Owners/ Maintenance / Education.

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
How many would be will to have 500 bucks added to their annual bill for the time spent answering the questions asked by the owner durning the maintenance of their aircraft.

I saw the shop rate of two of the FBOs here in puget sound, both were over 200 per hour. and both had policies of no owners in the shop.
 
I am convinced that an educated owner is a better customer, that is why I do owner assisted annuals, and allow customers to do maintenance under my super vision.

But the question how many are willing to pay more that privilege ?
 
yeah....yeah....:D

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Tom-D said:
How many would be will to have 500 bucks added to their annual bill for the time spent answering the questions asked by the owner durning the maintenance of their aircraft.



I saw the shop rate of two of the FBOs here in puget sound, both were over 200 per hour. and both had policies of no owners in the shop.
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If the shop owner is not factoring that into the hourly rate, then that is the shop owners problem.

A shop that doesn't allow me to ask questions for clarification and understanding and doesn't allow me in the shop to look at what they are doing so that I can better understand what is going on with my airplane is simply not going to get any of my business.

The $200/hour and no owners allowed sounds like big city chain FBO/MRO to me: i.e. Landmark/Signature. Not the kind of people I want working on a piston GA airplane.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
yeah....yeah....:D

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You make jokes, but it is pretty much true. lot's of shops use the excuse of not having liability insurance for customers on the shop floor, but in reality they don't want you harassing the mechanics. :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
If the shop owner is not factoring that into the hourly rate, then that is the shop owners problem.

A shop that doesn't allow me to ask questions for clarification and understanding and doesn't allow me in the shop to look at what they are doing so that I can better understand what is going on with my airplane is simply not going to get any of my business.

The $200/hour and no owners allowed sounds like big city chain FBO/MRO to me: i.e. Landmark/Signature. Not the kind of people I want working on a piston GA airplane.
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There's one no! or are just too cheap to pay for the knowledge you think is free?
 
Tom-D said:
There's one no! or are just too cheap to pay for the knowledge you think is free?
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Why should I pay more for something that has long been the standard with every shop I have worked with on both coasts?

IF the shop owner feels that taking the time to educate the owner is costing him money, then he can adjust his shop rate accordingly. But an extra $100 an hour is way more than it is costing him and worth it to me.

I had a discussion a while back with a local engine shop owner. He was explaining that his labor rate was $95 an hour (about $20 above most other shops in the area). His justification was that his cost were higher than others to provide the engineering research and data subscriptions that were needed to provide the caliber of service he did.

I'm totally okay with that and while I don't use him for regular maintenance, he is the first person I go to when I need engine work.

So no, I'm not cheap.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why should I pay more for something that has long been the standard with every shop I have worked with on both coasts?

IF the shop owner feels that taking the time to educate the owner is costing him money, then he can adjust his shop rate accordingly. But an extra $100 an hour is way more than it is costing him and worth it to me.

I had a discussion a while back with a local engine shop owner. He was explaining that his labor rate was $95 an hour (about $20 above most other shops in the area). His justification was that his cost were higher than others to provide the engineering research and data subscriptions that were needed to provide the caliber of service he did.

I'm totally okay with that and while I don't use him for regular maintenance, he is the first person I go to when I need engine work.

So no, I'm not cheap.
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I've always been willing to pay top dollar for someone who can provide exceptional service for critical parts.

I've never understood the "I want the cheapest fix possible" mindset. Buy an airplane you can actually afford, buddy.
 
The two IAs I work with will let me look, but really don't want me around to get in the way. One of the shops has a lot going on with turbines, twins and other interesting equipment. I don't feel comfortable walking around their shop.

I have a young 20 something A&P a couple of hangars down I'll give some cash to when I have a question or need a signature for the FAA. Pretty basic stuff as I am mostly a chicken under the cowling.

But, yea, I would pay $500 just to help and learn.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why should I pay more for something that has long been the standard with every shop I have worked with on both coasts?

