Feds: Cocaine a factor in Round Lake pilot's fatal 2014 crash

acrophile said:
Yes, the NTSB report says that. And the lawyer's response says, "The blood level of cocaine reported by the NTSB was below the threshold needed to produce impairment or physiological effects".

Neither claim should be trusted without verification.
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It is plausible that both are correct. One may talk about the level at the start of flight, one at the end.
 
acrophile said:
Because in reality, most recreational drug use (including alcohol) is no big deal.
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What a great thing to say on a pilot forum. (not)

Recreational drug use is a big deal. If you need to introduce some type of drug into your system, for whatever reason, then you have a problem that you're not willing to admit to. I often see the [false] comparison to alcohol but remember not everyone drinks alcohol to get drunk. People do drugs to get high.
 
MadseasoN said:
What a great thing to say on a pilot forum. (not)

Recreational drug use is a big deal. If you need to introduce some type of drug into your system, for whatever reason, then you have a problem that you're not willing to admit to. I often see the [false] comparison to alcohol but remember not everyone drinks alcohol to get drunk. People do drugs to get high.
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My issue is cocaine. It is highly addictive, nearly as much so as opiates. I can see someone toking on the occasional joint to smooth things out on a rough day. I've never seen casual cocaine use, and I doubt I ever will.

All that said, there is a much bigger clue to this guy's lifestyle in the accident chain. Who here recreationally flies at 4:00 am? Who takes a couple kids with when they do so? Who recreationally flies long cross countries at the edge of their airplane's endurance during the middle of the night?
 
MadseasoN said:
If you need to introduce some type of drug into your system, for whatever reason, then you have a problem that you're not willing to admit to.
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This is a cheap rhetorical trick that prohibitionists often resort to: proclaiming (without evidence) that if you use recreational drugs, you necessarily NEED to.

I often see the [(]false[)] comparison to alcohol but remember not everyone drinks alcohol to get drunk.
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Alcohol isn't a COMPARISON to recreational drugs, it's an EXAMPLE of recreational drugs. Alcohol IS a recreational drug. And the minimum standard size for a single drink is one that does produce measurable psychoactive effects.

Of course not everyone drinks to the point of becoming temporarily disabled (i.e., drunk). But most people don't do other drugs to the point of being disabled, either.
 
steingar said:
I've never seen casual cocaine use, and I doubt I ever will.
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You've already been pointed to strong contrary evidence in this thread. You choose to ignore it, for whatever reason.
 
acrophile said:
Alcohol isn't a COMPARISON to recreational drugs, it's an EXAMPLE of recreational drugs. Alcohol IS a recreational drug. And the minimum standard size for a single drink is one that does produce measurable psychoactive effects.
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Facts not in evidence. Many fermented beverages are indeed beverages, imbibed for their taste and aroma, and not for their psychoactive properties. No other psychoactive substance can make this claim in any substantive form.
 
steingar said:
Facts not in evidence. Many fermented beverages are indeed beverages, imbibed for their taste and aroma, and not for their psychoactive properties. No other psychoactive substance can make this claim in any substantive form.
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Not so.....at all.

If you walked into a Washington State legal dope store, you would see hundreds of hemp smoke products on the wall. ALL have the exact same THC content. Where they differ is their taste and aroma.:yes:
 
kgruber said:
Not so.....at all.

If you walked into a Washington State legal dope store, you would see hundreds of hemp smoke products on the wall. ALL have the exact same THC content. Where they differ is their taste and aroma.:yes:
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Smoking is drug delivery. Giving it flavors doesn't make it any less.
 
acrophile said:
This is a cheap rhetorical trick that prohibitionists often resort to: proclaiming (without evidence) that if you use recreational drugs, you necessarily NEED to.



Alcohol isn't a COMPARISON to recreational drugs, it's an EXAMPLE of recreational drugs. Alcohol IS a recreational drug. And the minimum standard size for a single drink is one that does produce measurable psychoactive effects.

