Soldier's KIA Family by 1st Class Passengers

[Velocity173]

I am currently deployed and both of these Soldiers were in my unit. It was a great loss and Soldiers are still being lost due to war. I talked to SSG Perry several days before the incident. I cannot comment much on the situation, but I would have no issue sitting in my seat several more minutes so a Gold Star family could either board or de-plane even if I was inconvenienced. I'm sure the announcement was not heard by all, but the gesture by the airline I agree with. Two minutes of waiting is a small sacrifice to make for this family who is currently grieving. I'm sure it's not the whole story, but is a small price to pay.

Sorry to hear. They attacked Bagram when I was there as well. Few injuries but no KIA.

Saw far too many flag draped caskets rolling down the flightline during my year there.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I disagree.

I don't believe that the people that booed this family were booing because of them transporting the remains of a soldier.

I believe they were booing because their plane was being delayed for someone who, for unknown reasons, has been labeled as more important than the other passengers . . .

Agreed, if I'm placing bets, it's that they used the term "Gold Star family" which doesn't mean anything to most people, and almost sounds like a "Double-secret platinum rewards frequent flyer". If they had made an announcement that the family would be released first out of respect for their fallen soldier, it would have taken a real a-hole to make a scene about it.

I never wait for anyone behind me to deplane. I never will. I don't boo the announcements. I help those in a hurry by collecting up my stuff and deplaning as quickly as possible.

My OPINION is that those announcements are usually only made to lull the occasional traveler into believing something is being done.

You sound like a bit of an entitled prick with that statement/outlook. It's not about getting them off any sooner, I don't think they are rushing to get where they are headed in that instance. It's about showing respect and humility towards the family members of a fallen soldier. It's a kind gesture to provide the least bit of gratitude and appreciation for what they've lost.

I don't travel the airlines weekly, but I do travel it 1-2 times per month and have done so for the better part of a decade. I, too, know about the alternative entry points at my most frequent airports, I know which side of the train to stand on at those terminals which utilize them, and I can breeze right past all of the travelers who are clogging the escalators when a simple walk around the corner yields an unused staircase or another bank of escalators. Big deal. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice a few minutes of my time to help a grieving family feel like they were put first. There's a time to be a frequent flyer/business traveler, and there's a time to show compassion and empathy.

 

[Everskyward]

I was on an airplane a few Veterans Days ago where they made the announcement to let the veterans off first. No, you didn't need to show any ID to prove you were a veteran, and there could have been fake "veterans" in the group that got off, but there was no booing, and many stayed in their seats, including me. I may travel on airlines a bit more than average, but I'm not usually in any hurry to get off.

 

[tawood]

Meh. Sounds to me like a weak rationalization to be a dick in public. Same argument people make when they treat you as a customer with contempt and annoyance in a retail or services environment, or perhaps say drop a toolbox on my wing and left me airplaneless going on months now and through the holidays, now facing six 6-hour one way trips in a car with a toddler. The whole "Hey, 5 dollars doesn't buy my undivided attention, so I do what I do, sorry I'm not sorry about your airplane nothing personal"

Don't like your job circumstances? Address it with the employer. Don't take it out on bystanders. Aka don't be a dick.

I would agree...being a dick in public seems to be a regular occurrence for some:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/legal-advice-needed.97063/

 

[James331]

I agree. Not sure the people booing actually knew what the delay was for. Couldn't imagine passengers showing that kind of disrespect for a Gold Star family.

There is something very wrong with the whole "gold star" family thing, I mean we don't have a special award/word for families of fire and EMS who died while directly saving American lives, it just seems like millitary marketing and I find it rather disgusting, your kid died for special interests, my heart goes out for their loss, but to try to give the family a "gold star" like a little kid who got a spelling bee right, it's wrong on many levels.


As per the flight in question, how do they know that others on that plane were not going to a funeral with a tight connecting flight? , so their sons death was more important than the guy in the next seat?


To me this feels more like marketing than compassion.

 

[mscard88]

Yep, that must be it James.

 

[Everskyward]

Nice try, but it started in WWI.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-gold-star-family-history-20160802-snap-story.html

 

[James331]

Yep, that must be it James.

