Question to ATC guys/gals

RotorDude

RotorDude

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
2,321
Display Name
Display name:
GliderDude
Question to the ATC experts about best phraseology. Let's assume I am flying a Cessna Skymaster N6547C, VFR under flight advisories. This happened to me several times today, after a handoff to the next controller:
Me: "Podunk Approach, Skymaster 6547C level 6500."
Podunk: "47C Podunk, roger. Say your type?"
Me: "Skymaster 47C is a Skymaster."

As background, I used for many years to identify myself as "Cessna 47C", without the specific type, and have recently switched to "Skymaster 47C" so as to reduce the bandwidth usage. Yet, in roughly 50% of the cases, it doesn't seem to work, with ATC requesting the type as per above example, just like before.
Obviously a non-issue in IFR, or even VFR once the strip gets properly input into the "system", but often on a long VFR FF flight it takes several sectors and handoffs until they finally get the crucial data (like type and destination) in properly (sometimes just before landing :) ).
So my question is, how can I improve my phraseology or procedure?
 
Use the plane's ID, like for a Cherokee it'd be PA28, Cessna 402 would be CE-402, etc. Yours would be CE-337. I think Cessnas are CE but may be just C.
 
RotorDude said:
Question to the ATC experts about best phraseology. Let's assume I am flying a Cessna Skymaster N6547C, VFR under flight advisories. This happened to me several times today, after a handoff to the next controller:
Me: "Podunk Approach, Skymaster 6547C level 6500."
Podunk: "47C Podunk, roger. Say your type?"
Me: "Skymaster 47C is a Skymaster."

As background, I used for many years to identify myself as "Cessna 47C", without the specific type, and have recently switched to "Skymaster 47C" so as to reduce the bandwidth usage. Yet, in roughly 50% of the cases, it doesn't seem to work, with ATC requesting the type as per above example, just like before.
Obviously a non-issue in IFR, or even VFR once the strip gets properly input into the "system", but often on a long VFR FF flight it takes several sectors and handoffs until they finally get the crucial data (like type and destination) in properly (sometimes just before landing :) ).
So my question is, how can I improve my phraseology or procedure?
Click to expand...
I see nothing that needs improvement. I suspect that those controllers who ask your type after you identify yourself as "Skymaster 6574C are not aware that a Skymaster is a C337. They want the type in the format that the computer will accept.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Tell them you're a Cessna 337. Like I tell them I'm a PA-28.
Click to expand...

Assuming you are serious, that wouldn't work. The point is that they ignore my call sign, which includes the type. I don't think "Cessna 337 47C" is a good call sign.
 
roncachamp said:
I see nothing that needs improvement. I suspect that those controllers who ask your type after you identify yourself as "Skymaster 6574C are not aware that a Skymaster is a C337. They want the type in the format that the computer will accept.
Click to expand...

Well, my real type is even more common, so less of a brain-leap to jot down. And as I mentioned to Tim, there is no way I can use type numbers in the call sign. So what you are saying is that I just have to live with it, I guess.
 
RotorDude said:
Assuming you are serious, that wouldn't work. The point is that they ignore my call sign, which includes the type. I don't think "Cessna 337 47C" is a good call sign.
Click to expand...

He means a Cessna 337 for type, not call sigh. When the controller "say type", he means Cessna 337.
 
Twin Cessna!
 
I am serious. Your "type" is a Cessna 337, your call sign is Skymaster four seven Charlie. If they can't figure it out, its on them, not you.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I am serious. Your "type" is a Cessna 337, your call sign is Skymaster four seven Charlie. If they can't figure it out, its on them, not you.
Click to expand...

OK, but as I mentioned, the entire point of this exercise is to cut down on bandwidth by specifying the type upfront in the call sign. The issue is not how to identify my type (my real one is one of the most common types), but how to save a question.
 
Well let's face it, C337 isn't that common of an aircraft so you're gonna get some questions. If I was on position, yeah, I call you a Skymaster. Not all controllers are familiar with types.
 
RotorDude said:
OK, but as I mentioned, the entire point of this exercise is to cut down on bandwidth by specifying the type upfront in the call sign. The issue is not how to identify my type (my real one is one of the most common types), but how to save a question.
Click to expand...

