"if you like your doctor we don't give a ****."

JoseCuervo said:
United Healthcare was $35.05 per share on Dec 15, 2015.


Today, United Healthcare is $117.89.


I have to think that "hero Obama and his democrat sycophants" have dropped a pretty amazing windfall on Health Insurance companies and their stockholders.
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Huh....:confused::confused::confused::confused:...

Did the stock go up throughout the day since TODAY is Dec :rolleyes:15,2015..
 
JoseCuervo said:
You agree that costs need to be halved?


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Do not know , we either let the "Free Market" take care of the costs naturally or impose,regulated, cost controls (Socialized Medicine). The problem is , when you try different different combinations of the 2, like we are doing now, you are bound to get unsatisfactory results of differing degrees. Personally , I do not have a preference except to say more choices are usually better than less choices.

Cheers
 
N801BH said:
Huh....:confused::confused::confused::confused:...

Did the stock go up throughout the day since TODAY is Dec :rolleyes:15,2015..
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Oops. Damn autocorrect.

2010.

A 5 year period of outstanding returns for health insurer since passage of Obamacare.


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ralarcon said:
Do not know , we either let the "Free Market" take care of the costs naturally or impose,regulated, cost controls (Socialized Medicine). The problem is , when you try different different combinations of the 2, like we are doing now, you are bound to get unsatisfactory results of differing degrees.

Cheers
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Can you look at the graph from your article and determine if costs in the US are significantly higher than other countries?

Have you ever seen a free market in healthcare in the US?


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"Have you ever seen a free market in healthcare in the US?"

Yes, first half of the 20'th Century, and the countries on the graph have essentially, single payer systems , for most of their population. And yes our costs are significantly higher, and would refer you back to the article for the reason for these costs.

Cheers
 
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:dunno:I don t know what all the fuss is about. Everything has to be paid for somewhere down the line. Some where along the line human beings got the notion that they should be entitled to health care just because the technology is there. That is somewhat like saying I am entitled to a private jet because it exists. Someone had to come up with that technology, which costs dollars, and not all of it was done out of the goodness of their heart, in our society profit is the motivator. Take that away and the incentive to inovate ceases. That being said, the majority of our society has decided that people without health insurance should be able to get it, through subsidies, free, whatever, otherwise this monstrosity would not be there. It is now in existance. And, the costs for it still must be paid. Good luck on doing away with it, like gun ownership the genie is out of the bottle. Just another cost of living. It should not be surprising the government can t run it efficiently. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
 
Vern B said:
:dunno:I don t know what all the fuss is about. Everything has to be paid for somewhere down the line. Some where along the line human beings got the notion that they should be entitled to health care just because the technology is there. That is somewhat like saying I am entitled to a private jet because it exists. Someone had to come up with that technology, which costs dollars, and not all of it was done out of the goodness of their heart, in our society profit is the motivator. Take that away and the incentive to inovate ceases. That being said, the majority of our society has decided that people without health insurance should be able to get it, through subsidies, free, whatever, otherwise this monstrosity would not be there. It is now in existance. And, the costs for it still must be paid. Good luck on doing away with it, like gun ownership the genie is out of the bottle. Just another cost of living. It should not be surprising the government can t run it efficiently. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
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I have made similar arguments with friends. How does a new medical device or drug that was invented just yesterday become a right for you to have today? Makes no sense. New rights don't pop into existence just because a new drug or device does.
 
Vern B said:
:dunno:I don t know what all the fuss is about. Everything has to be paid for somewhere down the line. Some where along the line human beings got the notion that they should be entitled to health care just because the technology is there. That is somewhat like saying I am entitled to a private jet because it exists. Someone had to come up with that technology, which costs dollars, and not all of it was done out of the goodness of their heart, in our society profit is the motivator. Take that away and the incentive to inovate ceases. That being said, the majority of our society has decided that people without health insurance should be able to get it, through subsidies, free, whatever, otherwise this monstrosity would not be there. It is now in existance. And, the costs for it still must be paid. Good luck on doing away with it, like gun ownership the genie is out of the bottle. Just another cost of living. It should not be surprising the government can t run it efficiently. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
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This would be correct. :yesnod:

Cheers
 
Fearless Tower said:
Correct. But when your house catches fire, the fire department shows up and deals with it. Do you get a bill?

