Hourse Power Question

pp47021

Filing Flight Plan
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Pete
I am looking at upgrading and have found 3 Debonairs that I am interested in. I am planning on getting my IFR ticket in this plane and doing cross countries in it once or twice a month of about 500-750 miles. The first one has amazing avionics (older IfR gps, top end AP, back up vacum, etc) with the 225 hp motor. The other two are lacking in avionics (still IFR but no ifr gps, lower end auto pilot etc.) One has a 250hp the other has a 260hp motor. So the question is do I need the extra 25-35 hp? I live in Texas so no mountains but in the summer time the temp can soar and take the DA way up. Since I am planning to do IFR flying will the extra hp help me climb higher? If so how much higher could I go in the 260 vs 225 to get over weather? The planes are all priced about the same so I am not worried about that, just need advice on the HP issue.
 
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To get above the weather you'll need a jet. It's always good to have more power the way avionics are changing , you will probably want to upgrade some of your panel. With the 260 you can always throttle back to save fuel. With the 225 what you see is what you have.
 
Is pure auto fuel available in your area? The 225 can run it if that is an option.
 
I've asked the same question, and, for us flat landers, 225 is fine. Remember, the 182 has 225 (or is it 235?) and folks don't consider it underpowered. On days with high DA, be safe and consider a 50-100-150 lb buffer below gross.

The mogas STC is enticing. That extra hp is nice, but those are expensive extra miles per hour.

A later model Deb with the 470 J or K is high on my list.....
 
The extra speed is nice but I am not really concerned with it even the 225 will be way faster than my PA-28 Cherokee 160 I have been flying. For the record I don't expect to be flying on top of the 30,000 ft thunderstorm, but we do get these high layers of clouds around 10,000-12,000 feet a good bit. No auto gas around here, the closest airport with it is about 125 miles away I think. None of the gas stations have it, so its not really a big factor for me either.

I would need to put 20-30k in the other two planes to fix them up with IFR gps and good AP's. The one with 225hp has nice older stuff including an older Kx89b that is IFR certified. Its not a garmin 750 but will work for the time being then I can upgrade later. The higher hp planes are about the same price but are lacking in the avionics area in big ways and would need some attention right off the bat. Since I don't have a debonair and have not flown them much I just wanted to make sure the 225 was sufficient.

thanks for the comments I look forward to hearing from others...
 
More horsepower is nice, especially when operating IFR. If there's a little light rime in the clouds you can run out of performance real quick if the power's marginal to begin with. If it were me I'd opt for the power and worry about the avionics upgrades later when finances permit.
 
....... The other two are lacking in avionics (still IFR but no ifr gps, lower end auto pilot etc.)
FWIW I've flown IFR for years with no ifr gps & NO autopilot, OTOH I sure like the extra 35 horsepower I got when I went from the O-300 Cont to the O-360 Lyc in my Cessna 170B.
 
Extra HP will always make the same plane climb faster an higher. However, often you find that later models with extra HP also weigh more, so you have to take that into account, too. Will that extra HP be significant for you where you will fly that plane? :dunno: Depends a lot on how you're going to load it.
 
260hp is the minimum I would want for IFR due to climb performance. I think the 250hp will have a Bendix pressure carb. These aren't bad, but I suggest you buy the manual and get very acquainted with its repair and tuning. They aren't difficult, and the new parts for them are of a support quality so you will likely only go through it one in a lifetime, but the talent for dealing with them is fading away so it would be good to stockpile the knowledge and an overhaul kit incase either are scarce when you need to do them.

The 225hp has some advantage in that it can be STC'd for Mogas in case leaded AvGas becomes unavailable, but I don't really see that supply disappearing before an unleaded replacement comes to market. There are plenty of STC mods to keep those engines going and even improve them, then there are also plenty of upgrade options to IO-470s, and depending on model 33, even 520 and 550. I'm not sure on the 33, but the 35 even had a 350hp TIO-540 Machen conversion available (my understanding is that these are highly limited in their ability to use this horsepower as they can't get rid of the heat, having seen one in the cowl, I believe it).