Of course not everyone drinks to the point of becoming temporarily disabled (i.e., drunk). But most people don't do other drugs to the point of being disabled, either.
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"Prohibitionists" is a name calling/labeling tactic that drug addicts use in an attempt to justify their drug addiction.

Drunk != disabled. That's enough of the semantics game.

Grow up and stop doing drugs, people.
 
MadseasoN said:
"Prohibitionists" is a name calling/labeling tactic that drug addicts use in an attempt to justify their drug addiction.
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"Prohibitionist" is a neutral, accurately descriptive term that has been in use for at least a century. Any negative connotation it has acquired is inherent in the stance it refers to, and would equally taint any other accurately descriptive term for the same stance.

Grow up and stop doing drugs, people.
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So are you commanding us to never drink beer or wine, or are you pretending that those aren't drugs?
 
acrophile said:
So are you commanding us to never drink beer or wine, or are you pretending that those aren't drugs?
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For Odin's sake, if you're thirsty you can drink a beer and not be thirsty anymore! No other recreational substance fills that void.

Heck, used to be no one ever drank water because it wasn't safe. You drank beer or wine (depending on where you lived) from an early age. Lots of folks still do.
 
acrophile said:
"Prohibitionist" is a neutral, accurately descriptive term that has been in use for at least a century. Any negative connotation it has acquired is inherent in the stance it refers to, and would equally taint any other accurately descriptive term for the same stance.



So are you commanding us to never drink beer or wine, or are you pretending that those aren't drugs?
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It's a trendy label. Mostly used by potheads.

False comparison to alcohol, yet again.
 
So are you commanding us to never drink beer or wine, or are you pretending that those aren't drugs?
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Alcohol has demonstrated health benefits. Cocaine? Not so sure.

Drug proponents always bring up alcohol to justify their position. It's a tired argument.
 
acrophile said:
"Prohibitionist" is a neutral, accurately descriptive term that has been in use for at least a century. Any negative connotation it has acquired is inherent in the stance it refers to, and would equally taint any other accurately descriptive term for the same stance.



So are you commanding us to never drink beer or wine, or are you pretending that those aren't drugs?
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those substances are legal, cocaine, heroin, meth and even marijuana (at the federal level and in most states) are not. choosing to use illegal substances reflects on character and exhibits poor decision making skills.
 
Cocaine effects, from link I posted previously. You have to be stupid to read something like this and use cocaine.

Effects:

Early phase – Psychological: Euphoria, excitation, feelings of well-being, general arousal, increased sexual excitement, dizziness, self-absorbed, increased focus and alertness, mental clarity, increased talkativeness, motor restlessness, offsets fatigue, improved performance in some simple tasks, and loss of appetite. Higher doses may exhibit a pattern of psychosis with confused and disoriented behavior, delusions, hallucinations, irritability, fear, paranoia, antisocial behavior, and aggressiveness. Physiological: Increased heart rate and blood pressure, increased body temperature, dilated pupils, increased light sensitivity, constriction of peripheral blood vessels, rapid speech, dyskinesia, nausea, and vomiting. Late phase - Psychological: Dysphoria, depression, agitation, nervousness, drug craving, general CNS depression, fatigue, insomnia. Physiological: Itching/picking/scratching, normal heart rate, normal pupils.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Alcohol has demonstrated health benefits. Cocaine? Not so sure.

Drug proponents always bring up alcohol to justify their position. It's a tired argument.
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Ethanol(the active ingredient in booze) has no health benefits. In fact, it is a poison, just like all other alcohols(non-drinking type) are. For that reason it was used (in low concentration) as a safe alternative to water as it can kill most bacteria. It is the only alcohol(and there are a few) that our bodies can "tolerate" in very small quantities with desirable side effects. It is also very deadly if overdone(something that is quite easy to do).

