Annual inspection: why is it done in a single shop?

NoHeat

NoHeat

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Since the outcome of an annual inspection consists of three different stickers (airframe, engine, prop), is there any reason all three must be done by the same shop?

As an alternative, could an owner get the engine inspected in one shop, the airframe in a second shop, and the prop in a third?
 
GlennAB1 said:
Since "an annual" inspection consists of inspecting the entire aircraft, whom would sign off the annual?
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The individual who signs off on each of the components. There is no requirement that I know of that the same individual has to do all three.

Three logbooks, three signatures.
 
Each of the three stickers says it was done as an annual inspection, and each sticker is signed. So it kind of looks like three separate inspections.

What am I missing? Is there something about one sticker's signature that elevates it over the other two?
 
NoHeat said:
Since the outcome of an annual inspection consists of three different stickers (airframe, engine, prop), is there any reason all three must be done by the same shop?

As an alternative, could an owner get the engine inspected in one shop, the airframe in a second shop, and the prop in a third?
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It does NOT require three different stickers. The annual inspection is done on the AIRPLANE, and is generally signed off in the airframe logbook. The engine and prop stickers are a courtesy that is not required. Besides, you sign off the engine and prop for a 100 hour inspection at the annual if that is what the IA wants to do, not an annual.

Jim
 
So Jim, could it not be done the way I suggested? I have always seen the sign off in the individual logbooks.
 
So, you're asking an IA to modify his normal checklist and make a custom sign off in the logbook, at a discounted price of course, good luck finding an IA. I bet Tom will say he'll do it just to disagree... LOL
 
Would not the IA signing off the annual in the airframe log be on the hook for inspections done on the other two items? (Not too many who would be keen on that, I'd bet.)
 
The annual is a single, comprehensive inspection of the entire aircraft. The A&P w/ia inspects the entire aircraft and cannot delegate portions of the inspection to others to complete.
 
Again, whom makes this logbook entry?:

if the aircraft is found to be airworthy and approved for return to service, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
 
GlennAB1 said:
So, you're asking an IA to modify his normal checklist and make a custom sign off in the logbook, at a discounted price of course, good luck finding an IA. I bet Tom will say he'll do it just to disagree... LOL
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Who said anything about a discount?
 
We usually get one sticker every year and it goes in the airframe logbook. Sometimes the AI hand writes stuff he wants to write in the other logbooks like the engine compression numbers. I doubt if we asked he would have any problem making three stickers, but we don't, there's no need unless there's an AD or something they'd like to keep in the engine log or prop log, for whatever reason. The logs as a whole describe the condition of the aircraft, not just one book. They stay together.
 
NoHeat said:
Since the outcome of an annual inspection consists of three different stickers (airframe, engine, prop), is there any reason all three must be done by the same shop?

As an alternative, could an owner get the engine inspected in one shop, the airframe in a second shop, and the prop in a third?
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91.409 say the aircraft must be annualed, so only the aircraft maintenance record get the annual sign off, not engine or the prop.
 
denverpilot said:
We usually get one sticker every year and it goes in the airframe logbook. Sometimes the AI hand writes stuff he wants to write in the other logbooks like the engine compression numbers. I doubt if we asked he would have any problem making three stickers, but we don't, there's no need unless there's an AD or something they'd like to keep in the engine log or prop log, for whatever reason. The logs as a whole describe the condition of the aircraft, not just one book. They stay together.
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repairs etc are placed in the appropriate records, = 43.5
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I would happily pay for the work done.

But it is sort of a moot point if an annual isn't allowed to be done that way.
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Read 43-15 and tell me how any inspector can comply with an annual without the aircraft being fully assembled when the annual inspection is complete.
 
Tom-D said:
Read 43-15
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Specifically: (c) Annual and 100-hour inspections. (1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Specifically: (c) Annual and 100-hour inspections. (1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section.
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But where does it say that one inspector must do the whole inspection ? and if one inspector quits and another picks up where the other stopped how must it be entered. Show us the reg..
 
I was under the impression that an A&P can conduct an annual so long as an A&P IA supervises and signs it off. Is that incorrect?
 
Tom-D said:
But where does it say that one inspector must do the whole inspection ? and if one inspector quits and another picks up where the other stopped how must it be entered. Show us the reg..
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I'm surprised you didn't spring 43.17 on us again.... lol

"(1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section."

Where does it say "Each person performing part of an annual or 100-hour inspection"?

I think someone's wanting to turn the annual into a progressive inspection.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'm surprised you didn't spring 43.17 on us again.... lol

"(1) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall use a checklist while performing the inspection. The checklist may be of the person's own design, one provided by the manufacturer of the equipment being inspected or one obtained from another source. This checklist must include the scope and detail of the items contained in appendix D to this part and paragraph (b) of this section."