What must be it?

Is there a cool titled word (which must be capsized even) for the families of the medevac crew that went down in NV while actively working to save another Americans life?

 

[N747JB]

It would have been great if the Flight Attendants could have gone row to row in the last 30 minutes of the flight while they were picking up the trash and spoke quickly to each row of passengers to tell them what was happening. Most people ignore announcements on airlines, they are hard to hear and understand, especially if you are wearing headphones. I have no issue sitting an extra minute or two.

 

[jordane93]

Wouldn't have bothered me at all.

 

[Velocity173]

There is something very wrong with the whole "gold star" family thing, I mean we don't have a special award/word for families of fire and EMS who died while directly saving American lives, it just seems like millitary marketing and I find it rather disgusting, your kid died for special interests, my heart goes out for their loss, but to try to give the family a "gold star" like a little kid who got a spelling bee right, it's wrong on many levels.


As per the flight in question, how do they know that others on that plane were not going to a funeral with a tight connecting flight? , so their sons death was more important than the guy in the next seat?


To me this feels more like marketing than compassion.

Your usual anti-military trite.

First, not sure where you're going with the EMS comparison but you're way off the mark. You and I both know that families of fallen EMS members are treated with the highest respect. I know for a fact that we present them with a special plaque in honor of their loved one. In our program and others, there are monuments erected for medcrews that have died in aircraft accidents. We do formation funeral fly overs all the time for those that have died in the line of duty. We go above and beyond to show proper recognition and respect for fallen fire / EMS and you know it.

So some people were delayed an extra few minutes deplaning. Who cares? If I was on a flight and the captain announced that we were waiting for a family to leave to attend a funeral, military or not, I'd remain seated. Or, if a passenger had a medical issue and was getting off first, I'd let them go.

When these KIA servicemembers fly out of Bagram, the entire ramp goes under "quiet hours." It's an amazing sight and for someone like myself who's usually doesn't get emotional, it was a very moving experience as well. A ramp that's normally a bustling, chaotic mess goes silent. It isn't a few minutes sitting on an airliner, the entire ramp completely stops what they're doing for about 10-15 mins. You stand there, at attention with your flight crew, as a tan HUMVEE carrying a flag draped coffin, slowly passes down the flightline. It's about taking a little bit of your morning to salute the fallen, before you go about the daily grind of flying in war. This salute isn't for someone serving "special interest." It's not about the politics or the military industrial complex we so loathe either. It's just a gesture of showing respect for a young "kid" who died for the buddy next to him. It's for a soldier who came to a foreign country, with unclear objectives and just tried his best to make it a better place when he left. It's just that simple.

 

[azure]

Agreed, if I'm placing bets, it's that they used the term "Gold Star family" which doesn't mean anything to most people, and almost sounds like a "Double-secret platinum rewards frequent flyer". If they had made an announcement that the family would be released first out of respect for their fallen soldier, it would have taken a real a-hole to make a scene about it.

Yes, I think this is highly likely. I had never heard the term before this summer, in the aftermath of the brouhaha over Trump's ill-considered remarks regarding the Khans. And I work at a private military college and am in frequent contact with people who know graduates who have made the ultimate sacrifice. I have no idea when or where this term originated, but it doesn't seem to be one that the general public is familiar with.

(OTOH, this is just a guess - it depends on the wording used in the announcement. I have no doubt that there are a lot of people out there who care only about their own time and obligations and have no respect for the men and women who serve our country.)

 

[mscard88]

(OTOH, this is just a guess - it depends on the wording used in the announcement.)

I always used plain ole English to explain what was going to occur and never had a problem. And I didn't use the "Goldstar" term either.

 

[James331]

Your usual anti-military trite.

First, not sure where you're going with the EMS comparison but you're way off the mark. You and I both know that families of fallen EMS members are treated with the highest respect. I know for a fact that we present them with a special plaque in honor of their loved one. In our program and others, there are monuments erected for medcrews that have died in aircraft accidents. We do formation funeral fly overs all the time for those that have died in the line of duty. We go above and beyond to show proper recognition and respect for fallen fire / EMS and you know it.