Well then perhaps this is why you're confusing a controller. We all made suggestions but guess you want it your way. ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Well let's face it, C337 isn't that common of an aircraft so you're gonna get some questions. If I was on position, yeah, I call you a Skymaster. Not all controllers are familiar with types.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you are hung up on the specifics (which I picked arbitrarily as an example). Assume I said, "Cardinal 47C". Would that make it easier?
 
mscard88 said:
Well then perhaps this is why you're confusing a controller. We all made suggestions but guess you want it your way. ;)
Click to expand...

The only one so far who answered to the point was Steven, who said there is nothing I can do, which is unfortunate. The suggestions given to me by others didn't apply to my question.
 
RotorDude said:
OK, but as I mentioned, the entire point of this exercise is to cut down on bandwidth by specifying the type upfront in the call sign. The issue is not how to identify my type (my real one is one of the most common types), but how to save a question.
Click to expand...

Okay, on initial call up from the facility who gives you your squawk, tell them your type when you call for clearance.

"(facility) ground, Skymaster four seven Charlie, a Cessna 337 parked on the North ramp with Juliet, request departure to the West at four thousand five hundred."
 
RotorDude said:
The only one so far who answered to the point was Steven, who said there is nothing I can do, which is unfortunate. The suggestions given to me by others didn't apply to my question.
Click to expand...

<---- I'm done too. (pulls the thread ejection handle)
 
Timbeck2 said:
Okay, on initial call up from the facility who gives you your squawk, tell them your type when you call for clearance.

"(facility) ground, Skymaster four seven Charlie, a Cessna 337 parked on the North ramp with Juliet, request departure to the West at four thousand four hundred."
Click to expand...

In all these cases the previous sector is already fully aware of my type, destination, etc.. The problem is the next facility, when they don't input my data into the system and just hand me off (presumably with minimum info) to the next sector. So the next sector starts the 21 questions again, and again, and again, until someone along the route finally inputs it. Using my type as part of the call sign was what I hoped would help this, but it appears to have limited success (~ 50%).

Edit: And as far as being able to get FF on the ground, you can't do that at most airports I fly out of, unfortunately, otherwise it would be be a non-issue.
 
(floats back down to Earth for another try)

In MY world, and I'm assuming you are talking about various radar sectors as you fly along....there would be no need to re-ask the questions as your "tag" will have all the information the next sector needs. It shouldn't change every time you talk to another sector. That's what happens in MY world, yours is...well,....different.
 
Timbeck2 said:
(floats back down to Earth for another try)

In MY world, and I'm assuming you are talking about various radar sectors as you fly along....there would be no need to re-ask the questions as your "tag" will have all the information the next sector needs. It shouldn't change every time you talk to another sector. That's what happens in MY world, yours is...well,....different.
Click to expand...

Well, my world is the northeast, mostly, and it would be interesting to hear from others who fly here if their experience is different. I do about a 50-50 mix of IFR/VFR, and all my non-local VFR is under FF. And as I said, once they finally input you into the system, it's fine from that point on, the problem is that it sometimes takes several sectors until they do it. It's not just the type, BTW, it's destination too.
 
RotorDude said:
Unfortunately you are hung up on the specifics (which I picked arbitrarily as an example). Assume I said, "Cardinal 47C". Would that make it easier?
Click to expand...

Ok, if it's a C177 im going to call you Cardinal 47C. Once again, all controllers aren't created equal. Some go the extra mile and learn aircraft types, others use "November." Don't know what I can tell ya.
 
Velocity173 said:
Ok, if it's a C177 im going to call you Cardinal 47C. Once again, all controllers aren't created equal. Some go the extra mile and learn aircraft types, others use "November." Don't know what I can tell ya.
Click to expand...

Sure, but I would expect that the more common types like "Skyhawk" (for example) would be easier.
I do appreciate all the answers, BTW, and apologize if I caused any confusion.
I should also mention that I think ATC are doing a fantastic job, and consider them an incredible asset.
 
