Amelia Rose

How can anyone complain about a beautiful lady with a famous name doing something that can only help GA by being a positive story in the news rather than another story about how deadly small planes are?

Jealousy perhaps?

Yup.

Props to her for using the tools she was given and those she earned to garner some positive publicity for GA *and* give out some scholarships for other to learn to fly.

I think it'd be cool if, after this experience, she eventually does it in an Electra with old-school navigation tools and a "navigator" who has a GPS and only steps in with that info if she's going to fly out of fuel range of land.

OBTW, she posted on Twitter that she's hand-flying the Atlantic today... So at least it's not all just a ride behind some automation.
 
Why did I know the conversation would turn into this...
Sorry Mari - it's only because you have some degree of intelligence.

Two extremely easy predictions to make are anti-woman comments (a more specific form of "bringing people into aviation with gender, race, cultural-specific role modelling is a form of discrimination") and macho pilot comments ("BFD; if she was a real pilot she'd be flying a Piper Cub and doing spins over the Atlantic.")

Combine the two and you get an even more "well-rounded" picture.
 
To answer the question posed, some pages back, I personally wouldn't care if a healthy, all-make GA existed, if it was 50/50 men/women, or if it was 75/25 men/women.

However, we don't have a healthy GA. We have an airport system set up for twice the usage it is currently seeing, with hundreds of underutilized airports that have turned into ghost towns.

Since we are apparently unable to inspire more young men to get involved, women appear to be a ripe target. They currently represent just 6% of all pilots, which means we should be able to move the ball more easily with them than with guys.

Well, except for the whole macho aviation mindset that turns all but the strongest women off to flying. I don't mean we have to make FBOs pink, or anything radical, but as the husband of a very active GA pilot wife, I see this sort of male-centric attitude all the time.

Often it's presented in the form of a joke (Example: A friend keying the mike and saying "No girls allowed!" when they see Mary land.), but the underlying attitude is clear.

I wish Amelia all the luck in the world. I wouldn't fly the North Atlantic in anything smaller than a 757. If her story makes it into the fourth grade classrooms, and she inspires a bunch of 10 year old girls to take flight lessons, we all win.
 
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How can anyone complain about a beautiful lady with a famous name doing something that can only help GA by being a positive story in the news rather than another story about how deadly small planes are?

Jealousy perhaps?

:rolleyes2:

Jealousy, misogynistic...many possible undesirable personality traits from people who should know better. She's got a PP-IA cert just like mine...
 
I'm glad to see her doing it, no it's not a world changing event, but it may help influence a few more young women to tackle aviation. General Aviation is dying in America, slowly, but it's dying. Pilots are getting older and I think 94% are male, getting a few more women into aviation couldn't hurt. I've probably got another 10-15 years of flying left, maybe a little more with any luck, but I don't want to see something I enjoy die from lack of participation. Changing the demographics of the pilots base is one way that may increase the pilot population, we need more people besides the traditional white males to learn to fly. Go to any airport on any day of the week and you will see that the vast majority of pilots and students are white males, very few women and minorities are flying or learning to fly.:dunno:
Ask most non-pilots to name a woman aviator and they will say Amelia Earhart, and she's been dead for 70 years! :rolleyes:
 
To answer the question posed, some pages back, I personally wouldn't care if a healthy, all-make GA existed, if it was 50/50 men/women, or if it was 75/25 men/women.

However, we don't have a healthy GA. We have an airport system set up for twice the usage it is currently seeing, with hundreds of underutilized airports that have turned into ghost towns.

Since we are apparently unable to inspire more young men to get involved, women appear to be a ripe target. They currently represent jus 6% of all pilots, which means we should be able to move the ball more easily with them than with guys.

Well, except for the whole macho aviation mindset that turns all but the strongest women off to flying. I don't mean we have to make FBOs pink, or anything radical, but as the husband of a very active GA pilot wife, I see this sort of male-centric attitude all the time.

Often it's presented in the form of a joke (Example: A friend keying the mike and saying "No girls allowed!" when they see Mary land.), but the underlying attitude is clear.

I wish Amelia all the luck in the world. I wouldn't fly the North Atlantic in anything smaller than a 757. If her story makes it into the fourth grade classrooms, and she inspires a bunch of 10 year old girls to take flight lessons, we all win.