When someone breaks into your house and the cops show up.....do you get a bill?

When an ambulance gets called......you or your insurance do get a bill, and it is absolutely ridiculous.
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Long ago it was decided police protection and fire protection was a good thing. It cost money so it was decided a tax would be levied to spread the costs over a wide populaiion. Ambulances came along later and was not included in that tax in most instances, thus the fees. Welcome to our new health care. This will be the new norm.
 
ralarcon said:
"Have you ever seen a free market in healthcare in the US?"

Yes, first half of the 20'th Century, and the countries on the graph have essentially, single payer systems , for most of their population. And yes our costs are significantly higher, and would refer you back to the article for the reason for these costs.

Cheers
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You mean when the life expectancy in the US was 46 years for a male?

Yeah, the good old days..... But, I don't remember the first half of the 20th century. And, I would guess any memory you have of the first half of the 20th century is selective, at best.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have made similar arguments with friends. How does a new medical device or drug that was invented just yesterday become a right for you to have today? Makes no sense. New rights don't pop into existence just because a new drug or device does.
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There you go...... advocating for Sarah Palin's Death Panels....
 
nddons said:
And now you get to subsidize people who DO "buy" insurance. Congratulations.
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Seems like a much better tradeoff.

Something to be said for every individual having to take responsibility to get the insurance.
 
Vern B said:
Long ago it was decided police protection and fire protection was a good thing. It cost money so it was decided a tax would be levied to spread the costs over a wide populaiion. Ambulances came along later and was not included in that tax in most instances, thus the fees. Welcome to our new health care. This will be the new norm.
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Our ambulances are provided by a local Ambulance District with taxing authority. We have some levy. I think my taxes are $300 or so per year for the ambulance.

Never used it, no idea if there are extra fees beyond the taxes.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Our ambulances are provided by a local Ambulance District with taxing authority. We have some levy. I think my taxes are $300 or so per year for the ambulance.

Never used it, no idea if there are extra fees beyond the taxes.
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You can bet your ass they will "fee you to death"....

Wealth redistribution and all...:mad2::mad2:
 
N801BH said:
You can bet your ass they will "fee you to death"....

Wealth redistribution and all...:mad2::mad2:
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Probably would not care about the fees if I needed the service.


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Btw txflyer. Have you talked to your doc about joining the bcbs blue choice network ? With bcbs dropping the individual ppo he may br interested in doing that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not really.

I was a volunteer firefighter in a small town in Maine. Ambulance service was also volunteer. No one got a bill when we showed up, but the ambulance bills tended to be closer to $1000 per call....and that was over 15 years ago. I have no idea what they charge now.

There was no ambulance staff being paid 24/7.
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I am sure your volunteer ambulance company was wildly profitable then.


So, how many people who received the $1000 bill actually paid $1000 ?
How much did medicare pay for a part B benefiicary ?
How much did the dominant health insurer pay ?
How much did 'uninsured Bob' pay when he fell out at the liquor store again ?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
My FIL, a healthy 84 yo, had a minor problem that required outpatient surgery. As a result of a test, the specialist "feeding frenzy" began. A stent was installed. Then a pacemaker. Six months into this, because none of the "specialist's" communicated with one another, they had him so ill on medication side effects that he could hardly walk. This was a man who played 18 holes of golf, walkedthe course and pulled his bag on a cart.

Some of these idiots were proposing invasive heart surgery, on an 84 year old, for no other reason than to collect fees.

Finally, his primary care guy said enough. Took him off the new miracle drugs (there's something to those disclaimers on the TV ads) put him on aspirin. Changed his diet, gave him some vitamin supplements.
Now, he's back to playing golf.

There's something to be said for having a PCP, a quarterback to call the play. Otherwise, you're just red meat for the system. Everybody has their hand out.
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I could give you a long list of f###ups by gatekeepers in those 'universal healthcare' paradises that left family and friends with disabilities that could have been easily avoided by timely referral to a competent specialist.