Doubt that I would have this level of consternation over a facility clarification query. I say "facility, Warrior level four thousand five hundred." Facility says "say type", I say "P-A 28." They say roger or nothing and we glide right along. Never really spent any time thinking about changing the call up or analyzing the question.
 
RotorDude said:
OK, but as I mentioned, the entire point of this exercise is to cut down on bandwidth by specifying the type upfront in the call sign. The issue is not how to identify my type (my real one is one of the most common types), but how to save a question.
Click to expand...
If they don't know what you mean by "Skymaster" or "Cardinal" they ask the question. Not seeing what is wrong with that.
 
Everskyward said:
If they don't know what you mean by "Skymaster" or "Cardinal" they ask the question. Not seeing what is wrong with that.
Click to expand...

I get that. It's just that my type is very common, and it still happens, with some regularity. I guess nothing can be done about it (if I discover a solution I'll share it here).
 
I've used FF several times and never had I had the same problem you describe. The only time I had to give anyone my type was on the ground at the departure airport who put me into the computer and gave me my squawk.

Question: Are they giving you a different squawk each time you change sectors as well?
 
Everskyward said:
You wouldn't use those type designators in your call sign and since the OP is talking about VFR, they wouldn't be in a flight plan for ATC to see either.
Click to expand...
No,but when ATC says "say type" THIS IS what they mean, tail number has nothing to do with it..
 
wrbix said:
Jeez guys, it's not that complicated - go here:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/aviationtypeid.html
Find your FAA type designator and use it when asked. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I believe the OP is using the correct designator for his aircraft. Problem is the controllers he is dealing with, either aren't getting his designator typed into the computer, or they just aren't familiar with the designator.

Controllers don't have that entire list memorized and if they don't, they'd have to bust out the .65 or other manuals to see what the name of the designator is.
 
wrbix said:
No,but when ATC says "say type" THIS IS what they mean, tail number has nothing to do with it..
Click to expand...
Yes, I think we had that figured out. The OP was wanting to know how to avoid having ATC ask the question "say type".
 
Everskyward said:
You wouldn't use those type designators in your call sign and since the OP is talking about VFR, they wouldn't be in a flight plan for ATC to see either.
Click to expand...

There wouldn't be a flight plan (or flight strip used for ATC) but there WOULD be a radar data tag that ATC can see...unless he is squawking 1200 but he said he was using FF so he should be on a discreet transponder code.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've used FF several times and never had I had the same problem you describe. The only time I had to give anyone my type was on the ground at the departure airport who put me into the computer and gave me my squawk.

Question: Are they giving you a different squawk each time you change sectors as well?
Click to expand...

Normally (99.9%) it's the same squawk (normally not 1200), or they ask me to change it in a normal way ("recycle/reset transponder squawk XXXX"). Interestingly, today there was one exception, where one sector handed me off to another, and the new one mysteriously couldn't find me, so he had me bump the squawk by one, from 3421 to 3422 (as example, though I do have the audio recorded).
 
Timbeck2 said:
There wouldn't be a flight plan (or flight strip used for ATC) but there WOULD be a radar data tag that ATC can see...unless he is squawking 1200 but he said he was using FF so he should be on a discreet transponder code.
Click to expand...
But wouldn't the first controller the OP talks to need to enter that in?
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, I think we had that figured out. The OP was wanting to know how to avoid having ATC ask the question "say type".
Click to expand...
But nowhere did OP give his TYPE designator to ATC, per his original post. They're asking for C336, not "Skymaster"
 
Yes, which is what I tried to convey waaaaaay up in this thread now.

I'm not here by the way.

edit: answer to Everskyward's question.
 
wrbix said:
But nowhere did OP give his TYPE designator to ATC, per his original post. They're asking for C336, not "Skymaster"
Click to expand...

Assume that it was a Skyhawk (i.e. very common). I just used Skymaster as (an unfortunate) example.
 
wrbix said:
But nowhere did OP give his TYPE designator to ATC, per his original post. They're asking for C336, not "Skymaster"
Click to expand...
Yes, but you don't hear people saying "Skymaster 123AB, a C-337, blah blah" on initial callup. That would seem like the only way to do it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top