More and more shops are stopping this practice and now the only the freelancer do this.
IF the shop owner feels that taking the time to educate the owner is costing him money, then he can adjust his shop rate accordingly. But an extra $100 an hour is way more than it is costing him and worth it to me.

When the shop rates go up customers go away.

I had a discussion a while back with a local engine shop owner. He was explaining that his labor rate was $95 an hour (about $20 above most other shops in the area). His justification was that his cost were higher than others to provide the engineering research and data subscriptions that were needed to provide the caliber of service he did.

This is true. a subscription to the electronic AD service once was $100 now the cheapest is 250.

I'm totally okay with that and while I don't use him for regular maintenance, he is the first person I go to when I need engine work.

So no, I'm not cheap.
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You avoided the question, "would you pay more for the owner assisted annuals and the ability to work under the supervision of your A&P or A&P-IA" ? that was the question prior to the thread creep.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I've never understood the "I want the cheapest fix possible" mindset. Buy an airplane you can actually afford, buddy.
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We all know the cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.

Want to buy a fixer upper ? are you willing to pay the extra money for the A&P to supervise? or do you believe that their time and knowledge should be free?
 
I guess I have been lucky. My background is in ARMY Helicopters as a crewchief. When I bought my plane I found a IA that was willing to do a owners assist. We told me to pull interior and call him, I called him a few hours later. He came into my hangar and couldn't believe how quick I had it tore down. After the inspection and a few repairs we told me to put it back together, I called him when I was done. He was impressed with the quickness of the work and quality. He started to call me to help him when he was busy. I got paid a few bucks and he tought me a lot along the way. I guess if you figured out what I used to make and what he was paying me I did pay a bit for the knowledge, it was time well spent.
 
If I take up 15 minutes of your time asking questions, I expect to get billed for the 15 minutes.
 
Tom-D said:
You avoided the question, "would you pay more for the owner assisted annuals and the ability to work under the supervision of your A&P or A&P-IA" ? that was the question prior to the thread creep.
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I would not pay more to do an owner assisted annual vs someone doing the annual. I also wouldn't be a patron of any shop (Airplane or otherwise) that when asked questions either up charge me or bill an increased rate.
 
This is why my A&P and IA do the annual in my hangar. It's a flat fee plus a flat fee per hour. I've been to shops where someone is paying for their plane's inspection and some yahoo who hangars nearby comes by several times a day to chew the IA's ear on other subjects while the IA is on the other guy's clock.

And if I'm paying per hour, the time spent answering my questions is included, it just takes longer and I'm willing to pay for it. But a flat rate of $500? No. I don't think I have $500 worth of questions to ask.


Edit: Besides, that's what I have YOU guys (forum) for. :wink2:
 
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How about this one Tom, if you're working on a aircraft which you aren't familiar with, do you discount your hourly rate, as the owner is also paying for you to educate yourself on his dime and with his aircraft?

If it's not your job to educate owners, how is it fare for a owner to pay to educate you?



Tom-D said:
You avoided the question, "would you pay more for the owner assisted annuals and the ability to work under the supervision of your A&P or A&P-IA" ? that was the question prior to the thread creep.
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No I wouldn't, I just would use someone who didn't try to charge me more money for something which I'm used to being included, plenty of APIAs out there who don't have a problem with 15 minutes worth of questions about a SB or AD, and/or a owner pulling access panels and plugs to save time.






Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If I take up 15 minutes of your time asking questions, I expect to get billed for the 15 minutes.
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:yes:


Timbeck2 said:
This is why my A&P and IA do the annual in my hangar. It's a flat fee plus a flat fee per hour. I've been to shops where someone is paying for their plane's inspection and some yahoo who hangars nearby comes by several times a day to chew the IA's ear on other subjects while the IA is on the other guy's clock.

