What is happening to us?

EdFred said:
I'm the last of the local single people I know, and the guys have all been castrated by their wives. "I'd like to go with you but the wife says..."

I'm not one to just go fart around in the pattern or go for a 50 mile food run. If I'm gonna go somewhere, I'm gonna go somewhere. But I've grown tired of solo flights. I've flown to and landed in all of the contiguous 48 solo. I've been to both coasts and the Gulf solo. It gets boring as hell to go somewhere, eat dinner alone, sleep in the hotel alone, and then get up and fly another 500 miles alone. I have a map of the US above my desk at work, and pretty much look at it every day and think, maybe I'll fly to (pick a spot) this weekend. "**** it, I'm not going to spend the night in a hotel in (pick a spot) alone this weekend, I'll save the money."
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Maybe if you weren't such a prick people would go with you?? ;) :lol:


:rofl: KIDDING! :rofl:

BTW, I travel solo also. Unlike you, I like the company! :D
 
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BGF_Yankee said:
Sit around any airport around my location and you'll hear the same ol' rhetoric day in and day out, seven days a week. All I ever hear about is how good it used to be, pilots today know nothing about flying, and how doing away with the third class medical is the most critical issue in flying today. I say BS. I said it in another thread and I'll say it again...I hope when my time comes, I'll be smart enough to know that it's time to hang it up.

My medical renewal this year was by far the most thorough I've had in awhile, and I will admit it, I had a scare. Luckily it was found to be nothing but my diet causing bad readings. If I can pass the medical, so can most other people, I guarantee it. If you can't, you may not need to be flying. I do not agree with the AOPA agenda when it comes to this topic. Are there exceptions? Always. But not typically, at least not from what I see everyday. Do the rules need re-examination when it comes to the third class medical? Probably. That I can get behind. Airspace everywhere is getting busier though, even the uncontrolled kind.
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110% :yes:

Get out there and FLY! I think Jay nailed it! Stop listening to all the negative people! Gas is CHEAP! I just filled up my 100 gallon tank for $2.35 / gallon. :eek:

It is 65F here today, light winds, no bugs, perfect for flying.
 
jesse said:
The Spin Zone is not moderated. We all have better things to do with our time then attempt to manage the maturity level of grown adults. If you don't like it don't look at it. There's a reason it's opt in./QUOTE]

Had to go look when I found out there was a 'Spin Zone'...signed up, 5 minutes was plenty of time to decide to opt back out.

Totally agree with Jay's original premise...get out there and fly. We had the 182 at 3 coasts this year (the 3rd coast is a regional joke...we call the Great Lakes the North Coast)

Jim
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Several years ago we had a winter that was quite warm, in the low to high 40's all the time and I flew the wings off my plane. The last several years not so much: when it gets dark sooner and its 20* and MVFR. . .well I have to pick my days.

Planning a trip to coastal New England after catching the air show at Westover AFB this Spring, we just need wx to cooperate!

To Jay's point, I keep an eye on the classifieds forum and have bought a number of nice aviation related items that way. However, the last year or two it seems like the ad count is down and there's just not much out there in the offing. Is this also a symptom of decreased activity?
 
cowman said:
Most young people I know can't really afford it or at least would have a hard time finding room in the budget. If they could they'd be renting or in a club...

Then consider for a family of 4 + full fuel & bags for a few days is going to be very close if not over gross weight on the most common 4 seat GA planes.

Oh it's expensive.

Also, it's a gigantic pain in the butt. Takes darn near a year for most people to get a PPL and somewhere around $8-10k. Unless you're wanting a career, you are probably going to want the airplane for going places. So now VFR you finally launch with your family towards a vacation spot.... a day late because low ceilings. Then when you get there after spending 4x more on fuel than the car would have cost you rent a car. You have your fun, then it's time to home but.... noooope it's overcast 800 so we're stuck for another day. Then the next day it's supposed to be VFR in the morning so you go to the FBO and turn in your rental car. Oops still no go, but it's supposed to clear up. So you sit in the FBO for 5 hours with your ****ed off family until the weather finally clears and go home... pay another massive fuel bill, etc.