Well said, Jay! And, as a woman, I appreciate hearing from a man who understands that GA can sometimes be a not-so-friendly environment for women. I, too, have heard jokes like you've mentioned, including from one of my CFIs! That said, I'd have to say that a good 85 to 90 percent of the men I've encountered while flying have been courteous, friendly, supportive, and curious about my plane (I fly that CTLS that people like to make fun of:)). Unfortunately, it's the other 10 to 15 percent who can be a real turnoff to a woman who's struggling with the issues that most new pilots struggle with anyway.
 
Then there was a woman in a 180 Cessna.

Yeah, the first woman to fly solo around the world. Still alive. Old what's-her-name. :rolleyes2:

Whereas the first man to fly solo around the world killed himself flying a hybrid of his own design using a Lockheed Orion and Explorer that the Lockheed company refused to have anything to do with and considered it dangerous. If "he" had been a "she," the rest of his accomplishments would likely have been downplayed and the failure would have been highlighted, rather than the other way around.
 
Yeah, the first woman to fly solo around the world. Still alive. Old what's-her-name. :rolleyes2:

Whereas the first man to fly solo around the world killed himself flying a hybrid of his own design using a Lockheed Orion and Explorer that the Lockheed company refused to have anything to do with and considered it dangerous. If "he" had been a "she," the rest of his accomplishments would likely have been downplayed and the failure would have been highlighted, rather than the other way around.

How true. It's been so tempting to invoke the "M" word in response to some of the comments here, but I've been holding off, because I think most of the opinions that would prompt that are the views of a very small minority.
 
Why do they need to be represented? Does it have to be 50% men and 50% women for you to be happy?

Exactly. I get sick and tired of the insinuation that the lack of female piloting interest is a problem that needs to be fixed, let alone a problem in the first place.

There are sociological reasons why women don't partake in the activity as widely as men. It is a problem as much as the millenia of human social structure is a "problem". Look, non-homesteading female labor participation is a rather recent luxury in a lineage of 7500 years of organized historical civilization. One that's degrading our social structure (single parent births and a generation of feral children) but ultimately, a fart in the wind. And a self-limiting one at that. There's nothing to fix. Women can do whatever the hell they want, but they will pay the opportunity cost just like everybody else in this earthly boat, Oprah included. What you see is people making choices. And women are not picking flying. That checks.
 
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How can anyone complain about a beautiful lady with a famous name doing something that can only help GA by being a positive story in the news rather than another story about how deadly small planes are?



Jealousy perhaps?



:rolleyes2:


:yeathat:
 
There are sociological reasons why women don't partake in the activity as widely as men. It is a problem as much as the millenia of human social structure is a "problem".

The fraction of pilots that are black is much lower than the fraction they make up of the general population. Do you believe that the lack of motivation toward flying of black males and females is due to the same sociological cause?
 
I think the issues are probably more similar than we would like to admit, local flight schools are still dominated by white males and tend to be a very closed group. Not very welcoming to anyone, much less someone that is different. Sure we have minority and women pilots, most of them had a strong mentor or role model of some kind. I have a good friend that flys for Southwestran, she's been flying since she was a kid, did the CFI route and loves aviation and tries to encourage others to join.
We need more people entering aviation, whether they are male, female, white, black or asian, we need more folks flying to keep GA moving. As pilots quit flying either for age, economic or health reasons, we need more pilots to rent airplanes, buy fuel and buy airplanes, otherwise our little GA world will disappear.

The fraction of pilots that are black is much lower than the fraction they make up of the general population. Do you believe that the lack of motivation toward flying of black males and females is due to the same sociological cause?
 
The fraction of pilots that are black is much lower than the fraction they make up of the general population. Do you believe that the lack of motivation toward flying of black males and females is due to the same sociological cause?

Yes, none of my black friends have any desire to fly, none whatsoever. One even jokingly told me "that's something for white people"

On the other hand everyone of my Indian friends wants to fly. I took one up and 3 weeks later he's cleared by the TSA to begin his training and is 10 lessons in now.
 
What absolute rubbish!

Ya might want to look up the definition of sociological or sociology before you call something you don't agree with 'rubbish'.

It is actually an accurate statement. The Disney Princess marketing and pink Legos are sociological examples of how many young girls are steered away from things like aviation.
 
What absolute rubbish!

