Challenging a court's jurisdiction? (Lawyers??)

My curiosity is up so I was reading about vascar. Apparently there are many different distances of the marks. One thing I'd make darn sure of before 2/25 is that you know the distance between those two lines on the road and the time for 96 mph. At 1/4 of a mile, it's 9.4 seconds. If the officer gives any answer other than 9.4 seconds, then there's a question. It's going to be the science and detail that will get you out of this.

What was the clocked time? Was the officer reading the correct marks on the road? What was the clocked distance? Were they using the correct conversion chart? For example, if the marks are 1/2 mile apart, but they used a 1/4 mile conversion chart then 55 mph becomes 110. Also, the shorter the clocked distance, the more error occurs in timing. A one second hesitation error at 1/4 mile distance equates to 10 mph.

Did some looking at the highway around Monument, I didn't see any Vascar lines on Google. Where did you enter?

Anyway to know how many others got tickets from the same officer for the same thing that day? My father once got a stop sign violation thrown out because the officer sat next to a new stop sign and wrote tickets all day. It was obvious it was new because he wrote 100 tickets in a few hours. The judge threw them all out and had a private conference with the officer in his chambers.

And sometimes - it just sucks when you're innocent, but the adult thing to do is work out a plea with the DA and get on with life. BTDT, got the T-shirt.
 
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Hmmm, I think maybe I see the vascar marks, two heavy white lines 1/2 mile apart. If this is them, they're (good news) just north of County Line Road on I-25. That means the infraction and the stop happened in Douglas County and you're well within your rights to request a change in venue. But don't put all your hopes on that, the judge still might consider that you're all here, just get it over with.

Bad news is that it's 1/2 mile distance, which greatly reduces the chance for error. 16.4 seconds is the time for 110 mph, 18.8 mph is the time for 96 mph. There's probably very little chance that they're going to say a time higher than 18 seconds, which just makes them look good because they're obviously giving you a break.
 
refusal to provide discovery means they have denied you substantive due process under the 14th amendment to the US Constitution.

Make THAT argument. If the judge tries to blow you off ask for 28 days to file a brief in support. They cannot testify as to speed absent producing proof of the speed when observing from an aircraft.

The thing about using an aircraft in Colorado, density altitude and true airspeed become relevant in a way that using an aircraft in Florida does not. . . .

Moreover - who observed your speed? The officer who wrote the ticket? Nope. The Officer in the airplane. Who is testifying?

Enjoy.
 
Either that or the cop won't show up at the trial date and it gets dismissed due to lack of prosecution.
 
comanchepilot said:
refusal to provide discovery means they have denied you substantive due process under the 14th amendment to the US Constitution.

Make THAT argument. If the judge tries to blow you off ask for 28 days to file a brief in support. They cannot testify as to speed absent producing proof of the speed when observing from an aircraft.

The thing about using an aircraft in Colorado, density altitude and true airspeed become relevant in a way that using an aircraft in Florida does not. . . .

Moreover - who observed your speed? The officer who wrote the ticket? Nope. The Officer in the airplane. Who is testifying?

Enjoy.
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In a small way, that was actually something I considered....fight as high as I can and then get a lawyer for the Supreme Court battle. It sounds outlandish over a speeding ticket, but dammit, this isn't right...

And I have every intention of either moving for dismissal or objecting as hearsay everything the cop says if the pilot doesn't show...
 
bflynn said:
Hmmm, I think maybe I see the vascar marks, two heavy white lines 1/2 mile apart. If this is them, they're (good news) just north of County Line Road on I-25. That means the infraction and the stop happened in Douglas County and you're well within your rights to request a change in venue. But don't put all your hopes on that, the judge still might consider that you're all here, just get it over with.

