Light airplane for 130 mile commute......

Tie down at Signature MCO is around $180 per month which works out to less than $15 per day on an average month, less if I work more. No official transport to the terminal though, so I'd have to have a car, get a cab or count on my rusty lineboy-ese to snag a ride to the terminal.

Still waiting on a call back from Naples on hangar availability. There's a waiting list at KIMM, and I'd really prefer to not leave it outside for very long.
 
Bonchie said:
I get that, but not all 180hp planes cruise at 115kts in calm wind. A Tiger does 135kts on a calm wind day.

It's not going to average the same exact ground speed, all things considered, as a 172. Which is what you said.

Yes, there will be different delays in Class B for all planes, but all things considered one will make better time then the other.
Click to expand...

Lets do the math . . .

Skyhawk: 115tas. Distance 130nm. = 67 minutes

Cherokee 180: 122tas. Distance 130nm = 64 minutes

Tiger/Cheetah: 135ktas. Distance 130nm = 58 min.

I'm still trying to figure out how that 9 minutes of alleged extra speed matters in a real world, Class B navigation world? It doesn't. It will be about 1hr 15 in the air regardless of which airplane you fly. Might be longer some days or longer inbound since leaving Class B they just want you gone. . . .
 
Slipkid65 said:
Tie down at Signature MCO is around $180 per month which works out to less than $15 per day on an average month, less if I work more. No official transport to the terminal though, so I'd have to have a car, get a cab or count on my rusty lineboy-ese to snag a ride to the terminal.

Still waiting on a call back from Naples on hangar availability. There's a waiting list at KIMM, and I'd really prefer to not leave it outside for very long.
Click to expand...

I would go over to both Signature and Atlantic. Have a good idea what you want monthly or quarterly.

Hi, I'm a pilot XXX airlines. I want to commute via air and am looking for parking for 14 days a month - including 10 overnights, XX gallons of 100LL month and I want this to be a long term deal - how about:

You charge $7.86 for gas, if I pay you in advance for [8 trips a month, 10 gallons a trip, top each time] at $6.50 a gallon plus $15 per overnight to park , and I need to be dropped off at the airline terminal and picked up as part of this deal, will that work for you?"

this way you start with a number that is reasonable - if they ask where you got it from - well - a) for gas they offer 50 cents off on weekends - you figured the weekend price with a pre-payment discount of 10%. b) Then their tie down is $180 a month and you are figuring it on daily basis for an overnight like a hotel - with a discount for payment in advance every month.

Fuel in excess of 80 or 90 is at weekend rate of pump price minus 50 cents. Extra nights are simply $15.

All they need to do is put you inside if there is a hurricane or hail . . . like any other client. . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
I would go over to both Signature and Atlantic. Have a good idea what you want monthly or quarterly.

Hi, I'm a pilot XXX airlines. I want to commute via air and am looking for parking for 14 days a month - including 10 overnights, XX gallons of 100LL month and I want this to be a long term deal - how about:

You charge $7.86 for gas, if I pay you in advance for [8 trips a month, 10 gallons a trip, top each time] at $6.50 a gallon plus $15 per overnight to park , and I need to be dropped off at the airline terminal and picked up as part of this deal, will that work for you?"

this way you start with a number that is reasonable - if they ask where you got it from - well - a) for gas they offer 50 cents off on weekends - you figured the weekend price with a pre-payment discount of 10%. b) Then their tie down is $180 a month and you are figuring it on daily basis for an overnight like a hotel - with a discount for payment in advance every month.

Fuel in excess of 80 or 90 is at weekend rate of pump price minus 50 cents. Extra nights are simply $15.

All they need to do is put you inside if there is a hurricane or hail . . . like any other client. . . .
Click to expand...

Good gouge! Thanks! I'm gonna be heading up there tomorrow.... I'll stop by both places and get the scoop.
 
Great thread!

comanchepilot said:
Lets do the math . . .

Skyhawk: 115tas. Distance 130nm. = 67 minutes

Cherokee 180: 122tas. Distance 130nm = 64 minutes

Tiger/Cheetah: 135ktas. Distance 130nm = 58 min.

I'm still trying to figure out how that 9 minutes of alleged extra speed matters in a real world, Class B navigation world? It doesn't. It will be about 1hr 15 in the air regardless of which airplane you fly. Might be longer some days or longer inbound since leaving Class B they just want you gone. . . .
Click to expand...

Now if you really want to get jiggy, you can calculate the flow rate for refueling each aircraft and based upon tank size and GPH burned, calculate how much time per year he would spend refueling each. Then tell us how much 'real world time' would be spend/ saved.:D
 
Jaybird180 said:
Great thread!



Now if you really want to get jiggy, you can calculate the flow rate for refueling each aircraft and based upon tank size and GPH burned, calculate how much time per year he would spend refueling each. Then tell us how much 'real world time' would be spend/ saved.:D
Click to expand...