Your dad had the choice to decline over-aggressive treatment, he also had the choice to obtain a second opinion prior to procedures or expensive medications. If your only option is the government clinic and the doc says 'no referral for you', you are SOL even if you know that you need to see a neurologist/spine surgeon/cardiologist etc. Choice is good. Sometimes it is more expensive.
 
weilke said:
I am sure your volunteer ambulance company was wildly profitable then.


So, how many people who received the $1000 bill actually paid $1000 ?
How much did medicare pay for a part B benefiicary ?
How much did the dominant health insurer pay ?
How much did 'uninsured Bob' pay when he fell out at the liquor store again ?
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Who cares? We all know that the actual price paid varies from person to person just like airline seats.

That has nothing to do with the fact that one entity is charging a lot of money for providing a life saving service while another is not.

You keep trying to justify the practice while ignoring my point: I simply believe that the ambulance services should be funded by the municipality just like FD and Police and not a service billable to the user. And before you even start, I acknowledge that yes, your taxes will have to account for that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Who cares? We all know that the actual price paid varies from person to person just like airline seats.

That has nothing to do with the fact that one entity is charging a lot of money for providing a life saving service while another is not.

You keep trying to justify the practice while ignoring my point: I simply believe that the ambulance services should be funded by the municipality just like FD and Police and not a service billable to the user. And before you even start, I acknowledge that yes, your taxes will have to account for that.
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As I mentioned, in some localities ambulance service is provided free to the end user. This is mostly in areas where it is provided by a city fire department or in locations where a local ambulance district with taxing authority just takes it out of peoples property tax bill.

The muncipalities that dont bill leave a lot of money on the table. Medicare and most health insurers pay for ambulance service. An agency has to make a decision. If they want to bill medicare, they are required to bill everyone. It is a bit different with fire service. Regular property insurance either includes no allowance or only a small amount to cover a fire response fee. If a department bills the loaded cost of a fire response, the homeowner may be stuck with a burned down house AND a $5,000 fire department bill.


I am not ignoring your point. I disagree with it. Different states, different communties decide to fund their emergency services in different ways. I dont believe there should be a blanket expectation that the service is paid out of general tax revenues. Fire protection is mainly a tool to reduce property insurance rates. The fairest approach is a levy on property insurance premiums, that way owners of expensive properties see the biggest benefit of a highly rated fire service. If loss ratios are higher and premiums go up, so does the funding for the fire service.
 
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N801BH said:
Ha...

PC Barnum had it correct....

There is a fool born every minute....;););)
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Pretty sure, if I need an ambulance, I ain't in a position to negotiate...... Or care about the price.


Yeah, pre negotiating my ambulance fees wouldn't have been a productive use of my time.


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JoseCuervo said:
Didn't think you understood it. Thanks for confirming.

Had regulations before. Still have regulations.

They were not in a "free market" before. Keep tilting at imaginary windmills.
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That may well be The Most Ridiculous Post of the Decade. Congratulations.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Well, I can only surmise, by reading what YOU wrote, that you don't understand how to diagnose a nail in the foot, you don't understand what medical treatment you should seek, and you are better served by an HMO.

OR....

You willfully spread misinformation and don't bother operating in the truth.


But, that is all just based on what YOU wrote. :yes:


And, if it helps you to discuss these topics and think about as you try and form an opinion and a mechanism to survive life's daily challenges to try and create labels about other people and to fabricate imaginary personas, then please go ahead. It is all about you.
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Are you a doctor? How do you know a nail in the foot doesn't need a podiatrist?
 
txflyer said:
Are you a doctor? How do you know a nail in the foot doesn't need a podiatrist?
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Because your PCP saw it and said so. Suck it up cupcake. Don't burden the rest of us with your unwarranted medical costs. Limping is cool now.
 
Clark1961 said:
Because your PCP saw it and said so. Suck it up cupcake. Don't burden the rest of us with your unwarranted medical costs. Limping is cool now.
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You gave me a chuckle on that one. :lol:

I'll state some true personal facts for JC and the progressive tooth fairies.