What is a bit misstated is the value of the limited panel upgrade in the 225, which IFR GPS? Is it a WAAS unit capable of all the approaches to their minimums? None of this equipment is going to carry your plane into the future. There are those that are kicking and screaming about it, and they will have G airspace and likely have a transponder requirement.

NexGen is coming whether you like it or not, may as well take advantage because we spent ****loads of money orbiting the Space Shuttle to map the planet (most of it anyway) in 3D. To not take advantage of that is truly a waste of tax dollars, it doesn't just have to be the military that utilizes this data.

Best thing to do is evaluate the condition of the airframes first, that is the priority. Airframe repairs are expensive and put your plane out of commission for extended periods, all the while devaluing the plane.

Next evaluate panels. Anything that isn't WAAS has no special value, it is antiquated and only semi functional in the realm where it matters most, approaches to minimums. You want to avoid having to pay for the glass transition unless you want exactly what you want. Luckily I had a buddy CFII who would always get the latest glass during the transition, and I would do an IPC in it. I got a good enough airframe and engine package, it was worth it to me to put in what I did.

The downside to getting to fly the equipment on my once a year IFR flight is I also got to see how this equipment made operating in an IMC/IFR environment once a year considerably safer and simpler to maintain superior situational awareness not only in ease but in accuracy as well. When coming out the bottom, there is little doubt of exactly where the runway will be regardless of how wild the ride down was.

If you are as most IFR pilots, a rare one, then your safety benefit increases the most.

There are ways to have non certified displays in your panel so long as they are not being used as required equipment. Plenty of low cost/high quality stuff in the Exp sector. The loop hole is in how they are held in place. Velcro is your friend.
 
The bigger issue than the sheer number of HP is the maintainability of the engine-prop combo you have. Older Hartzell double shoulder blade retention have onerous repetitive ADs and E-225 overhaul parts are getting harder to come by. IO-470's and newer props may do you better.
 
The bigger issue than the sheer number of HP is the maintainability of the engine-prop combo you have. Older Hartzell double shoulder blade retention have onerous repetitive ADs and E-225 overhaul parts are getting harder to come by. IO-470's and newer props may do you better.

Yeah, I would look at an IO-470 first. I think there is a 470 crank you can put in the E-225 case that gets rid of the prop issue.
 
Yeah, I would look at an IO-470 first. I think there is a 470 crank you can put in the E-225 case that gets rid of the prop issue.

I'm not sure that's a viable solution (even if it were legal). It would let you put a mac prop on it, but none of those are approved for bo's either. If you were going to do that you could just get an MV-hub prop for the splined shaft that is there.
 
if you aren't going to jump to a 550 then keep the mogas option
 
Its a lot easier to get the IFR rating without an IFR GPS. Easiest setup are two VOR's, one with a glideslope.

As for actual IFR flying. Take a look at your airports. Do they have ILS's? If they do, then you don't need the GPS approaches. An IFR GPS is really nice though for enroute, you can go direct anywhere. Then fly the ILS or VOR/DME or the old GPS (non precision) approaches (they are similar to VOR/DME stepdown approaches).

The new WAAS IFR GPS boxes allow you to fly down to ILS minimums (usually 200') where there is no ILS, if there is an RNAV approach that does that for that airport of course.

Finally, it is better, financially, to buy the airplane with the avionics you want rather than upgrading. Upgrading is expensive.

As for the horsepower, more is better but a Deb flies fine on all of the ones they made. So that's a bit of a tossup.

Fun decisions huh?
 
I don't agree. Learning GPS approaches isn't that hard but most of the IFR GPS have one big feature: a moving map. That takes what is a regular head game with two CDI's and turns it into childs play.
 
I'm not sure that's a viable solution (even if it were legal). It would let you put a mac prop on it, but none of those are approved for bo's either. If you were going to do that you could just get an MV-hub prop for the splined shaft that is there.