So some people were delayed an extra few minutes deplaning. Who cares? If I was on a flight and the captain announced that we were waiting for a family to leave to attend a funeral, military or not, I'd remain seated. Or, if a passenger had a medical issue and was getting off first, I'd let them go.

When these KIA servicemembers fly out of Bagram, the entire ramp goes under "quiet hours." It's an amazing sight and for someone like myself who's usually doesn't get emotional, it was a very moving experience as well. A ramp that's normally a bustling, chaotic mess goes silent. It isn't a few minutes sitting on an airliner, the entire ramp completely stops what they're doing for about 10-15 mins. You stand there, at attention with your flight crew, as a tan HUMVEE carrying a flag draped coffin, slowly passes down the flightline. It's about taking a little bit of your morning to salute the fallen, before you go about the daily grind of flying in war. This salute isn't for someone serving "special interest." It's not about the politics or the military industrial complex we so loath either. It's just a gesture of showing respect for a young "kid" who died for the buddy next to him. It's for a soldier who came to a foreign country, with unclear objectives and just tried his best to make it a better place when he left. It's just that simple.

I'll give you most of that, however this gold star talk just smells like marketing, we all know photos of dead soldiers, especially from BS conflicts can end politician careers, and hurt the parties who got them into office, calling these families "gold star" and making anyone who died over there a "hero" just seems a little wrong to me.


And no anti millitary here, just anti special interest and occupation/war monger. I'm all for defense, just not what we've been up to lately, no blame on the 18yr olds who came from economically ravaged towns and didn't know any better, they are victims as much as anyone.

 

[mscard88]

to
And no anti millitary here, just anti special interest and occupation/war monger. I'm all for defense, just not what we've been up to lately, no blame on the 18yr olds who came from economically ravaged towns and didn't know any better, they are victims as much as anyone.

James you are so out of touch, you really are. And I guess people like Pat Tillman didn't know any better when he gave up millions playing in the NFL huh? It's an all volunteer military and has been for a long time. That's part of the problem IMO. Not having a draft that reaches across all economic classes to expose what goes on during war to a lot more people like Vietnam did. There are folks who don't even know our military is all over the world deployed, and that the war is still ongoing.

 

[Ravioli]

I have no doubt that there are a lot of people out there who care only about their own time and obligations and have no respect for the men and women who serve our country.)

Okay - enough bashing. We are talking about TRANSPORTATION.

In my OPINION, in a plane with 200 people on board, no one cares about anybody else, period. That's based on countless hours of direct observation over 20 years.

@mscard88 linked to a post where I described myself as an elitist prick. That's fine. I wrote it and it's true.

I've never said anything anti-military and I never will. I have enough retired military officers and enlisted persons among my family and friends to know better. And being a staunch conservative I value the difficult job they do.

 

[Ben]

Yes, I think this is highly likely. I had never heard the term before this summer, in the aftermath of the brouhaha over Trump's ill-considered remarks regarding the Khans. And I work at a private military college and am in frequent contact with people who know graduates who have made the ultimate sacrifice. I have no idea when or where this term originated, but it doesn't seem to be one that the general public is familiar with.

(OTOH, this is just a guess - it depends on the wording used in the announcement. I have no doubt that there are a lot of people out there who care only about their own time and obligations and have no respect for the men and women who serve our country.)

I went to that same military college! Essayons!

Your usual anti-military trite.

First, not sure where you're going with the EMS comparison but you're way off the mark. You and I both know that families of fallen EMS members are treated with the highest respect. I know for a fact that we present them with a special plaque in honor of their loved one. In our program and others, there are monuments erected for medcrews that have died in aircraft accidents. We do formation funeral fly overs all the time for those that have died in the line of duty. We go above and beyond to show proper recognition and respect for fallen fire / EMS and you know it.

So some people were delayed an extra few minutes deplaning. Who cares? If I was on a flight and the captain announced that we were waiting for a family to leave to attend a funeral, military or not, I'd remain seated. Or, if a passenger had a medical issue and was getting off first, I'd let them go.