Well ok that was a bad trip... next month wow a week of clear weather all over the country. You hop in and go, have a great time, get in the plane to go and... no start. Your magneto is dead. Oh and it's saturday and no mechanics will be around till Mon morning. Another 2 days stuck.... then $1500 in repairs later you can finally go home.

The point being with all the expense and effort and difficulty you have to REALLY want to fly.
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:yeah that

Spent over 30 grand last year for engine overhaul & annual. No one in their right mind would spend that much money on car maintenance. I spent a fortune to overhaul an engine with 1950s technology when I could have bought a brand new car with state of the art technology. Just doesn't make financial sense.

Look at when I got my PPL back in 94. Aircraft (C-150) was only $42 per hr, fuel $1.98 per gal and instructor $15 per hr. Today, all of those numbers are at least doubled and in some cases tripled.

Couple years ago I had both mags replaced for roughly $900 a piece. My mech said just a few years prior they were half that.

Years ago we didn't have all the distractions that we have today. Internet and video games. Why fly the real thing when you can fly electrons around on a screen for a fraction of the cost?

Another perfect example on the decline in GA was some overtime I did out in Marion County SC last weekend. Apparently all the hangers are full of aircraft but in 3 days of being there, the only aircraft I saw take off was a CAP C-182. People just don't have the disposable income to keep up with the rising operating costs.

In 1979 GA flew over 38,000 hrs. In 2009 that number was just over 20,000 hrs. Pilot population also went from around 800,000 to around 600,000. While airlines and corporate are flying more, private GA is slowly dying. It's not going to get any better anytime soon.
 
Jay Honeck said:
More to the point: Why do people own airplanes, with all the attendant fixed costs, and NOT fly them? What, exactly, is the point?
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The point, obviously, is to have an airplane available when you need it. If someone can eat the low utilization, I'm not counting his pocket change.

For a working man, unless he has a business at a certain location, he isn't going to fly every day. Not to travel too far in search of an example, I managed 54 hours in the 2014.

When I went to Cal Black, the sky was dark with airplanes. At one point I looked down, and there was a typical Utah canyon there. And someone was tooling through it in a 170 with square wingtips (well, it could be a very old 172, but I think I saw the gear). Of course it's only a short season and the peak of flying comes to September.
 
I'm 56 and self employed so that means the guys I hang with at the airport Monday thru Friday are all 65 or older and retired. So I'm the young whipper snapper most the time.

Flying is expensive, time consuming, fraught with peril, and brain taxing. Not a hobby most people are willing to commit that much stress over.

You gotta love it. And first and foremost, be able to afford it. :redface:
 
Velocity173 said:
:yeah that

Spent over 30 grand last year for engine overhaul & annual. No one in their right mind would spend that much money on car maintenance. I spent a fortune to overhaul an engine with 1950s technology when I could have bought a brand new car with state of the art technology. Just doesn't make financial sense.

Look at when I got my PPL back in 94. Aircraft (C-150) was only $42 per hr, fuel $1.98 per gal and instructor $15 per hr. Today, all of those numbers are at least doubled and in some cases tripled.

Couple years ago I had both mags replaced for roughly $900 a piece. My mech said just a few years prior they were half that.

Years ago we didn't have all the distractions that we have today. Internet and video games. Why fly the real thing when you can fly electrons around on a screen for a fraction of the cost?

Another perfect example on the decline in GA was some overtime I did out in Marion County SC last weekend. Apparently all the hangers are full of aircraft but in 3 days of being there, the only aircraft I saw take off was a CAP C-182. People just don't have the disposable income to keep up with the rising operating costs.

In 1979 GA flew over 38,000 hrs. In 2009 that number was just over 20,000 hrs. Pilot population also went from around 800,000 to around 600,000. While airlines and corporate are flying more, private GA is slowly dying. It's not going to get any better anytime soon.
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I think your numbers are way off. If you take 50 guys who fly 400 hrs per year, they'd beat that number on their own.
Another way of showing it's way off, if each of your pilots (I assume that means "active pilots" with a valid medical) flew just one hour a year, they'd beat that number by a factor of 30!
So please recheck your numbers...
 
Jay,
They all bought RV's and drive everywhere.... Also, GA is to regulated and not worth all the BS to many people! Others have taken to ultra-lights, gyro-copters, etc.....