The health benefits(besides killing bacteria) come from the beverage that was created with the process. You can remove the ethanol from it and it will be just as tasty and beneficial. Yet, non-alcoholic beer or wine isn't very popular. Most people drink it for the side effects, not the benefits. They may choose more beneficial variety as a bonus.

Marihuana also has quite a few demonstrated health benefits. Perhaps not the THC

Coca leaves are a natural product that is used in Bolivia, legally to fight altitude sickness.

Coffee is highly addictive and in high concentration(power like cocaine), can easily kill you.

Opiates(poppy) have been called "God's Own Medicine" throughout the ages.

So.. it's not all black and white. Legality, Morality, and Reality do not always go hand and hand when it comes to "drugs". Legal and illegal.
 
And also... Besides being addictive and dangerous poison, alcohol is, perhaps, one of the most important substances in the course of human history.

It's either solely responsible or contributed to number of technological and medical inventions without which our civilization would not have existed.

It had some 10000 years to achieve that. Other drugs.. no one knows yet.
 
I'm quite convinced alcohol invented our civilization. Monoculture civilization is coincident with fermentation technology...
 
steingar said:
I'm quite convinced alcohol invented our civilization. Monoculture civilization is coincident with fermentation technology...
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It would be, but I'm not sure what came first. As when people settled into an agrarian society, they'd created a surplus of grains, fruits, and whatever else they grew. Fermentation seems like a natural way to utilize that surplus.
 
rk911 said:
those substances are legal, cocaine, heroin, meth and even marijuana (at the federal level and in most states) are not.
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What does that even have to do with the question I asked that you're replying to? The question was about a post commanding everyone to stop (recreational) drug use, with no mention of legality.

Besides, consumption of marijuana and cocaine is legal in some nearby places (and conversely, alcohol is illegal in some places). No proof has been offered that the accident pilot's cocaine use was either recent or illegal.

choosing to use illegal substances reflects on character and exhibits poor decision making skills.
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Casting aspersions on others' character, by means of unsupported or demonstrably false assumptions, reflects on character and exhibits poor decision making skills.
 
acrophile said:
Besides, consumption of marijuana and cocaine is legal in some nearby places (and conversely, alcohol is illegal in some places). No proof has been offered that the accident pilot's cocaine use was either recent or illegal.
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Consumption of marijuana and cocaine is not legal anywhere in the United States, and alcohol is legal everywhere in the United States. This being Pilots of America, that seems to be an appropriate frame of reference for discussing legality.

And apropos of nothing, I've never seen a non-drug user vehemently defend drug use. Even legalization proponents who aren't themselves users don't usually justify actual use. I don't know if that is just my limited experience, or if it has some relation to the potentially poorer judgment of habitual drug users.
 
Lindberg said:
Consumption of marijuana and cocaine is not legal anywhere in the United States, and alcohol is legal everywhere in the United States. This being Pilots of America, that seems to be an appropriate frame of reference for discussing legality.

And apropos of nothing, I've never seen a non-drug user vehemently defend drug use. Even legalization proponents who aren't themselves users don't usually justify actual use. I don't know if that is just my limited experience, or if it has some relation to the potentially poorer judgment of habitual drug users.
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Shouldn't a free people be free to choose their state of mind? And why don't the keep your laws off my body folks go for legal drug use and legal prostitution? Killing unborn babies is cool, some brain cells you weren't going to use anyway- society and the law disapproves.:goofy:
 
Phoenix said:
Shouldn't a free people be free to choose their state of mind? And why don't the keep your laws off my body folks go for legal drug use and legal prostitution? Killing unborn babies is cool, some brain cells you weren't going to use anyway- society and the law disapproves.:goofy:
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it would be wonderful if the people who killed their own brain cells could confine killing to their own and not harming others.
 
Bob Noel said:
it would be wonderful if the people who killed their own brain cells could confine killing to their own and not harming others.
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Well killing for legal non prescription drugs is pretty rare. Alcohol kills bucketloads of non drinkers and that is plenty legal. Maybe it is bad cause the preacher said so. We should allow any drug use people want as long as they promise to register their drones. :rofl:
 
genna said:
Ethanol(the active ingredient in booze) has no health benefits. In fact, it is a poison... It is also very deadly if overdone(something that is quite easy to do).