It's been a long time since I saw it, but it was a Bonanza conversion and I'm pretty sure it had a Hartzel prop.
 
It's been a long time since I saw it, but it was a Bonanza conversion and I'm pretty sure it had a Hartzel prop.

So why does putting a bogus crank in with a different crap Hartzell prop help over the stock crank and the original crap Hartzell prop.
 
If you haven't already done so, join the ABS. Get a recommendation for a Bonanza expert who can do a pre-buy. They will help you avoid a $30,000 first annual. Buy a good airplane with the right engine (I recommend one of the fuel injected engines) and avionics already installed, particularly the autopilot and a WAAS GPS.
 
So why does putting a bogus crank in with a different crap Hartzell prop help over the stock crank and the original crap Hartzell prop.

:dunno: Not sure of what all the prop options are. If you can bolt on a Top Prop or Scimtar, there may be some advantage, I don't know enough of all the options and their costs to say.
 
The bigger issue than the sheer number of HP is the maintainability of the engine-prop combo you have. Older Hartzell double shoulder blade retention have onerous repetitive ADs and E-225 overhaul parts are getting harder to come by. IO-470's and newer props may do you better.
No Debs were ever produced with the E-225 engine. I'm pretty certain that even the 225 HP Deb had a low compression IO470. The 250 and 260 HP Debs also came with an IO470 but the compression ratio was higher.

As to the OP's original question I'd make my choice between the two offerings (assuming I just couldn't find something with decent avionics and the larger engine) based on the expected remaining life of the engines. If the lower power engine was getting close to TBO and/or showing signs of impending need for major maintenance I'd go with that one and plan on upgrading the engine (there are several options including a 300 HP IO-550) and most of them don't add a huge amount to the cost of a good overhaul or rebuilt engine. Another factor to consider is how well the avionics in the better equipped airplane meet your actual needs and desires. There's a pretty good chance that even though the radios appear to be considerably better they're probably not anywhere near best in class so you might end up paying a premium for stuff you'll be replacing in the next few years anyway.

FWIW, a 225 HP Deb is a decent performing airplane by any standard if you're not hauling a ton of people and stuff. You can easily get 150 KTAS at flatland cruise altitudes with 160 KTAS possible at a small range of altitudes. You can also get adequate performance in the low teens but it will take quite a while to get up there unless you're really light. I once took my 225 HP v-tail to FL180 just to see how high it would go. Once there I could barely eek out about 130 KTAS and the engine wasn't happy about the temps (it was a hot day) so I'd never actually fly it that high on a trip. But 13k MSL was quite feasible if you didn't mind a 30+ minute climb.

260 HP adds about 5-7 Kt of cruise speed and a noticeably greater climb rate at the same weight. It also burns about 15% more fuel in climb and at the higher cruise speed. Going all the way to a IO550 will add almost 20 KTAS (above 10,000 MSL) and just about double the climb rate. And unlike avionic upgrades, changing to a bigger engine usually adds a large percentage of the upgrade cost to the airplane's value when it comes time to sell.
 
260hp is the minimum I would want for IFR due to climb performance.

:confused: There are bookoo NA 182 drivers flying IFR safely.

If it is altitude and performance you want, consider a turbonormalized engine and take all your HP with you, even if it is less HP. Doubt I'll fly a non-turbo again, but then I live in the Rockies.

There are turbo STCs for some aircraft too.
 
Autopilot Autopilot Autopilot

That's the first thing I thought when I read the OP. Flying 500 mile legs.... That's about what I was flying from Houston to Amarillo VFR with an Apollo GX55 by hand. Two or three trips hand flying on the bumpy plains, and the next flight was to Mineral Wells for an S-TEC 30 autopilot, 430W w/GPSS box, CDI, and one or two other goodies, and low and behold about sixteen thousand samolians later, I was a happy camper. :)

I was going to say get the plane with the autopilot, but the thread twisted a crank as they always do ...
 
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