What's interesting, is that several entertainment industries are losing young people too... Golf, video games, etc..
 
The kids are alright and cleverer then we give them credit for. Let vanilla GA die our jetpacks will be here soon enough.
 
cowman said:
Takes darn near a year for most people to get a PPL and somewhere around $8-10k.
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It's only if you're good. I spent $14,400 from zero to checkride. And yes, I rented from the cheapest (decent) place in town, which had a Cherokee for $135/hr wet. Right when I got my ticket, another guy opened up a shop and offered a shiny new LSA with glass for $108/hr. Grrrr. Well, he's actually 70 miles away and fuel burn in my Jeep exactly offsets rent savings if I only fly an hour or 1.5.
 
RotorDude said:
I think your numbers are way off. If you take 50 guys who fly 400 hrs per year, they'd beat that number on their own.
Another way of showing it's way off, if each of your pilots (I assume that means "active pilots" with a valid medical) flew just one hour a year, they'd beat that number by a factor of 30!
So please recheck your numbers...
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Yeah, add three more zeros on those flight hour figures.
 
Velocity173 said:
:yeah that

Spent over 30 grand last year for engine overhaul & annual. No one in their right mind would spend that much money on car maintenance. I spent a fortune to overhaul an engine with 1950s technology when I could have bought a brand new car with state of the art technology. Just doesn't make financial sense.

Look at when I got my PPL back in 94. Aircraft (C-150) was only $42 per hr, fuel $1.98 per gal and instructor $15 per hr. Today, all of those numbers are at least doubled and in some cases tripled.

Couple years ago I had both mags replaced for roughly $900 a piece. My mech said just a few years prior they were half that.

Years ago we didn't have all the distractions that we have today. Internet and video games. Why fly the real thing when you can fly electrons around on a screen for a fraction of the cost?

Another perfect example on the decline in GA was some overtime I did out in Marion County SC last weekend. Apparently all the hangers are full of aircraft but in 3 days of being there, the only aircraft I saw take off was a CAP C-182. People just don't have the disposable income to keep up with the rising operating costs.

In 1979 GA flew over 38,000 hrs. In 2009 that number was just over 20,000 hrs. Pilot population also went from around 800,000 to around 600,000. While airlines and corporate are flying more, private GA is slowly dying. It's not going to get any better anytime soon.
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Most people can't afford to go away for the weekend very often in their cars, let alone in an airplane. Quite honestly, by the time Friday night rolls around, the last thing I want to do is go somewhere, I'm worn out by the week, and I've got a ton of stuff to do around the house and yard, as well as some continuing education stuff.

I'm not sure why those airplanes aren't moving where you are. I've always suspected that a disproportionate percent of those who own airplanes are also owners of their own businesses, and unfortunately, the percent of GDP that small businesses contribute has been shrinking over the last 30 years. You may be seeing some owners whose fortunes have declined, or who are too busy working to get out much.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Flying back and forth works best. :)

Motorcycle is next best. You can ride straight to the front of any line, without delay.
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I like your thinking. They should do a program like they do for the Bolivar Peninsula in Galveston. Residents have a pass and they get a priority line when there is a long wait.
 
The economy over the past half decade is why my flying is half of what it used to be... and I even bought an RV in that timeframe. Unfortunately my income has stayed basically fixed since then and the buying power of my dollars seems to be half of what it used to be.
 
Velocity173 said:
Look at when I got my PPL back in 94. Aircraft (C-150) was only $42 per hr, fuel $1.98 per gal and instructor $15 per hr. Today, all of those numbers are at least doubled and in some cases tripled.
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Our club is renting 152's for $65/HR

Primary instruction is $25/hr

Monthly dues $65. Insurance included

I spent around 5k on my ppl in 2011. Today it would cost less
 
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dell30rb said:
Our club is renting 152's for $65/HR

Primary instruction is $25/hr

Monthly dues $65. Insurance included

I spent around 5k on my ppl in 2011. Today it would cost less
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Well you have a unique situation then. Just do a google search for Private Pilot costs and you'll see anywhere from 6-10K. Just our latest thread on PPL costs indicated around 9K to get it. That's 3X what I paid in 94. If I was in the same position today (E-3 military) as 20 yrs ago, my disposable income wouldn't be able to keep up with PPL costs. That's factoring in inflation as well.

