Incipient spin - YIKES!

flyingcheesehead said:
it could be argued that if you're not comfortable with the maneuvers, you shouldn't be flying solo at all. If you're not comfortable with stall recoveries, for instance, how are you going to react when you enter one inadvertently?
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...argued??...man, I thought that was the standard...

...anyway, it used to be. As the regulation implies...and good moral ethics demands.

How can you send a guy out and not be confident that he can do an intentional stall and recover? If he can't keep it together to do it intentionally, you have to question his ability to keep it together if he accidently does it.
 
in terms of Aerobatic schools for getting spin awareness training, general aerobatic, unusual attitudes, etc. training for a private pilot, where are the best places to go?

I know the place Bill Kershner started, Ace Aerobatic has a good reputation. What others do you all have experience with?
 
I'll bet good money that more people have died from spin training than from actual recoverable spins (I've been told that most spin/stall situations occur turning base to final at an altitude too low for recovery). Stall awareness, to keep you away from the dark side of the envelope, seems more likely to keep you out of danger. Spin training does sound like fun, though.
 
steingar said:
I'll bet good money that more people have died from spin training than from actual recoverable spins (I've been told that most spin/stall situations occur turning base to final at an altitude too low for recovery). Stall awareness, to keep you away from the dark side of the envelope, seems more likely to keep you out of danger. Spin training does sound like fun, though.
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I disagree. Spin training should do two things for you. One, you learn to recognize the potential for a spin in any given attitude. It can be from straight and level flight into a stall, slow flight, level turns, climbing and descending turns, slipping and skidding turns or even inverted. Two, you learn to understand what is happening as you enter the spin and as the spin develops. You see the visual ques and the instruments. You learn to react with instinct and without panic.

And, once you get past the initial shock of what is happening it is fun. Just don't have the CFI do any rolls on the way back to the airport if ate the wrong things earlier that day. :)
 
KennyFlys said:
I disagree. Spin training should do two things for you. One, you learn to recognize the potential for a spin in any given attitude. It can be from straight and level flight into a stall, slow flight, level turns, climbing and descending turns, slipping and skidding turns or even inverted. Two, you learn to understand what is happening as you enter the spin and as the spin develops. You see the visual ques and the instruments. You learn to react with instinct and without panic.

And, once you get past the initial shock of what is happening it is fun. Just don't have the CFI do any rolls on the way back to the airport if ate the wrong things earlier that day. :)
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I have always suspected that the rumor/statistic that claimed there were more losses of life attributed to spin training than to inadvertent spins were the result of students practicing spins solo. I do know that when spin demonstrations were required on the PPL practical test it was common to spend a lot of time deliberately spinning in airplanes that probably didn't have much of a climb rate so the entry altitudes might have been fairly low as well.
 
lancefisher said:
I have always suspected that the rumor/statistic that claimed there were more losses of life attributed to spin training than to inadvertent spins were the result of students practicing spins solo. I do know that when spin demonstrations were required on the PPL practical test it was common to spend a lot of time deliberately spinning in airplanes that probably didn't have much of a climb rate so the entry altitudes might have been fairly low as well.
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Valid point. I'm betting that has been a huge safety issue.

We initially climb to 6,000 or so and our "hard deck" is 2,500. All altitudes are AGL with the alimeter set at zero without regard for the barometric pressure. If we cannot clearly complete a manuever while still above hard deck, we climb up again.

Although parachutes are not required for spin training, we use them. But I'm also doing upset recovery training as well as some areobatic manuevers just to build overall flight skill.
 
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jesse said:
How is that different? Counteract the spin with the rudder and reduce the loading on the wings by pushing the yoke forward.

It should all be one fast movement. Throttle should already be in the hand. Pull it to idle. Full Opposite Rudder. and yoke forward briskly.
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Depends on the aircraft. Some aircraft require aileron into the direction of the spin. Some aircraft require you to neutralize all controls. Then there's the inverted spin recovery. Most aircraft will recovery if you just let go and neutralize the controls.
 
Patch said:
Depends on the aircraft. Some aircraft require aileron into the direction of the spin. Some aircraft require you to neutralize all controls. Then there's the inverted spin recovery. Most aircraft will recovery if you just let go and neutralize the controls.
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Everything depends on the aircraft. I was questioning why a typical GA Piper is so different than a typical GA Cessna. I doubt there is a certified GA airplane that requires aileron into the spin for recovery.

I think that teaching a checklist for spin recovery is bad. That's just my opinion. Spin recovery can be a very natural feeling. This is what you want it to be.
 
Ken Ibold said:
In typical fixed gear/prop singles like Skyhawks etc, just let go of everything and retard power, and it'll fly out of it. Sometimes you have to nudge rudder opposite the spin.
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I wish I could be that calm in a spin!

Did spins a few times with two CFIs - they were a blast, but the first one scared the poo out of me. It is amazing how quickly it goes from stall to spin...

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
jesse said:
Everything depends on the aircraft. I was questioning why a typical GA Piper is so different than a typical GA Cessna. I doubt there is a certified GA airplane that requires aileron into the spin for recovery.

I think that teaching a checklist for spin recovery is bad. That's just my opinion. Spin recovery can be a very natural feeling. This is what you want it to be.
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It depends on the wing design and tail. Symmetric wing? Swept wing? Large rudder?
 
Patch said:
It depends on the wing design and tail. Symmetric wing? Swept wing? Large rudder?
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Please point out a CERTIFIED GA airplane that requires pro aileron movement to recover from a spin.

I'm not sure what you are trying to point out--I was asking him why a Cherokee is different than a Cessna. I have flown both and I don't recall there being anything special about the Cherokee.
 
jesse said:
Please point out a CERTIFIED GA airplane that requires pro aileron movement to recover from a spin.
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You're the one putting the requirements on this. I never said GA. The T-38 is one such aircraft.
 
Patch said:
You're the one putting the requirements on this. I never said GA. The T-38 is one such aircraft.
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We were talking about Cessna/Piper. I wanted to know what was so different. You jump in saying stuff about pro spin aileron. Pro spin aileron is not something I'd advise as recovery for a Cessna.

If you've spun a Cessna you know that most of the time it will develop into a spiraling dive. Pro spin aileron isn't going to do much except help you spiral in that dive. The spin isn't dangerous--that almost straight nose down fast dive is.
 
jesse said:
We were talking about Cessna/Piper. I wanted to know what was so different. You jump in saying stuff about pro spin aileron. Pro spin aileron is not something I'd advise as recovery for a Cessna.

If you've spun a Cessna you know that most of the time it will develop into a spiraling dive. Pro spin aileron isn't going to do much except help you spiral in that dive. The spin isn't dangerous--that almost straight nose down fast dive is.
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No, I said that different aircraft have different spin recovery methods. For a Cessna, you can just let go and it'll make a few rotations and fly out of it. Opposite rudder will expedite things, but spin recoveries in most GA aircraft aren't that cosmic.
 
Patch said:
but spin recoveries in most GA aircraft aren't that cosmic.
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Exactly. We were talking about typical GA airplanes. This is why I wanted to know what was so different between the two birds.
 
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