And if I'm paying per hour, the time spent answering my questions is included, it just takes longer and I'm willing to pay for it. But a flat rate of $500? No. I don't think I have $500 worth of questions to ask.


Edit: Besides, that's what I have YOU guys (forum) for. :wink2:
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:yes:
 
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When I had my cherokee, I did owner-assisted for all but one annual. For me, part of the enjoyment of owning is participating in the maintenance. All the IAs and A&Ps were fine with owner-assisted (except that one A-hole). I considered them on the clock when they were working on the airplane or supervising me (which would include explanations/discussions).

The bigger problem were all the drive-by questions from other pilots/owners. The A&Ps were good about not charging me for time spent talking with other pilots/owners.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Bingo.....I was waiting for this answer. :yes::D
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Then it is OK for me to be working on your aircraft, then stop and give advice to some who just walked in.

Didn't you just pay for their education?
 
James331 said:
How about this one Tom, if you're working on a aircraft which you aren't familiar with,
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Hold it right there. I would not be.

Your premise is I would violate FAR 65.81. I would not.
 
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Luvrv8 said:
I guess I have been lucky. My background is in ARMY Helicopters as a crewchief. When I bought my plane I found a IA that was willing to do a owners assist. We told me to pull interior and call him, I called him a few hours later. He came into my hangar and couldn't believe how quick I had it tore down. After the inspection and a few repairs we told me to put it back together, I called him when I was done. He was impressed with the quickness of the work and quality. He started to call me to help him when he was busy. I got paid a few bucks and he tought me a lot along the way. I guess if you figured out what I used to make and what he was paying me I did pay a bit for the knowledge, it was time well spent.
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Many of us work that way, and of course we are impressed with many owner's abilities, but others not so much.
 
OkieAviator said:
I would not pay more to do an owner assisted annual vs someone doing the annual. I also wouldn't be a patron of any shop (Airplane or otherwise) that when asked questions either up charge me or bill an increased rate.
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one more no!
 
brian];1975012 said:
The two IAs I work with will let me look, but really don't want me around to get in the way. One of the shops has a lot going on with turbines, twins and other interesting equipment. I don't feel comfortable walking around their shop.

I have a young 20 something A&P a couple of hangars down I'll give some cash to when I have a question or need a signature for the FAA. Pretty basic stuff as I am mostly a chicken under the cowling.

But, yea, I would pay $500 just to help and learn.
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Wow a yes :)
 
Sometimes I help on my plane, sometimes I don't. My A&P/IA charges the same rate whether I help or not. Then again, I don't need to be babysat when he says, "take off or put on xyz part(s)." If we are both working on the plane, then it gets it out quicker and makes available another spot in his shop fr another plane to be worked on. Or if there's another plane in there, he can work on that one while I work on mine - which still makes one of the planes leave the shop earlier - freeing up a spot for another plane in his shop.
 
Tom-D said:
both. should I give my education/experience to you free?
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You aren't. You're giving it to me at shop rate. I only ask question about my plane I'm being billed for working on my plane.
 
Tom-D said:
Hold it right there. I would not be.

Your premise is I would violate FAR 65.81. I would not.
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I recall a Stinson you posted about once. I believe you learned quite a bit about 108s over the course of that.
 
I give my A&P who is also a pilot, air traffic advice as we work on my plane. Then afterwards a beer or two.

I say I break even.


I hope that after the annual coming up in March he'll quit finding screwed up stuff and asking, "did you do this?" Examples: A non-aircraft certified cotter pin holding the wheel nut on. I never touched it. He also found some wire under the panel that had electrical tape on it. I never touched that either.
 
Timbeck2 said:
This is why my A&P and IA do the annual in my hangar. It's a flat fee plus a flat fee per hour.
This is how charge, then I can take my time, and not feel like I'm padding the bill. simply a flat rate for the inspection.

I've been to shops where someone is paying for their plane's inspection and some yahoo who hangars nearby comes by several times a day to chew the IA's ear on other subjects while the IA is on the other guy's clock.