Bad news is that it's 1/2 mile distance, which greatly reduces the chance for error. 16.4 seconds is the time for 110 mph, 18.8 mph is the time for 96 mph. There's probably very little chance that they're going to say a time higher than 18 seconds, which just makes them look good because they're obviously giving you a break.
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If thst is true (I will look tomorrow), it actually damns my case on jurisdiction as Douglas County is the place with no discovery.
 
bflynn said:
My curiosity is up so I was reading about vascar. Apparently there are many different distances of the marks. One thing I'd make darn sure of before 2/25 is that you know the distance between those two lines on the road and the time for 96 mph. At 1/4 of a mile, it's 9.4 seconds. If the officer gives any answer other than 9.4 seconds, then there's a question. It's going to be the science and detail that will get you out of this.

What was the clocked time? Was the officer reading the correct marks on the road? What was the clocked distance? Were they using the correct conversion chart? For example, if the marks are 1/2 mile apart, but they used a 1/4 mile conversion chart then 55 mph becomes 110. Also, the shorter the clocked distance, the more error occurs in timing. A one second hesitation error at 1/4 mile distance equates to 10 mph.

Did some looking at the highway around Monument, I didn't see any Vascar lines on Google. Where did you enter?

Anyway to know how many others got tickets from the same officer for the same thing that day? My father once got a stop sign violation thrown out because the officer sat next to a new stop sign and wrote tickets all day. It was obvious it was new because he wrote 100 tickets in a few hours. The judge threw them all out and had a private conference with the officer in his chambers.

And sometimes - it just sucks when you're innocent, but the adult thing to do is work out a plea with the DA and get on with life. BTDT, got the T-shirt.
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For the record, I entered at County Line rd, which should have answered my first question for me...obviously I was in Douglas county...

But, here's the fun part: I was stopped at MM165. County line Rd is MM163. So, in heavy traffic, I entered the highway, accelerated to 110mph, maintained it long enough to be caught by a pilot, slowed enough to not be speeding when pulled over (I glanced down and saw 75 on the speedometer when I saw the lights), then stopped, all within a span or 2 to 3 miles??
 
I was thinking about this case over the holiday as I was driving up I25. I think I know what happened, as I drove along and was passed by an almost identical charcoal gray Ford Focus. It seems likely that the timing started on a car which was behind you, and similar enough to your car that making a continuous track difficult. It may have appeared to be speeding in relation to the rest of traffic, which is why it was picked. The clock was then stopped using your car, rather than the similar car which would still be well behind you. Basing the elapsed time on two different vehicles, with you getting the stop as directed from above.
 
SkyHog said:
For the record, I entered at County Line rd, which should have answered my first question for me...obviously I was in Douglas county...

But, here's the fun part: I was stopped at MM165. County line Rd is MM163. So, in heavy traffic, I entered the highway, accelerated to 110mph, maintained it long enough to be caught by a pilot, slowed enough to not be speeding when pulled over (I glanced down and saw 75 on the speedometer when I saw the lights), then stopped, all within a span or 2 to 3 miles??
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If you could prove this to me and I was the judge, I'd let you go.

Something similar happened to my mom...a guy hit her in the driver's side as she was turning left...the other driver told the cop my mom was behind him at the stop light. When it turned green they both rolled...as the lane to the right ended he said my mom passed him on the right and turned in front of him.
Mom called me to the scene and I listened as the officer was actually buying this guy's story... The accident happened about 150 yards from a stop light.

I took the cop to the side and explained the science behind my mom accelerating from behind the guy in less than 500 feet in a 4 cylinder minivan to a point of getting around a guy who admitted travelling 35 mph at the time of impact, turning in front of him and leaving no tire marks whatsoever.

The cop was dumbfounded and reversed himself and wrote the other driver a ticket.
 
docmirror said:
I was thinking about this case over the holiday as I was driving up I25. I think I know what happened, as I drove along and was passed by an almost identical charcoal gray Ford Focus. It seems likely that the timing started on a car which was behind you, and similar enough to your car that making a continuous track difficult. It may have appeared to be speeding in relation to the rest of traffic, which is why it was picked. The clock was then stopped using your car, rather than the similar car which would still be well behind you. Basing the elapsed time on two different vehicles, with you getting the stop as directed from above.
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This might be your best route. If there was heavy traffic, there would be ample opportunity to mix cars up. I suspect two officers in the airplane, one to pilot and one to time. If there's only one, then you get to ask him how long he took his eyes off the flight controls for.