Where does it say "Each person performing part of an annual or 100-hour inspection"?

I think someone's wanting to turn the annual into a progressive inspection.
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thinking wrong again :
I'm surprised you couldn't supply the answer to my question.
plus,, why does it matter who does the annual if they qualify under the 43.17?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Oh...so now we are supervising inspection? o_O
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can not happen legally.
No where does it say the inspector must do the maintenance required to INSPECT.
for example the non IA can remove the wheels and brakes for the inspection of them. The A&P-IA can set in the aircraft while the owner preforms the engine run.
 
Harold Rutila said:
I was under the impression that an A&P can conduct an annual so long as an A&P IA supervises and signs it off. Is that incorrect?
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Kind of, in the large FBOs the DOM is directed to sign the WO that says they did the annual.
Having never worked the large FBO I do not know how involved the DOM must be to do that.
 
See as Glen couldn't find it,,
read FAR 43.11 (a) 1 thru 7.
 
Tom-D said:
See as Glen couldn't find it,,
read FAR 43.11 (a) 1 thru 7.
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You're so well versed in the FAR's, I was hoping to not have to explain it. I figured you'd know these posts contained quotes/text from 43.11:

GlennAB1 said:
if the aircraft is found to be airworthy and approved for return to service, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
Click to expand...

GlennAB1 said:
I think someone's wanting to turn the annual into a progressive inspection.
Click to expand...
 
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GlennAB1 said:
43.11:

if the aircraft is found to be airworthy and approved for return to service, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
Click to expand...

So do I understand this correctly: the three stickers are not all equal, even if they all mention an annual inspection. Instead, one sticker stands above the others, and that is the one that says "I certify ... inspected ... airworthy condition."

If that's so, would it still be possible for various shops to participate in the process of inspection, as long as the last of the shops involved writes the certification quoted above?

Here's an example scenario:
As the due date for the annual inspection draws near, an owner suspects his plane needs an overhaul of the engine (or prop). Rather than starting by taking the plane to his local shop, who would inspect the engine (or prop) and pull it off for shipping to a specialty shop, the owner instead starts out by going directly to the engine shop (or prop shop). The owner asks this engine shop do an annual inspection of the engine, and if discrepancies are found they are remedied right there, perhaps by doing an overhaul. The owner might choose a shop like Western Skyways or Zephyr that specializes in engines but also has a general airframe shop that can do the removal and installation as well as inspections. However, the owner doesn't want his airframe inspected at this shop that's mostly known for engine overhauls; he prefers his local shop because it specializes in his particular airframe. So, after the engine shop is done with its work and offers some kind of certification that the engine has been inspected and is airworthy, the owner flies or tows the plane to his favorite airframe shop where the remainder of the annual inspection will be done. That final shop renders the final certification that the plane has been inspected and is airworthy.

Here's the question: in rendering that certification, could the final shop rely on the engine shop's inspection (which was made after installation of the newly overhauled engine at the location of the engine shop), or must the final shop carry out its own inspection of the new engine by cutting up its oil filter and testing its compression, etc.?
 
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Valid question (s). Would it be fraudulent for an individual to sign for work/inspections they did not do, nor take part in?

Where I work, when we do an engine change while performing a heavy maintenance visit (B check) the heavy maintenance visit work cards are still required to be accomplished on the new engine.
 
NoHeat said:
So do I understand this correctly: the three stickers are not all equal, even if they all mention an annual inspection. Instead, one sticker stands above the others, and that is the one that says "I certify ... inspected ... airworthy condition."

If that's so, would it still be possible for various shops to participate in the process of inspection, as long as the last of the shops involved writes the certification quoted above?

Here's an example scenario:
As the due date for the annual inspection draws near, an owner suspects his plane needs an overhaul of the engine (or prop). Rather than starting by taking the plane to his local shop, who would inspect the engine (or prop) and pull it off for shipping to a specialty shop, the owner instead starts out by going directly to the engine shop (or prop shop). The owner asks this engine shop do an annual inspection of the engine, and if discrepancies are found they are remedied right there, perhaps by doing an overhaul. The owner might choose a shop like Western Skyways or Zephyr that specializes in engines but also has a general airframe shop that can do the removal and installation as well as inspections. However, the owner doesn't want his airframe inspected at this shop that's mostly known for engine overhauls; he prefers his local shop because it specializes in his particular airframe. So, after the engine shop is done with its work and offers some kind of certification that the engine has been inspected and is airworthy, the owner flies or tows the plane to his favorite airframe shop where the remainder of the annual inspection will be done. That final shop renders the final certification that the plane has been inspected and is airworthy.