When these KIA servicemembers fly out of Bagram, the entire ramp goes under "quiet hours." It's an amazing sight and for someone like myself who's usually doesn't get emotional, it was a very moving experience as well. A ramp that's normally a bustling, chaotic mess goes silent. It isn't a few minutes sitting on an airliner, the entire ramp completely stops what they're doing for about 10-15 mins. You stand there, at attention with your flight crew, as a tan HUMVEE carrying a flag draped coffin, slowly passes down the flightline. It's about taking a little bit of your morning to salute the fallen, before you go about the daily grind of flying in war. This salute isn't for someone serving "special interest." It's not about the politics or the military industrial complex we so loath either. It's just a gesture of showing respect for a young "kid" who died for the buddy next to him. It's for a soldier who came to a foreign country, with unclear objectives and just tried his best to make it a better place when he left. It's just that simple.

Just got back from Bagram a couple months ago. This is the real deal. Understand that nobody likes to be delayed or watch people get preferential treatment over themselves, in any situation.. we just seem to be built that way. Anything that advantages anybody else in a small way, we don't like.. However, this story is a great example on why it is best to just keep one's mouth shut until you know the whole story Like Phoenix said in his post.

If people did know the situation, and did boo? Shame on them.. but at least we know that this behavior isn't the norm.

 

[Everskyward]

Okay - enough bashing. We are talking about TRANSPORTATION.

In my OPINION, in a plane with 200 people on board, no one cares about anybody else, period. That's based on countless hours of direct observation over 20 years.

I would say that, for the most part, that is not true. When I am getting off the airplane I rarely see people who won't let the row in front of them deplane first. But is it the cynical attitude of a minority who spoil it for everyone. They push people into the every person for themselves stance.

 

[jordane93]

Occasionally I'll get the jackwagon who won't let me get out even though I'm in the row ahead but for the most part, people are pretty good about. I always leave a little space in front of the person in front of me. That usually freaks people out.

 

[denverpilot]

Respectful point of order: We are not at war. Congress is too chicken**** to declare one.

Not that it matters to the people fighting and dying... but it does strike me as not what I want my representatives doing.

 

[Velocity173]

Respectful point of order: We are not at war. Congress is too chicken**** to declare one.

Not that it matters to the people fighting and dying... but it does strike me as not what I want my representatives doing.

If you're referring to Aghanistan in particular, then yes, that "war" ended 2 years ago. I think what mscard is referring to is the GWOT. That's on going and will be for some time.

 

[denverpilot]

If you're referring to Aghanistan in particular, then yes, that "war" ended 2 years ago. I think what mscard is referring to is the GWOT. That's on going and will be for some time.

Referring to all of them. Congress hasn't voted to declare war, constitutionally, in many decades.

 

[Velocity173]

Referring to all of them. Congress hasn't voted to declare war, constitutionally, in many decades.

Yeah but like you said, it doesn't really matter for those fighting. Authorizing "Use of force" is basically war without a formal declaration. It just semantics. Military forces would still operate the same with or without a war declaration.

 

[tmyers]

I'm all for defense, just not what we've been up to lately, no blame on the 18yr olds who came from economically ravaged towns and didn't know any better, they are victims as much as anyone.

Yep, that's why I served, except I was older and out of college, come to think of it so was my son.

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah but like you said, it doesn't really matter for those fighting. Authorizing "Use of force" is basically war without a formal declaration. It just semantics. Military forces would still operate the same with or without a war declaration.

Hmmm opens the door for a secondary question: So the ROE is the same in declared war as in "police actions" or "peacekeeping missions"?

(I seem to recall an entire generation saying the ROE limitations on a certain "police action" in SE Asia essentially lost the conflict for us... or put another way, military forces were not allowed to operate normally or "the same" as one might expect.)

It's headed off topic, but worth a mention. If you're going to declare war on someone, declare it, annihilate them, and go home. No screwing around.

 

[mscard88]

Well there's Korea too. Having served there in the mid 70s it's serious, all the time. Back then we had F-4s on alert uploaded w/ tactical nukes. It's technically a truce and hasn't ended.

 

[mscard88]

If you're going to declare war on someone, declare it, annihilate them, and go home. No screwing around.