As far as traffic, that also gives you the opportunity to ask about how many other cars they clocked and how fast they were going. If, as you say, the average speed was 75 or maybe 80 and you were not weaving in and out of traffic, then you were traveling the average speed as other cars and they simply made a mistake. There's an 8 second difference between 75 and 110, meaning you're looking for a similar car 8-20 seconds ahead of yours in the vascar zone (which is about 1/2 mile north of the exit).

Mixed up the counties, sorry that Douglas is the bad one.
 
The "all within a span of 2-3 miles" argument may not hold much sway. Reality is yes, that is possible and that behavior does occur and get caught. The thing is convincing them them that you wouldn't. That does not sound like an effective defense. Most cars can do this pretty easily with an aggressive driver at the wheel.
 
Maxmosbey said:
What ever happened with the beer delivery business? I always wondered but never think to ask.
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I couldn't find a lawyer in NC that was willing to battle the ABC on it - they all told me "This sounds like it would be reasonably legal, provided you danced a fine line, but I wouldn't be interesting in representing you."
 
I wonder what kind of evidence there is in a case like this. Someone using a stopwatch and writing times down? Video? Photo? I guess that's what you're trying to find out, and that's what it hinges on. The science/math required is middle school level. The time it took for your vehicle to go the 1/2 mile (or whatever) is all that matters. 110 mph is a pretty serious charge, and they ought to have evidence to back it up. If all they keep is a number on a clipboard, well, not much to argue with. Even if they were in error.

I have no clue about any of this, but I appreciate the updates.
 
Nick, all I can do is wish you the best of luck. If more people were willing to stand up this crap might be stopped. On a side note, I heard the NYPD slow down is costing the city millions of dollars in traffic fines. I love it.
 
F01LA said:
I wonder what kind of evidence there is in a case like this. Someone using a stopwatch and writing times down? Video? Photo? I guess that's what you're trying to find out, and that's what it hinges on. The science/math required is middle school level. The time it took for your vehicle to go the 1/2 mile (or whatever) is all that matters. 110 mph is a pretty serious charge, and they ought to have evidence to back it up. If all they keep is a number on a clipboard, well, not much to argue with. Even if they were in error.

I have no clue about any of this, but I appreciate the updates.
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You suppose they go to the trouble of buying and maintaining aircraft , crewing it with two people and then do not have an adequate way of proving what they charge? I think it's immature and foolish to think that they won't be able to hammer his azz if they choose to. Going into court on something serious like this without a good lawyer is like a sheep to slaughter.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You suppose they go to the trouble of buying and maintaining aircraft , crewing it with two people and then do not have an adequate way of proving what they charge? I think it's immature and foolish to think that they won't be able to hammer his azz if they choose to. Going into court on something serious like this without a good lawyer is like a sheep to slaughter.
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I fail to see how a speeding ticket, worth 4 points and a $160 fine is "serious," but maybe we have different definitions of serious.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You suppose they go to the trouble of buying and maintaining aircraft , crewing it with two people and then do not have an adequate way of proving what they charge?
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If that's the case, he should be able to prove his innocence then.

Maybe every place does it a little different, but on an aviation board like this surely someone would know the process and evidence collected.

Hmm, interesting video:

 
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Jimmy cooper said:
You suppose they go to the trouble of buying and maintaining aircraft , crewing it with two people and then do not have an adequate way of proving what they charge? I think it's immature and foolish to think that they won't be able to hammer his azz if they choose to. Going into court on something serious like this without a good lawyer is like a sheep to slaughter.
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Yes, unless they made a mistake. A similar model car, 10 seconds ahead or behind the other...one would hope they have video to prove their claim that a car was traveling 45 mph faster than other cars in heavy traffic.
 