Coffee is highly addictive and in high concentration(powder like cocaine), can easily kill you.
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Come on, man! Water is toxic if overdone. Oxygen can kill, too. Hyperventilation. So, there are two things right there that we cannot live without: water and air, and both can kill us if we get too much of them, just like that terrible, horrible alcohol and the other demon drugs! Damn it, I just won at the internet! :goofy:
 
I guess some of these pilots have never had a long night of hookers and blow... Evidently this guy has.
 
Lindberg said:
Consumption of marijuana and cocaine is not legal anywhere in the United States, and alcohol is legal everywhere in the United States. This being Pilots of America, that seems to be an appropriate frame of reference for discussing legality.

And apropos of nothing, I've never seen a non-drug user vehemently defend drug use. Even legalization proponents who aren't themselves users don't usually justify actual use. I don't know if that is just my limited experience, or if it has some relation to the potentially poorer judgment of habitual drug users.
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Rats. If I live in Colorado am I no longer a US citizen? I mean, hey, weed is everywhere here. It grows on school playgrounds and old women hand it out to grandchildren every day. It's legal here, sooooo......

Right here, me, this guy, is a non-drug user. Never smoked weed, eaten it, or otherwise imbibed, consumed or partaken in it. I will tell you straight up that I fully believe adults should be able to make their own choices regarding drugs and many other things. I make my choices, and I have my personal set of values. I don't expect everyone to share mine. I have made enough beer in my lifetime to float ships. I have drank less than that, but I love beer. I can go for days and days without having a drop of beer, then one day pour something really nice, yet only drink half of it. Other days maybe I'll have two or three beers wasting an afternoon watching football with friends. My choice. (Must point out here that I only ever choose good craft beer, though.:yes:) Anyway, to each their own, live and let live and all that. You want to do coke, have an abortion, and fly your drone off the departure end of your local airport? Go ahead. Your choice. You are the one that must face the consequences, though. And that's the kicker. If I (or anyone besides you) have to face the consequences of your choices then that's where things get messy, and usually legal action takes place.
 
Lachlan said:
Rats. If I live in Colorado am I no longer a US citizen? I mean, hey, weed is everywhere here. It grows on school playgrounds and old women hand it out to grandchildren every day. It's legal here, sooooo......
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No. It actually isn't. I'm sorry if you have been deceived about that.
Right here, me, this guy, is a non-drug user. Never smoked weed, eaten it, or otherwise imbibed, consumed or partaken in it. I will tell you straight up that I fully believe adults should be able to make their own choices regarding drugs and many other things.
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Thank you for proving my point. Advocating freedom to use is very different from advocating use. I've only ever seen people who use advocate other's use.
 
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Lachlan said:
Come on, man! Water is toxic if overdone. Oxygen can kill, too. Hyperventilation. So, there are two things right there that we cannot live without: water and air, and both can kill us if we get too much of them, just like that terrible, horrible alcohol and the other demon drugs! Damn it, I just won at the internet! :goofy:
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Yes. You saw my point, I was just sticking to obvious drugs. But sure. Almost anything can kill you if overdone.

Though I don't think its the oxygen that's a problem in hyperventilation. You can breathe 100% oxygen
 
I think people get the cause and effect mixed up here.

Cocaine was not the reason for poor fuel planning. He was probably doing blow because of same character traits that caused reckless fuel planning.

The "high" from blow is relatively short lasting, but the traces can be seen for quite a while. Unless he was doing it a few hours before the flight(which I understand he wasn't given the small amounts left in his system), he was not impaired by it.
 
Difficult to justify questionable behavior. Worse to be ones justifying questionable behavior with illegal conduct. Flying is the greatest expression of freedom.
 
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