Aircraft Consumer had a good article on the rising GA costs a few months back. The author hit the nail on the head. Basically pre 1980s private GA costs were reasonable because you had far more private pilots flying and purchasing aircraft. With those numbers slowing going down, the aircraft industry simply increased costs to remain profitable. Selling less and charging more.

Take the Mags for instance. Aircraft are flown less, therefore the demand for Mags is less. Not to mention a lot of guys are going electronic ignition these days. Well, the manufacturer still wants to net as much in profit with less demand so logically they're going to charge more for the same product. Not only charging more but far exceeding inflation.

Of course you have the complaints with the ADS-B out mandate as well. Primary complaint has been cost. A safety benefit, while not significant, but pilots are complaining about adding it to their aircraft. That leads me to believe that the majority of owners are barely keeping their heads above water in maintaining their aircraft. There aren't many investing in their aircraft, they're just simply operating it and keeping it in an airworthy condition. Basically hoping they don't get a mech that tells them they need a $19,000 engine overhaul like me.:redface:

I'll keep my head above water as long as I can in this GA ownership thing because it's a priority for me. However, I completety understand those who have either lost that spark or have decided to go on to other forms (paragliding / ultralights) to save money for other priorities.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well you have a unique situation then.
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Unfortunately , it's more unique than it should be, it's a really good and rather old, well established club, over 50 years old. 300+ members, 13 aircraft and they're getting ready to add a Screaming Eagle to the list.

Everyone could have a club like this, they just don't want to let go. The club makes nobody any money, it's a true club. Aircraft are collectively owned by the club members, but nobody really keeps track of valuations, it's about the flying. There's an annually elected board to maintain the business of the club, but that's about as formal as it gets.

Breaks my heart that I'm resigning this month, but there are just other things that need more money than my flying habit.
 
We are engaged in a sport/hobby/pastime that was leading and bleeding edge stuff in thw 20th century - 21st century, not so much.

I recently had a chance to visit a GA strip in Argentina to take a glider flight. The current state of aviation could be seen with a circuit around this field.
  • The glider club consisted 100% of baby boomer aged guys doing more chatting than flying. The gliders were 80s vintage trainers. One modern racer was spotted landing.
  • There was one 60's vintage plane with a 20-some CFI giving primary instruction to one middle aged man
  • The hottest aircraft on the field were 4 turbo prop dusters for fire suppression. I imagined our young tow pilot was looking at that as his next step up in his aviation career.
  • There was a gaggle of young attractive 20-30-some women doing tandem jumps with several 20-30 yo guys - extreme sports rock it!
Flying light planes is no longer something so many aspire to do. I grew up with the space program driving the adventure narrative. The great air wars were recent history and outrageous leaps in aviation technology were still being made (X-15, SR-71, SST, stealth, fly-by-wire) and leading edge computer technology was being applied to leading edge aerospace challenges.

The biggest thing we'll see in aviation is the transition to drone technologies with pilots left out of the loop. Whoopee!

Most of us are vintage folks engaged in vintage sport. Enjoy the maturity of both for what it is, just as sailors and car enthusiasts do. Or find the edges like jet suits where there is still some leading and bleeding.
 
Let's face it. We all do our best to make sure our flights, are safe and uneventful. Therefore BORING. Everyone that flies with me falls asleep. EVERYONE. Droning along, hour after hour is boring, sometimes even for the pilot, and we have stuff to do.

Unless you are doing acro, flying is not exciting, and that is what younger people want. For the most part if things get exciting in a GA airplane, something is going terribly wrong!
 
Jay, I am with you, planes need to be flown, not owned and parked.
If only I could get mine back from the shop! Been 2 weeks now for 2 days of work. But hopefully it will be done this week.
Then I solemnly vow here that I will fly the wings off of her!! :)

Here's to flying! :cheers:
 
Anthony said:
Let's face it. We all do our best to make sure our flights, are safe and uneventful. Therefore BORING. Everyone that flies with me falls asleep. EVERYONE. Droning along, hour after hour is boring, sometimes even for the pilot, and we have stuff to do.