Got a story there - a friend of mine was up in NorCal with his Archer when I was up there 2 weeks ago . . .

He came over to STS for a night to visit friends and we ended up leaving within an hour of each other. We both were planning on 9500 to get over Tejon Pass and keep in the smooth air and had the same route planned.

Me: Comanche 260C, 2 people, plus wine, bags, beer [case of Pliny the Elder] and the usual misc crap.

Him: Cherokee 180D [1967] 2 people, usual junk I saw.

Me: 2hr, 19min, avg. speed 168 knots. Fuel burn 31 gallons. [computed used totalizer and based on how much I put back in to usual level after landing] - fuel burn 13.4 gph @ 9500, was showing TAS of 157 when I computed it.

Him 3 hrs 15 min, avg GS 118kts. now for the fun part, Fuel burn, 31 gallons @ 9.5gph. What he put back into the tanks after landing.

Trip was long enough where speed mattered to catch up . .. I find that amazing. . .. so if you had a 140kt and a 115 kt airpalne, the 115kt airplane will prob burn more gas than the 140kt airplane over a 130nm stage length. . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
Lets do the math . . .

Skyhawk: 115tas. Distance 130nm. = 67 minutes

Cherokee 180: 122tas. Distance 130nm = 64 minutes

Tiger/Cheetah: 135ktas. Distance 130nm = 58 min.

I'm still trying to figure out how that 9 minutes of alleged extra speed matters in a real world, Class B navigation world? It doesn't. It will be about 1hr 15 in the air regardless of which airplane you fly. Might be longer some days or longer inbound since leaving Class B they just want you gone. . . .
Click to expand...

Add a 25kt headwind:

Skyhawk: 1:27
Cherokee: 1:20
Tiger: 1:11

Now it's a 16 minute difference.

Also, flying into MCO, which is going to be easier to work into the arrival flow, the 110kt or the 135kt plane?
 
I would search for a 152 converted taildragger ( Texas taildragger) with an engine horsepower up grade in decent shape. It would also serve as a great trainer for the son. You would arrive just a few minutes after the afore mentioned aircraft. Fun to fly.
 
Brad Z said:
Add a 25kt headwind:

Skyhawk: 1:27
Cherokee: 1:20
Tiger: 1:11

Now it's a 16 minute difference.

Also, flying into MCO, which is going to be easier to work into the arrival flow, the 110kt or the 135kt plane?
Click to expand...

Add a 20kt tailwind:

Skyhawk: :58
Cherokee: :55
Tiger: :50

Of course the 135kt airplane fits better - but thats the point of the phone call - when do they have a lull . . . you arrive in the lull and no one is the wiser.
 
comanchepilot said:
Got a story there - a friend of mine was up in NorCal with his Archer when I was up there 2 weeks ago . . .

He came over to STS for a night to visit friends and we ended up leaving within an hour of each other. We both were planning on 9500 to get over Tejon Pass and keep in the smooth air and had the same route planned.

Me: Comanche 260C, 2 people, plus wine, bags, beer [case of Pliny the Elder] and the usual misc crap.

Him: Cherokee 180D [1967] 2 people, usual junk I saw.

Me: 2hr, 19min, avg. speed 168 knots. Fuel burn 31 gallons. [computed used totalizer and based on how much I put back in to usual level after landing] - fuel burn 13.4 gph @ 9500, was showing TAS of 157 when I computed it.

Him 3 hrs 15 min, avg GS 118kts. now for the fun part, Fuel burn, 31 gallons @ 9.5gph. What he put back into the tanks after landing.

Trip was long enough where speed mattered to catch up . .. I find that amazing. . .. so if you had a 140kt and a 115 kt airpalne, the 115kt airplane will prob burn more gas than the 140kt airplane over a 130nm stage length. . . .
Click to expand...

Good point! The previous owner of my plane used to fly WV --> Myrtle Beach with friends in 172s. He would leave 15-20 minutes after them, land 15-20 minutes before them, and use 10% less fuel . . .

Just things to consider while you are researching, planning and thinking. Trip time & fuel used, not just speed.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I would search for a 152 converted taildragger ( Texas taildragger) with an engine horsepower up grade in decent shape....
Click to expand...

Are there any of those monstrosities that haven't been groundlooped? If you buy it for a trainer then there will be one less for sure! A C150 doesn't have the rudder power needed for a tailwheel airplane.

Buy a real tailwheel airplane , like a C140, if you want a tailwheel!
 
I still think a Cherokee 180 (or similar) is the best airplane for this mission. As far as flow in the Bravo, when every other airplane is doing 250, I'm not sure if it really matters whether you're doing 135 or 110 knots. A faster airplane might shave a few minutes off, but the OP seems more concerned about the quality of his commute than the actual commute time itself. A Cherokee is easy, without worry about complex systems, shock cooling, or anything else.