Fact: In 2014 we were paying $450/month for a $10,000 deductible plan for my wife and I with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2015 we were slammed with a ppo plan with a $6000.00 deductible that cost $1024/month with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2016 we are being slammed with an HMO plan with a $10,000 deductible that will cost $950/month with no dental and no vision.

These are our personal health insurance facts.
 
txflyer said:
You gave me a chuckle on that one. :lol:

I'll state some true personal facts for JC and the progressive tooth fairies.

Fact: In 2014 we were paying $450/month for a $10,000 deductible plan for my wife and I with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2015 we were slammed with a ppo plan with a $6000.00 deductible that cost $1024/month with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2016 we are being slammed with an HMO plan with a $10,000 deductible that will cost $950/month with no dental and no vision.

These are our personal health insurance facts.
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You are obviously lying, it is all 'anecdotal' and you are not telling 'the rest of the story'.

Now, on the upside, with your new coverage, you are now covered for maternity, contraceptives and you have 'mental health parity'. Oh, and you get a free pap smear once a year.
 
The Police and Fire Dept stuff was hilarious. Police departments rely more and more on grant money all the time, while also aggressively seeking revenue via minor traffic infractions.

Most rural areas are starting to utilize Posse volunteers for various roles.

Fire Departments, especially rural volunteer ones, aren't even close to covered by their tax bases anymore and survive only on hand me down gear from city departments and volunteer labor.

Most of that labor force also pays thousands in personal gear and training/certification fees out of their own pockets, to even be able to serve.

All fire departments around here are moving toward "bill anyone who received services who doesn't live in the tax district" now also. Denver started it. Suburbs are following suit.

(Most FDs spend far more time on MVAs than on structure and other fires. Orders of magnitude more time.)

The quaint notion that Ambulances are somehow bad because they charge users -- vs PD and FD with massive tax base dollars flowing, who still can't meet their expenses... and are charging more and more directly all the time, is laughable.

Come have a car wreck in the City and County of Denver and see how many bills you receive in the mail. It won't just be for the Ambulance. I promise.

And I suspect more and more cities will opt to do the same as time goes on.

Let's not even mention the over $2M the City has paid out to victims of a single PD officer's repeated assaults on those he serves, let alone keeping the legal staff to defend him. In the last four or five years they've paid out close to $10M in taxpayer dollars after losing cases they took through the full court process defending officers. There's a cost to bad hiring, and it's paid by the people who were supposedly being served. Kinda nice setup really. No city liability. Criminal liability the people pay for on both sides of the aisle at court. What a great setup, for the lawyers anyway.

They have little choice really, the Union won't allow them to fire anyone. Hell, they already bought body cams at millions of dollars and the union is threatening not to wear them until they can use it as leverage to renegotiate the contract again.

Denverites pay a LOT for PD. Tons more than simplistic "pay for PD services via taxes".

They don't pay much for FD, until a building fire alarm doesn't work properly for a few days. Then they pay cold cash for a DFD off-duty person to maintain a fire watch in any commercial building without active monitoring.

Going rate is $250/hr for someone to walk around once an hour with a clipboard and check off "Building not on fire".

Denver does not allow private companies to handle it unless the FD has no personnel who want overtime.

Any private company wanting to be certified to pick up where they leave off, pays DFD thousands in cash for "certification". Closer to tens of thousands depending on how many people go through the course.

Remember. It's a course in walking around and noticing if the building is on fire. 24/7. Until the phone lines are fixed or the panel is replaced.

I believe most of our county Sheriffs also send bills for serving papers these days. I'd have to check.

PD/FD "free!?l. LMAO. Not even close. The Ambulance is a WAY better deal at $1000 per occurrence.

PD response times where I live run about 30 minutes. FD response time is however quick my buddy Bob can drive from his house two miles from here to the station also two miles from here and get his ass over here. Ambulance is the same unless you need advanced life support. In that case they'd probably drive you halfway into town or call for a chopper.

Friend who's had a 10 minute chopper ride said he was surprised it was only $10,000.
 