F01LA said:
If that's the case, he should be able to prove his innocence then.

Maybe every place does it a little different, but on an aviation board like this surely someone would know the process and evidence collected.

Hmm, interesting video:

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Holy steep turns, Batman!!
 
F01LA said:
If that's the case, he should be able to prove his innocence then.

Maybe every place does it a little different, but on an aviation board like this surely someone would know the process and evidence collected.

Hmm, interesting video:

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Same general area (a few miles south, of course, as he's down in Colorado Springs) - I wonder if its the same pilot cop...

This is very helpful - assuming this is standard, it is clear that he used a stop watch, and likely communicated with the officer on the ground that she had the "correct" car. He probably used a VASCAR system, and it is likely the VASCAR just north of County Line Rd.

But what doesn't make sense is where their mistake was. It definitely wasn't me, so how did that get messed up?

edit: I'm going to submit this video as evidence, provided I can find the behavior that likely caused the mistake.
 
SkyHog said:
But what doesn't make sense is where their mistake was. It definitely wasn't me, so how did that get messed up?
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Timing start and stop are two different cars that look the same from 3000' AGL. Two gray Focus' in trail, or two different white Chebbys, etc.
 
All Vascar is, is a stopwatch and a chart. There is nothing fancy about it. . . .

Distance equals speed times time. . . . solve for speed. S=D/T

He has a chart in the airplane and a stopwatch. . . .

I'd ask if he was alone. . . I'd go down the violation of the FAR's at the same time I'd attack his ability to observe. . . . Where was he looking when he was flying? Did he have an observer? Who was looking for air traffic? You might not be able to defeat the ticket but you can hang his ticket out to dry. . ..

How does he know how long the lines on the ground are? Wait for it . . .. "I was told it was 1 mile long. . ." Objection, move to strike, hearsay. There's the case.

You will never never never [did I say never?] win a traffic case based on the facts if you are the defendant . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
How does he know how long the lines on the ground are? Wait for it . . .. "I was told it was 1 mile long. . ." Objection, move to strike, hearsay. There's the case.
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Not really. The lines are known to be 1/2 mile apart and are verifiable as such. It's a fall-on-your face maneuver, which you don't want to do in front a judge. Should still ask the question, just like you should ask all the questions about his procedures and qualifications. Make them prove the did it right. Know the right answers and make them give them. If they don't then drill in deeper.

The question is going to be how long he took his eyes off the car, because he had to maintain contact with it for not just the 20 seconds it took to clock it, but also the time it took for the officer to chase down the car and pull it over. How long is that? 2 minutes? Can you fly at 1500' without looking at the sky for 2 minutes?

What was his flight speed and headwinds? What was his groundspeed? that would contribute to a identification error.

Make him doubt himself, did he get your car confused with another one...that's the best you've got short of them saying something obviously wrong. Were there two cars, did he clock one, look away and then find your car? 15 seconds is a 1/3 of a mile at 75 mph. It would be very easy to find the wrong car.

Where did you see the car come from? If it came from south on i-25, then you know it wasn't you. When you clocked the car, which lane was it in? When you looked away at your flight instruments, then looked back, which lane was it in? When you found the car in the right lane, did you look further down the other lane to see if there was a similar car?

So - ask all the questions and then make him give you the right answers. Make him doubt himself, show HIM and the judge that he might be wrong and then ask if he is absolutely sure...he'll either hesitate or he'll shoot down his own credibility.

Then in the end, you might not be able to poke the right hole and it will be time to be a big boy and take your medicine.
 
You might want to take an air video of your own at the same time of day, same day of week to show the typical traffic on the specific stretch of road.
 
bflynn said:
Not really. The lines are known to be 1/2 mile apart and are verifiable as such.......
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Most lines I have seen are 1/4 apart.....