Yeah VN was micromanaged by Johnson & McNamara. First Gulf was the way to do it. Since then how many times have we taken Mosul and Fallujah? So I agree, go in and kick ass and hopefully go home. But, we're still in Korea, since 1950-53.

 

[JOhnH]

Yeah VN was micromanaged by Johnson & McNamara. First Gulf was the way to do it. Since then how many times have we taken Mosul and Fallujah? So I agree, go in and kick ass and hopefully go home. But, we're still in Korea, since 1950-53.

I mostly agree with you, except in the first Gulf war, we got just to the edge of victory; then quit.

 

[denverpilot]

Seems like there's a choice...

A) Stop getting involved in overseas war.

B) Keep fighting limited undeclared wars and purposefully losing them while training the military on how to win, and rah-rahing the death count.

C) Declare it and win it or lose it. But get serious about it.

A couple of generations since before I was born keep choosing B.

With that option you appear to end up with a lot of "gold stars" and not much else.

Dad was essentially drafted in VN - he enlisted to have a tiny bit of control over his fate and duty responsibilities, just before his number came up.

Grandpa was the last guy to see us win a war, and he wasn't so sure it was a win, but it was better than the alternative. His best friend crash landed a glider in France on D-Day.

The realization that politicians don't wage war to win started with my dad's generation, I watched friends who thought they'd won something in the Middle East become disappointed in the outcome close to 30 years later Gen X), and I don't see any politicians with the backbone necessary to win showing up for the next generations coming. (Millennials and beyond...)

Dad always said he was proud to have served but lamented the ridiculous loss of life over what essentially was, a loss. And when the Middle East blew up again in the 90s, he said, "Same **** different decade." He finished out his tour minesweeping the Suez for Carter.

But they did used to give out nice certificates for playing with the nukes... I have his on the ham shack wall, along with a nice photo of a Standard missile leaving the box on his ship -- which is now at the bottom of the Atlantic after being used for target practice.

Color me both impressed that kids still choose to serve honorably and unimpressed that they have to serve and die for politicians too scared to lose their cush multi-decade "representative" jobs by actually declaring a war and acting like their decisions (that nobody agrees with nor feels like they're actually *representing* anyone, anymore), do matter. They get people killed.

Politicians have been sending kids to die for their personal political gain, and purposefully losing those military actions, my entire life. Think about that one a bit. Some of you remember when that wasn't the case. We don't.

Let's not even get into the lopsided "support" we get from "aliens". Anyone else in the "free world" floating 11, soon 12, carrier battle groups? Not a chance. Why should they when we'll bankrupt ourselves doing it for them?

 

[mscard88]

I mostly agree with you, except in the first Gulf war, we got just to the edge of victory; then quit.

The goal was to liberate Kuwait, and the US and the coalition countries were successful.

 

[azure]

Okay - enough bashing. We are talking about TRANSPORTATION

No bashing on my part, at least I didn't mean it to come across that way, just expressing an opinion.

In my OPINION, in a plane with 200 people on board, no one cares about anybody else, period. That's based on countless hours of direct observation over 20 years.

I think that's a little too strong. Lots of people don't care about anyone else, but I suspect that many people would at least show some respect if they understood who the family was that was being given special treatment. At least I know I would, and I hope I'm not in the minority.

 

[Velocity173]

Hmmm opens the door for a secondary question: So the ROE is the same in declared war as in "police actions" or "peacekeeping missions"?

(I seem to recall an entire generation saying the ROE limitations on a certain "police action" in SE Asia essentially lost the conflict for us... or put another way, military forces were not allowed to operate normally or "the same" as one might expect.)

It's headed off topic, but worth a mention. If you're going to declare war on someone, declare it, annihilate them, and go home. No screwing around.

ROE is tailored for a particular theater based on military polices / political influences. Even in Iraq vs Afghanistan, ROE was different. As time went on, both areas modified their ROE because of civilian casualties. These restrictions would have still existed whether we declared or not. Of course post conflict or stability operations further modify the ROE.