1600vw said:
Not sure or don't want to? I spelled it out. Our health care should not be for profit. If we loose some doctors well, we did not need those kinds of doctors anyway. I want a doctor who cares about me and not an insurance company. I am lucky and found one. She has spent 4 hours with me one day. She told me the insurance companies give her grieve because of this. She said she was told that she should only spend so many mins with each patient. She said I do what it takes and not what the insurance companies tell me.

Tony
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How's your back doing, by the way. Are you out of the hospital? Have you been able to resolve your Doctor issues? I hope you are doing well. Sell the airplanes yet?
 
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JoseCuervo said:
Pretty sure, if I need an ambulance, I ain't in a position to negotiate...... Or care about the price.


Yeah, pre negotiating my ambulance fees wouldn't have been a productive use of my time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You said " Our ambulances are provided by a local Ambulance District with taxing authority. We have some levy. I think my taxes are $300 or so per year for the ambulance.

Never used it, no idea if there are extra fees beyond the taxes. "


Taxes are to provide you with a defined service and you pay AHEAD of time for that contract.. Also, as a tax, you CANNOT opt out.. You HAVE to pay..


So, comes time for this ambulance ride to the hospital you prepaid for and common sense would say you don't own a dime..... But you seem to not care about all the EXTRA fees they tack on... YOu are the kind of people the guv loves as you don't question their mafia like tactics of extortion..

To put it simply.. Suppose you go down to your local Kmart and buy a burrito machine Jose.... And pay for it and put it on layaway.... And you come back months later to pick it up....

And Kmart then adds to your bill fees like.

Store access fee = 45.00
Parking fee = 37.00
Security fee = 74.00
CS assistance fee = 65.00
Storage fee = 101.00

So now you 29 dollar Burrito machine you bought to make your Hispanic family their treats finally costs 351.00..:rolleyes::rolleyes:..

Ps... You CANNOT use your food stamps to pay for it either..:no:..

Well, unless your daughter is running the register at Kmart and scams the guv by entering a "food item" code...:mad2::mad2::mad2:..
 
Bob Noel said:
Do people not understand what insurance is?

Would you expect to get fire insurance for your house after the house burned downed?

Would you expect to get car insurance for your car after is was stolen?
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No, but I expect to get insurance when the house is rebuilt. I expect to get insurance when I get a replacement car.

But when I get a new heart valve, no coverage after that if you switch employers or retire early? Pre-ACA, not so much.

Spare us the medical welfare BS.

I sincerely hope that some of you and the rest of the "**** you, you're on your own crowd" find yourselves in same position some day. Perhaps it will give you a little better perspective......


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ggroves said:
I sincerely hope that some of you and the rest of the "**** you, you're on your own crowd" find yourselves in same position some day. Perhaps it will give you a little better perspective......
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Given how you've characterized my position, you have absolutely no clue.
 
txflyer said:
You gave me a chuckle on that one. :lol:

I'll state some true personal facts for JC and the progressive tooth fairies.

Fact: In 2014 we were paying $450/month for a $10,000 deductible plan for my wife and I with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2015 we were slammed with a ppo plan with a $6000.00 deductible that cost $1024/month with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2016 we are being slammed with an HMO plan with a $10,000 deductible that will cost $950/month with no dental and no vision.

These are our personal health insurance facts.
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Did you or your spouse cross an age threshhold? Every five years pretty much everybody gets a substantial bump. When we crossed 55, it was easily a $400 a month. Nothing to do with he ACA, as it wasn't yet in place.
 
txflyer said:
You gave me a chuckle on that one. :lol:

I'll state some true personal facts for JC and the progressive tooth fairies.

Fact: In 2014 we were paying $450/month for a $10,000 deductible plan for my wife and I with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2015 we were slammed with a ppo plan with a $6000.00 deductible that cost $1024/month with dental and vision.

Fact: January 1, 2016 we are being slammed with an HMO plan with a $10,000 deductible that will cost $950/month with no dental and no vision.

These are our personal health insurance facts.
Click to expand...

Those aren't all the facts.

Lots of stuff drives pricing on insurance besides the deductible.

Like any other item, consumers need to shop around for the best value proposition for them.
 
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