I still contend that unless it is 2AM,,, you ain't gonna get up to 110 MPH with other traffic on the road...:no::no:
 
"How much turbulence were you encountering?" would be high on my list.

Seeing the way he clicks the buttons on velcro'd timers, or even removes them from the Velcro and hand holds them, hell, I've hit a bump and bumped the timer too soon shooting approaches.

They simply hit the button too soon and were looking outside when they did it.
 
N801BH said:
Most lines I have seen are 1/4 apart.....

I still contend that unless it is 2AM,,, you ain't gonna get up to 110 MPH with other traffic on the road...:no::no:
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:rofl::rofl::rofl: Please, you know that's not true. :rofl::rofl::rofl: I hit 70 in your driveway on a snow machine.:lol:
 
bflynn said:
...It's a fall-on-your face maneuver, which you don't want to do in front a judge...
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My understanding is that he has experience with what works in front of a judge.
 
N801BH said:
Well....

There is that.. BUT

I didn't have marks painted on the driveway either...:D
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Thing is the argument that "It's not possible..." falls on it's face, it is most definitely possible to hit 110 in traffic and get it shut down to 75 in 2-3 miles, heck most cars can do it in a mile if you drive them hard.

It takes a different approach to win. The one that is most effective is to ask for continuances until the cop doesn't show and they have to dismiss. Still might end up with $160 or more in court costs though.

If the cop keeps showing, the only chance is to get them to doubt themselves mistaking you for the car 2 behind you when they took their eyes off you.
 
Henning said:
Thing is the argument that "It's not possible..." falls on it's face, it is most definitely possible to hit 110 in traffic and get it shut down to 75 in 2-3 miles, heck most cars can do it in a mile if you drive them hard.

It takes a different approach to win. The one that is most effective is to ask for continuances until the cop doesn't show and they have to dismiss. Still might end up with $160 or more in court costs though.

If the cop keeps showing, the only chance is to get them to doubt themselves mistaking you for the car 2 behind you when they took their eyes off you.
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Unless ALL the other cars/trucks are in the right lane, and STAY there,, you ain't gonna hit 110 mph.. If you do, then you are weaving back and forth and the charge would have escalated to reckless driving and the OP would have ended up in handcuffs in the back of the cruiser...

IMHO..
 
Henning said:
It takes a different approach to win. The one that is most effective is to ask for continuances until the cop doesn't show and they have to dismiss. Still might end up with $160 or more in court costs though.
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Way more at the fancy building in DougCo. This is what Clark and I have been saying all along. DougCo will get their money, no matter how you slice it.
 
denverpilot said:
Way more at the fancy building in DougCo. This is what Clark and I have been saying all along. DougCo will get their money, no matter how you slice it.
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It's only worth fighting for the points and insurance, and the insurance will likely go up regardless.
 
I'm no lawyer, but I am curious about all this. I'd wonder:

Why were you clocked? Were you drawing attention to yourself prior to entering the timing zone? I've driven that stretch too (not lately), but to hit 110 in normal traffic you'd be weaving all over and driving the shoulder. Did he observe that prior to starting the clock or while you were being timed?

Timing is a manual operation - How often does he look at the chart after clocking someone and say, "No way THAT is right", and not call it in? How does he decide what gets called in and what doesn't?
 
Matthew said:
I'm no lawyer, but I am curious about all this. I'd wonder:

Why were you clocked? Were you drawing attention to yourself prior to entering the timing zone? I've driven that stretch too (not lately), but to hit 110 in normal traffic you'd be weaving all over and driving the shoulder. Did he observe that prior to starting the clock or while you were being timed?

Timing is a manual operation - How often does he look at the chart after clocking someone and say, "No way THAT is right", and not call it in? How does he decide what gets called in and what doesn't?
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Or....

Did he even call it in...

Or... was there even a CHP plane flying that day????.


:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:..

This could get QUITE interesting......:yes::yes::redface:
 
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