Unless you are doing acro, flying is not exciting, and that is what younger people want. For the most part if things get exciting in a GA airplane, something is going terribly wrong!
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I respectfully disagree....

I have been flying for 35 years... I get excited just driving to the airport... When I pass the gate my excitement level grows.... Opening the hangar door starts my heart beating faster... Pulling the plane out and all throughout the preflight is like foreplay to sex.... The excitement builds and then... I get IN.....

Once the engine starts and the smell of 100LL hits my nose I am completely intoxicated with aviation... Getting ATIS, adjusting all the settings just ramps up my heart rate.. Once the brakes release and I am headed to the taxiway, and then the runway I slowly get into the zone....

On the takeoff roll I am completely relaxed and focused on the sights, smells, vibrations and the shear sensation of flight.... Rotate, wheels up and....... From then on it is an absolute delight. If I am going cross county, I am thinking 100 miles down range.. If I am just out for a local romp, I am thinking of the next turn, climb, decent, watching for traffic and birds and ultimate part/orgasm is looking down at the ground pass by and think of all the people who have never flown a plane and I silently wish they all could experience the glorious feeling us pilots get....

On landing I get the plane slowed down and my heart rate starts to climb again and as I taxi up to the hangar and as I go through the shut down checklist, reality starts to reappear in my mind and I get this silly grin on my face knowing I just defeated gravity once again and I start looking forward to my next visit next to the clouds... Life is GOOD for FBH....

I have posted it before but my cheesy video explains my feeling and the lyrics pretty much mirror my inner feelings The first song expresses my take off excitement and the U turn over a snow covered hill and the next song " Going Home" just fits my emotions perfectly.......

In closing, may I say..... Flying is VERY exciting to this old country boy...:yes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
 
GA may not be exciting for the passengers, but I think there are more than enough people that would find it exciting to be the pilot. I think the problem is money, and while more people flying more often would probably help, I don't think it will solve the problem.

Basically you have wages for the vast majority of the population barely keeping up with inflation over the last 10-15 years (standard raise in Corporate America is now 3% at best for rank & file workers) and you have a disposable income activity whose cost is rising far faster than the rate of inflation. People don't have much disposable income any more, and there are easier, less stressful, more cost efficient ways to spend that disposable income.

For flying to become more popular, you'd have to find people who not only have a passion for it, but also the financial means & discipline to make it work. Unfortunately those people aren't very common in the U.S. anymore.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Gawd, I made the mistake of checking out the AOPA forums, for the first time in prolly a year.

Or, rather, inactions.

Get off your butts and FLY, people.

* - With one qualifying exception: RV pilots.
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Reality has been replaced by virtual reality in our socialist utopia.
 
EdFred said:
I'm the last of the local single people I know, and the guys have all been castrated by their wives. "I'd like to go with you but the wife says..."

I'm not one to just go fart around in the pattern or go for a 50 mile food run. If I'm gonna go somewhere, I'm gonna go somewhere. But I've grown tired of solo flights. I've flown to and landed in all of the contiguous 48 solo. I've been to both coasts and the Gulf solo. It gets boring as hell to go somewhere, eat dinner alone, sleep in the hotel alone, and then get up and fly another 500 miles alone. I have a map of the US above my desk at work, and pretty much look at it every day and think, maybe I'll fly to (pick a spot) this weekend. "**** it, I'm not going to spend the night in a hotel in (pick a spot) alone this weekend, I'll save the money."
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It isn't happening to ALL of us. find yourself a woman to enjoy avaition with you.
 
I worked, saved up money, made some deals, got my ratings and endorsements, and continue to spend copius amounts of money on aviation. I apologize that I did all that so I can fly on my terms and not how you see fit.

I go out enough to stay current and keep the plane excercised. I have little interest in farting around the patch by myself going no where in particular.
 
zaitcev said:
It's only if you're good. I spent $14,400 from zero to checkride. And yes, I rented from the cheapest (decent) place in town, which had a Cherokee for $135/hr wet. Right when I got my ticket, another guy opened up a shop and offered a shiny new LSA with glass for $108/hr. Grrrr. Well, he's actually 70 miles away and fuel burn in my Jeep exactly offsets rent savings if I only fly an hour or 1.5.
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Just to rub it in.