Here's the question: in rendering that certification, could the final shop rely on the engine shop's inspection (which was made after installation of the newly overhauled engine at the location of the engine shop), or must the final shop carry out its own inspection of the new engine by cutting up its oil filter and testing its compression, etc.?
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What part of the concept of an annual inspection being ONE comprehensive inspection of the entire aircraft by ONE IA who cannot legally delegate any portion of the annual inspection to someone else, regardless of the qualifications of that individual, do you not understand? Any maintenance, outside the inspection itself, can be accomplished by anyone legal to sign off the return to service or supervise the maintenance for which he signs the return to service. So it doesn't matter if Charles Taylor came back from the dead and inspected your motor and gave it a clean bill of health during an annual, the IA would still have to personally inspect the motor as part of the aircraft he's annualing. Sheesh! You can put a dozen stickers in your logbooks from a dozen "experts" but the guy doing the annual inspection has to do the entire inspection and sign the one sticker that counts documenting the aircraft has been annually inspected and found to be in an airworthy condition.
 
NoHeat said:
So do I understand this correctly: the three stickers are not all equal, even if they all mention an annual inspection. Instead, one sticker stands above the others, and that is the one that says "I certify ... inspected ... airworthy condition."
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And for the record, three stickers aren't required... no stickers are required.
 
Witmo said:
What part of the concept .... do you not understand? .... Sheesh!
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Your comment above was directed at me.

It seems that I've somehow disturbed you by starting a thread to ask a question.

And that's all I did -- ask a question. I believe that asking a question is a legitimate use of internet forums. It's an especially good practice, I believe, to start a thread to ask a question that might interest various readers, and one that has an answer that isn't obvious to everyone. I think my question qualifies for that -- not everybody knows the legalities and subtleties of every FAR -- I certainly don't, and so I asked the question.
 
NoHeat said:
So do I understand this correctly: the three stickers are not all equal, even if they all mention an annual inspection. Instead, one sticker stands above the others, and that is the one that says "I certify ... inspected ... airworthy condition."

If that's so, would it still be possible for various shops to participate in the process of inspection, as long as the last of the shops involved writes the certification quoted above?

Here's an example scenario:
As the due date for the annual inspection draws near, an owner suspects his plane needs an overhaul of the engine (or prop). Rather than starting by taking the plane to his local shop, who would inspect the engine (or prop) and pull it off for shipping to a specialty shop, the owner instead starts out by going directly to the engine shop (or prop shop). The owner asks this engine shop do an annual inspection of the engine, and if discrepancies are found they are remedied right there, perhaps by doing an overhaul. The owner might choose a shop like Western Skyways or Zephyr that specializes in engines but also has a general airframe shop that can do the removal and installation as well as inspections. However, the owner doesn't want his airframe inspected at this shop that's mostly known for engine overhauls; he prefers his local shop because it specializes in his particular airframe. So, after the engine shop is done with its work and offers some kind of certification that the engine has been inspected and is airworthy, the owner flies or tows the plane to his favorite airframe shop where the remainder of the annual inspection will be done. That final shop renders the final certification that the plane has been inspected and is airworthy.

Here's the question: in rendering that certification, could the final shop rely on the engine shop's inspection (which was made after installation of the newly overhauled engine at the location of the engine shop), or must the final shop carry out its own inspection of the new engine by cutting up its oil filter and testing its compression, etc.?
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I don't see what he hang up is with needing to call the initial stop at the engine shop anything other than a repair. Engine shop or prop shop mechanic simply does their part and logs it, and the annual is done somewhere else. They're not the same thing.

The AI who does the annual isn't going to sign off on anything they didn't inspect themselves.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So Jim, could it not be done the way I suggested? I have always seen the sign off in the individual logbooks.
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Of course it could. It could also be done in a separate logbook that says "Annual Inspections" and not even mention the airframe other than by N-Number. It could be done on the back of a napkin with a swizzle stick dipped in soy sauce. The regs are silent on how it should be recorded other than in the aircraft's permanent records. How the IA does it is strictly up to them. Their ticket is on the line.

But to be correct, there is one AIRCRAFT annual signature and traditionally it is in the AIRPLANE (or GLIDER) logbook. To be correct, the AIRFRAME, the ENGINE, and the PROPELLER have all gotten a 100 hour inspection and if that is how you want to log the engine and prop, so be it. Those entities did NOT get an annual inspection; they got a 100 hour which is the only way we have to log it.

This sounds like an Oshkosh forum ready-made for me ...
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Would not the IA signing off the annual in the airframe log be on the hook for inspections done on the other two items? (Not too many who would be keen on that, I'd bet.)
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Read how the annual is recorded. "I have inspected this aircraft and found it airworthy for an annual inspection" or words to that effect. Aircraft. Not airframe. Not powerplant. Not propeller, AIRCRAFT. That includes everything from the aft nav light to the spinner bolt and everything in between. You can have three shops do it if you want, airframe, engine, and propeller separately and the IA is going to replicate their work down to the last nut and bolt.

Jim
 
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