This irritates me to no end, the inconsiderate others who have no comprehension or cortices. and believe that they can impose.

And if I'm paying per hour, the time spent answering my questions is included, it just takes longer and I'm willing to pay for it. But a flat rate of $500? No. I don't think I have $500 worth of questions to ask.

the 500 was just an arbitrary number.


Edit: Besides, that's what I have YOU guys (forum) for. :wink2:
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As so far we have a bunch that believes what they have not paid for in the past, can't be charged for in the future.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If I take up 15 minutes of your time asking questions, I expect to get billed for the 15 minutes.
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When you call me to your hangar for a purpose, you can expect it.
When you walk into my shop while I'm busy doing another's work, will you have cash in hand?
 
Tom-D said:
When you call me to your hangar for a purpose, you can expect it.
When you walk into my shop while I'm busy doing another's work, will you have cash in hand?
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Nope, but you can bill me for it next time you work on my plane.
 
Guess I see this a bit from my experiences in IT. I have been and now I hire contractors to get work done. We go through times where we are the student in life and other time we are the teacher. Most of the time, I have a hard time telling the difference as the focus is just the hard work at hand.

What I can't stand are folks (regardless of industry) that talk a good game but really don't know their but from a hole in the ground. Right behind them are the time sucks that chew up your day. Not really a black and white scenario.

One thing for sure: there is a lot of value in knowledge.
 
Tom-D said:
I am convinced that an educated owner is a better customer, that is why I do owner assisted annuals, and allow customers to do maintenance under my super vision.

But the question how many are willing to pay more that privilege ?
Click to expand...

By asking this question are you wondering if you should charge more for an owner assisted annual? How much is a good, mechanically-inclined owner's help worth to you? I guess I just don't understand where you're going with the question.


I can understand someone trying to get work done and the owner is walking around the shop asking what everything is while you're flat on your back with your head under the panel. Those are the people who need to spend the extra $500. For the owners who know how to operate a screwdriver and safety wire pliers, they can be very valuable to you and in turn, themselves.
 
Timbeck2 said:
By asking this question are you wondering if you should charge more for an owner assisted annual? How much is a good, mechanically-inclined owner's help worth to you? I guess I just don't understand where you're going with the question.


I can understand someone trying to get work done and the owner is walking around the shop asking what everything is while you're flat on your back with your head under the panel. Those are the people who need to spend the extra $500. For the owners who know how to operate a screwdriver and safety wire pliers, they can be very valuable to you and in turn, themselves.
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IF if they do walk around bothering him, they take up his time, he spends more time working on the plane. He bills per hour. He never comes out behind on the deal.
 
Agreed which is what I was saying earlier on, if I ask questions and it takes longer I pay more. I was just wondering where the trunk of this question tree is.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Agreed which is what I was saying earlier on, if I ask questions and it takes longer I pay more. I was just wondering where the trunk of this question tree is.
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It's just Tom being Tom. He's not happy unless he's unhappy.
 
I did owner-assisted on mine and saved some money over what it would have cost to pay for the whole thing to be done by the AP/IA. However, even if I wouldn't have saved a dime, it would have been well worth it. Although I am mechanically skilled (restored cars, built engines etc) the world of aircraft was a foreign concept. After the annual that is no longer the case. It gave me a lot of confidence in the aircraft and my ability to understand what is going on.

As I recall, I was charged for a flat annual fee, parts, labor for things he did, and then .2-.3 hrs for things he showed me how to do, allowed me to do then checked my work.

As far as the original question, I am not sure about paying more for owner assisted, but if I tie him up for extended periods with questions I would expect to pay.

I also looked for opportunities to help the shop like sweeping up, cleaning up tools, and I offered to buy the shop lunch the last day of my annual (they declined but thanked me, it's a larger shop and there might have been some sort of gratuity issue).
 
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