Definitely not rubbish. Aviation is more of a "guy" thing even though there are many capable women doing it too. As posted above, pink legos and barbies. But, some girls like to play, and I'm definitely good with that. Girl pilots are hot anyways:D

I'd say I'm jealous too. I'd love to sit in that thing and fly around the world. And even if I were capable of managing all the systems on that aircraft and had an instrument rating, I'd STILL want an experienced pilot in the other seat.
 
I suppose it's impossible that men and women, in general, might tend to be wired a little differently.
 
I suppose it's impossible that men and women, in general, might tend to be wired a little differently.
Not only not impossible but definitely true. Medical research indicates that even there, male-centrism has led to a lack of quality research on the effect of certain medications on women as opposed to men.

But what does that have to do with the price of oranges in Calcutta or whether cultural and historical sociological factors affect who is interested in certain activities?
 
I suppose it's impossible that men and women, in general, might tend to be wired a little differently.

Is it impossible to realize that speaking in absolutes completely ignores similarities?
 
Ya might want to look up the definition of sociological or sociology before you call something you don't agree with 'rubbish'.

It is actually an accurate statement. The Disney Princess marketing and pink Legos are sociological examples of how many young girls are steered away from things like aviation.


And perhaps YOU should look up those definitions before lecturing me with some bad marketing examples!

Also work on (along with others here) adding "in my opinion" to some of the bilge you spew, or alternatively (GASP) provide references to back up some of your statements.

In my opinion.

;)
 
And perhaps YOU should look up those definitions before lecturing me with some bad marketing examples!

What's wrong? Can't look it up with a simple google search ? That's what I did. You've clearly demonstrated your relevance here.

In my opinion....
 
Without going into the whole sociological/biological part of the equation, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that girls and boys, women and men have very different interests and therefore fewer girls/women are attracted to aviation. What bothers me is what happens to those girls/women who are attracted to aviation. I think in many, though certainly not all, cases, they have to fight attitudes and biases that make it even harder to progress than it already is for the average person trying to learn how to fly a plane.
 
I think the main problem when grouping people together according to gender or race is the tendency to think that the group which you are not part of is pretty homogenous when it isn't. Men and women might seem to prefer certain activities or possesses certain personality traits when averaged but that doesn't mean there isn't wide variation within groups.
 
What bothers me is what happens to those girls/women who are attracted to aviation. I think in many, though certainly not all, cases, they have to fight attitudes and biases that make it even harder to progress than it already is for the average person trying to learn how to fly a plane.

That is unfortunately true. If Amelia Rose inspires any women to fly, that's great, but the real barriers are more about what you describe than a lack of awareness.
 
Without going into the whole sociological/biological part of the equation, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that girls and boys, women and men have very different interests and therefore fewer girls/women are attracted to aviation. What bothers me is what happens to those girls/women who are attracted to aviation. I think in many, though certainly not all, cases, they have to fight attitudes and biases that make it even harder to progress than it already is for the average person trying to learn how to fly a plane.

Hm....girls are not persons?
 
I think the main problem when grouping people together according to gender or race is the tendency to think that the group which you are not part of is pretty homogenous when it isn't. Men and women might seem to prefer certain activities or possesses certain personality traits when averaged but that doesn't mean there isn't wide variation within groups.

Absolutely true. And when it comes to flying, I'd say a good 75 percent of the men I know have absolutely no interest in stepping into a GA plane, either as a pilot or passenger. So I guess if I wanted to generalize, I'd say most men aren't interested in flying either. Let's face it, we pilots, male and female, are a very strange subset of the human species.:)
 
Try Geraldine ( jerry ) Mock. She really did it, by herself in a 180 Cessna. Much more impressive.
 
Try Geraldine ( jerry ) Mock. She really did it, by herself in a 180 Cessna. Much more impressive.

And strangely, wrongly, has been mostly forgotten.

Even in our Women Pilots Room at our aviation-themed hotel, we omitted her! I am fixing that now, but we've got 25 famous women pilots on the walls of that room, and neither of us had ever heard of her, until fairly recently.

THAT is a travesty. Why do we all know Amelia Earhart -- who failed -- but we don't know Jerrie Mock -- who succeeded?
 

I think in many, though certainly not all, cases, they (girls) have to fight attitudes and biases that make it even harder to progress than it already is for the average person trying to learn how to fly a plane.

So girls are not persons?
 