I agree, it would have been nice if we had just declared in OEF / OIF but I think we went with the "use of force" verbiage because of the GWOT. This allowed us to operate globally, with pretty much impunity. Declaring would've restricted the DOD's reach.

The only draw back I can think of by not declaring is the legitimacy of the whole operation. Instead of be labeled a "combatant" you can be treated as an "air pirate." It's not really that important though because once you've cut the head off of the government like we did in Iraq, we weren't under any protection from the Geneva Convention anyway.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Okay - enough bashing. We are talking about TRANSPORTATION.

In my OPINION, in a plane with 200 people on board, no one cares about anybody else, period. That's based on countless hours of direct observation over 20 years.

No, we're not talking about transportation...we're talking about people. And in my direct observation, the overwhelming majority of people, on an airplane or not, will expend at least minimal effort to show respect for the parents of a serviceman who died in combat, whether the combat was justified or not.

In fact, I have witnessed the expenditure of great personal effort and tremendous discomfort by thousands of people to show their respects to the parents of one fallen soldier.

I've never said anything anti-military and I never will. I have enough retired military officers and enlisted persons among my family and friends to know better. And being a staunch conservative I value the difficult job they do.

do any of them condone you being a dick?

 

[denverpilot]

The only draw back I can think of by not declaring is the legitimacy of the whole operation. Instead of be labeled a "combatant" you can be treated as an "air pirate." It's not really that important though because once you've cut the head off of the government like we did in Iraq, we weren't under any protection from the Geneva Convention anyway.

Cut the head off of the government, that we put in place. Yay us.

 

[MtnMarcus]

James you are so out of touch, you really are. And I guess people like Pat Tillman didn't know any better when he gave up millions playing in the NFL huh? It's an all volunteer military and has been for a long time. That's part of the problem IMO. Not having a draft that reaches across all economic classes to expose what goes on during war to a lot more people like Vietnam did. There are folks who don't even know our military is all over the world deployed, and that the war is still ongoing.

Some people just need their teeth slammed down the back of their throat.....and this james character is one of them. No point whatsoever in wasting time trying to reason with his personality type.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Per the AP news story http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GOLD_STAR_FAMILY_BOOED?SITE=AP it was the first class passengers booing and the announcement mentioned only a "special military family" .

Seems like a combination of a somewhat vague announcement and the attitude of these first class passengers. I suspect such passengers not only feel some economic justification in being allowed off first, but often have some personal ego investment in being first class passengers. At the end of the flight, they may also have been intoxicated.

 

[Ravioli]

do any of them condone you being a dick?

Condone it? I guess so. Whenever I travel with them they "let" me make the arrangements so they will be sitting with me. Could even go so far as to say they enjoy it.

 

[James331]

James you are so out of touch, you really are. And I guess people like Pat Tillman didn't know any better when he gave up millions playing in the NFL huh? It's an all volunteer military and has been for a long time. That's part of the problem IMO. Not having a draft that reaches across all economic classes to expose what goes on during war to a lot more people like Vietnam did. There are folks who don't even know our military is all over the world deployed, and that the war is still ongoing.

Hey, again I'm not sure of reality, because I don't have cable news and I haven't seen a "scientific" poll, so I have zero way of knowing the "facts", but the average military dude around here, and around the base near me isn't ex NFL or a university grad, Id love to meet a company that's comprised of ex NFL players and scholars.

Most of the guys Ive encountered, it was a "wanted to get out of my town" "no jobs and it beats Walmart" etc.

Lots of these economically F'ed areas, for these young kids, its live in your moms basement (which she doesn't even own), maybe get into drugs to pass the time, because heck, there isn't anything else in eyesight worth setting your sights on, or swing by the recruiters office and join the military.

 

[Art VanDelay]

If I were told my flight was being delayed for a "gold star family", I may have booed too. What the hell is a "gold star family"? Why are they more important than my family? Without further explanation, it was a "booable" situation.

How can you NOT know what a Gold Star family is ?????

 

[James331]

Don't have cable?
Don't veg out in front of propaganda sites?

I had no idea until that whole trump thing blew up with that "gold star" family.

I'd bet 12 months ago over 95% of people in the US had no idea.

Good marketing though.