Got mine in 2008 for ~$4,000. And no I'm not that great. $50/hr wet for a cessna 150. $30/hr for the instructor and he billed both off the tach. No charge for ground school.
 
it's a huge bummer... every month I think "maybe I can scrape enough to go fly this month".

here's to another month that I can't afford it.

straight up it's cost, at least for me.
 
Cost has been a factor for a long time. I believe public awareness and accessibility are a bigger issue.

The perception of outrageous costs and impossible entry exceeds reality. That perception automatically removes many prospective newcomers who have only heard wallet-destroying horror stories about aviation. Yeah, flying ain't cheap but, once you've got your ticket, it's definitely doable - even if only enough to stay current. At least that's something.

There's also the perception that aviation means junk touching TSA, security lines, and crowded terminals. (I've mentioned this in other threads) Folks just don't understand that it's not like that in GA (for the most part).

I'll also agree that some of it has to do with the public conditioning to be risk-averse. They'd rather plop on a couch and live through a video game or computer screen than actually step outside - it's just so dangerous out there, what with planes falling from the sky, terrorists, mass shootings, etc. The primal, risk-seeking male has been replaced by a transparent-skinned, basement dwelling troll.

Y'all mention the old coots, sitting around a hangar, *****ing about their prostates. I like a lot of those guys. They were flying when it was widespread, and probably have a lot of knowledge to share. When the risks were known, but easily accepted. They had/have a lot of what's lacking today - really being alive. No video game can stimulate as many senses as taking flight does.

I think the word needs to spread a bit more outside of the aviation community, folks need to understand that GA isn't the airlines, and the smell of Cheetos stained fingers whilst unloading a virtual sub machine gun in Call of Duty doesn't align with the smell of 100LL as you crank a rattling air-cooled 4/6-cyl in real life.
 
N801BH said:
I respectfully disagree....

I have been flying for 35 years... I get excited just driving to the airport... When I pass the gate my excitement level grows.... Opening the hangar door starts my heart beating faster... Pulling the plane out and all throughout the preflight is like foreplay to sex.... The excitement builds and then... I get IN.....

Once the engine starts and the smell of 100LL hits my nose I am completely intoxicated with aviation... Getting ATIS, adjusting all the settings just ramps up my heart rate.. Once the brakes release and I am headed to the taxiway, and then the runway I slowly get into the zone....
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Well said, Ben. I've been flying for 30 years and it never gets old to me, either.

Yesterday I flew for the first time in two months due to work, weather, and both birds being in the shop. Took my RV-8 up for an hour on an absolutely perfect, clear and smooth winter day here in Denver. After tooling around out in the boonies for a while I came back and finished with three perfect wheel landings. The thrill and feeling of accomplishment are still with me the morning after, and I can't wait for my next flight!
 
In the big picture it doesn't really matter if SEL GA lives or dies.
 
pilot_dude said:
In the big picture it doesn't really matter if SEL GA lives or dies.
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In the really big picture it doesn't really matter if Earth lives or dies. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make the most of what we have...

Go fly, have fun.
 
Well, I've found some breathing room by undershooting housing and transportation costs. I can't speak as to why that choice is considered blasphemy by the middle class household. I don't consider 200-300AMU housing and one to two 35AMU new vehicles a basic human need, yet that is the very lifestyle snapshot everybody and their grandmother aspires to in this Country regardless of socioeconomic background. I get that we're all innocent in Shawshank and nobody would allocute publicly to that want, but that's the reality of the median household in this Country. Personally I blame beta males and entitled American women run amok, but that's for another thread.

Flying's not the only avocation that potentially requires 10-20K/yr in expenditures. Just sayin'...

/devilsadvocate
 
hindsight2020 said:
I don't consider 200-300AMU housing and one to two 35AMU new vehicles a basic human need, yet that is the very lifestyle snapshot everybody and their grandmother aspires to in this Country regardless of socioeconomic background.
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Bit of a hijack, but Karen and I just watched an interesting documentary called "Without Bound" on living in small places on a tight budget which echoes that theme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg37Cbx-kak
 
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