That is unfortunately true. If Amelia Rose inspires any women to fly, that's great, but the real barriers are more about what you describe than a lack of awareness.

Thanks for your understanding. I will say to other women who run into the kinds of obstacles (or should we say headwind here?) that I encountered, if you are truly motivated to fly, if it is a real passion of yours, you will get beyond whatever sexist BS you encounter along the way. The people who say the kind of things that make you want to run do not represent the majority view. Keep that in mind, always.

It's interesting, too, the kind of people who espouse such views. One might think it's the older pilots, but in general (caution: dangerous generalities ahead!), I have found the older crowd to be much more supportive. Some of the most sexist comments I have encountered have come from much younger pilots, perhaps because they view being a pilot as such a macho thing, that if a woman flies, it somehow takes away from that. Their loss.

A couple of years ago, when I had just started flying, I attended the AOPA convention in Hartford, because I got free tickets to it and it was close. At the time, I had only two hours of flight in my logbook. So I would go up to people at the various booths, and inevitably they would ask me what I fly and how many hours I had. I was embarrassed at first to even answer, but then I realized how supportive so many of these people were, and many of them were older men. I particularly remember one man, who upon hearing me say, "I'm not a real pilot, I've just started," said: "You're a pilot. You're a student pilot, but a pilot nonetheless." Whenever I think about that, I smile. It's people like that who keep you going through all the nonsense. And it's people like that who represent the future hopes of general aviation. People who are happy to share their knowledge, who have no political/psychological agenda, people who just want more people to become pilots, because they love what they do and want more people, men and women, to share the joy.

So ladies, for those of you who have encountered some obnoxious attitudes (like one of my former CFIs, who used to say upon hearing a woman on the radio, "Another girl pilot, it's getting dangerous out here!"), take heart: most men want you to succeed. And those who don't, well, they're not worth your time. And, in any case, the naysayers are irrelevant, because you know what you want to do, and know what it takes to get there. Now just do it, and stop listening to the useless chatter!
 
And strangely, wrongly, has been mostly forgotten.

Even in our Women Pilots Room at our aviation-themed hotel, we omitted her! I am fixing that now, but we've got 25 famous women pilots on the walls of that room, and neither of us had ever heard of her, until fairly recently.

THAT is a travesty. Why do we all know Amelia Earhart -- who failed -- but we don't know Jerrie Mock -- who succeeded?

Could it be the reason was that Earhart married a very wealthy publisher who spent lots of money promoting her? You bet! If you really read the history of ear heart you find her contemporaries were not that impressed with her, especially her piloting skills. Jacky Cochran flew circles around her! Betty Skelton, on and on.
 
Why do we all know Amelia Earhart -- who failed -- but we don't know Jerrie Mock -- who succeeded?
But given spectacular nature of this failure it shouldn't be so surprising that people like to latch onto it. It is a bit like about the Titanic. There is some foreboding mystique about it. Some catastrophes/failures speak to human imagination so vividly that everything else is 'boring'. Plus how many conspiracies you could spin from her failure!

BTW, the main 'conspirator' of Earhart's story keeps returning to the headlines, even today:

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014...rucial-clue-in-amelia-earhart-mystery-report/
 
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But given spectacular nature of this failure it shouldn't be so surprising that people like to latch onto it. It is a bit like about the Titanic. There is some foreboding mystique about it. Some catastrophes/failures speak to human imagination so vividly that everything else is 'boring'. Plus how many conspiracies you could spin from her failure!
Exactly. TITANIC was one of three sister ships. She wasn't even the first. The first (and just as elegant at the time) was OLYMPIC which served a very full career, a world war, three collisions and sailed to the scrapyard in the 1930s. But aside from maritime history buffs, the average person never heard of OLYMPIC.
 
Wow, tough crowd. Something positive happens in GA, with a girl flying 'round the world, and y'all find something to hate?

It would seem to me that this is still a great adventure, one that I will certainly never have the opportunity to do, and that (if only we could get the word out) pre-teen girls around the world might look up to this new Amelia?

Given the dismal state of GA, anything that gets a few more girls to take flight lessons can only be seen as good.

What is special about a female pilot? Do you feel that women are so inferior to men that they deserve special recognition for completing a task commonly accomplished by male pilots? Why the sexist view? Either a pilot flies a mission or they do not, male or female, gay or straight, Hispanic, Asian or Native American, no difference.






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