I can't completely fault the officers for checking her out, but I can't see any basis for an arrest. She was wearing some flashing LEDs which while they might be unusual, are not dangerous in any way. I can't see how anyone can think there was a "hoax threat" here either. Such an act would require an intent to fool someone into thinking there was a real threat, and that's pretty clearly not the case here.

The official reaction was no doubt more the result of said official's Hollywood based perception of what a bomb looks like. If anything this episode points out how poorly trained the officers were WRT potential threats.

BTW, I'm especially incensed by the statement one of the arresting officers made: "She's lucky to be in a cell as opposed to the morgue."

If many of you truly think it would be OK to shoot some innocent coed because she was wearing a few flashing LEDs then the terrorists have indeed won.
 
I will say this, until this story I had no freaking idea what a "breadboard" is and I do believe I have fairly well educated. Electronics and such just NEVER interested me.

Thus the crux of you question Missa is that, yes, for the average reasonable Joe who has NO IDEA what the hell it was she was wearing, she was in the wrong. No different than other normal college antics, whether they be by Profs or Stu's, that seem "OK" in the ivory towers of academia and fail miserably in the real world.

Again...your focus is that it looks like "normal electronic stuff"...but most people have NOT seen that stuff and have no freaking clue with it is.


So from your perspective, if something isn't so common as to be widely understood by the general public, it's OK to arrest someone for wearing or carrying it in an otherwise innocent manner? If the majority of the people of this country feel that way, I may have to find another place to live.
 
...
If many of you truly think it would be OK to shoot some innocent coed because she was wearing a few flashing LEDs then the terrorists have indeed won.

And carrying play-dough, which can probably be mistaken for an explosive.

How have the terrorists have won? If you're doing something that looks suspicious to a reasonable person, you're going to get taken to task for it - that's been our system since Terry v. Ohio in the 60's.

If you're doing something where it looks to a reasonable person like you're carrying a bomb, is it unjustified to have guns pulled on you? I don't think so.

Is it unjustified to be charged with possessing a hoax device in a situation like this? Most likely, yes. Unless she really did mean for this to happen.

Is it unjustified for her to be charged with disorderly conduct? Probably not. The First Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to disrupt other people.
 
So from your perspective, if something isn't so common as to be widely understood by the general public, it's OK to arrest someone for wearing or carrying it in an otherwise innocent manner? If the majority of the people of this country feel that way, I may have to find another place to live.

If it's something that looks threatening, what's wrong with that?

By your theory, I could carry paper towel rolls wrapped in brown paper and labeled as TNT into a school along with a pack of matches, walk up to the principal's office, scare the living *hit out of the secretary, whenever I wanted.
 
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