Just my opinion...
 
kayoh190 said:
I still think a Cherokee 180 (or similar) is the best airplane for this mission. As far as flow in the Bravo, when every other airplane is doing 250, I'm not sure if it really matters whether you're doing 135 or 110 knots. A faster airplane might shave a few minutes off, but the OP seems more concerned about the quality of his commute than the actual commute time itself. A Cherokee is easy, without worry about complex systems, shock cooling, or anything else.

Just my opinion...
Click to expand...

Opinion is exactly mine. . . . the 180's with decent panels and a good interior are real honest airplanes that cost very little to maintain if he's flying them 10-15 hours a month. . . . three trips every two weeks if its typical airline pilot schedule. . .

And gouge tells me he's USN . .
 
kayoh190 said:
I still think a Cherokee 180 (or similar) is the best airplane for this mission. As far as flow in the Bravo, when every other airplane is doing 250, I'm not sure if it really matters whether you're doing 135 or 110 knots. A faster airplane might shave a few minutes off, but the OP seems more concerned about the quality of his commute than the actual commute time itself. A Cherokee is easy, without worry about complex systems, shock cooling, or anything else.

Just my opinion...
Click to expand...

A Cherokee 180 is on the short list, for all the reasons mentioned.

Unless I lived in a fly in community (which is a definite possibility in the near future), there is no major time savings with an airplane vs. the car, maybe 45 minutes to an hour in season on the way up. Less at night coming home.

That's one of the reasons I've never really considered it too seriously over the past 13 years. I am just past the point where I am flat out sick and tired of the drive. I love my job, but I HATE the commute.

+/- 10-15 minutes is not that big a deal, heck, hitting traffic lights wrong can add that easily while driving.

I'm looking for simple, reliable, (relatively) inexpensive transportation that my son can use to train on.
 
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If you want a trainer then get the Cherokee. Extremely easy plane to train on. You almost fall asleep stalling them.
 
Bonchie said:
If you want a trainer then get the Cherokee. Extremely easy plane to train on. You almost fall asleep stalling them.
Click to expand...

Yup..... I learned to fly in Cherokees. Probably one of the reasons I keep coming back to them, although I am definitely open to anything that fits the mission. The Tiger's are high on the list as well. Don't get me wrong, emotionally, I'd LOVE a Mooney, Comanche, Bonanza etc., but pragmatically, a simpler airplane would be more than adequate for my needs, and provide a great training platform for my son.

The first hour in my first logbook was in a family friend's Arrow (N5860V). He was a CFI and let me fly it up to Rhinebeck and back. I still remember it like it was yesterday too. After a few hours spread over a year or 2, I started my more serious training and soloed in a Warrior (N8149R).

I had a great deal with the owner of the Arrow where I paid him $10 an hour and bought my own gas, which was a great deal, even back in the stone age of the mid '80's. Those were the days! I put a few hundred hours on that airplane over a few years. FWIW, both airplanes are still earning their keep teaching folks about flying in KFRG, over 30 years later.........

Here's a shot of my dad and I after my first flight. The instructor took the pic. This was early Sept '81, at KFRG, on what is now the American Airpower Museum ramp. The T-Shelters are long gone.

firstflight_zps8c819c69.jpg
 
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comanchepilot said:
Opinion is exactly mine. . . . the 180's with decent panels and a good interior are real honest airplanes that cost very little to maintain if he's flying them 10-15 hours a month. . . . three trips every two weeks if its typical airline pilot schedule. . .
Click to expand...

I typically fly 4 pairings per month, sometimes 3, sometimes 5. I try to minimize the number of commutes, so if I can get enough $$$ to please the boss in 3 commutes, (like this month), I'm golden, but it's typically 4.

The new "rest" rules, paradoxically, allow me to work more hours, more days in a row, and we're pretty productive for major airline pilots. 6 10+ hour days (which would've been difficult under the old rules) are killer. With an airplane, I'll be more apt to pick up extra flying, and less picky about the number of commutes and number of days off between trips.

And gouge tells me he's USN . .
Click to expand...

Bad gouge! :yikes:

I'm 100% scumbag civilian with no formal training.... Plus, I like girls! ;)

(one of my closest friends is a retired Navy A7 driver AND an AA pilot.......I know, I need to associate with a better class of people...... ;) )
 
I did a very similar commute (Pensacola to Panama City, FL) for 2 years in a Glasair 1. It was perfect for the commute - very difficult to find something that gets you there that fast for any cheaper.
 
EvilEagle said:
I did a very similar commute (Pensacola to Panama City, FL) for 2 years in a Glasair 1. It was perfect for the commute - very difficult to find something that gets you there that fast for any cheaper.
Click to expand...

Those Glasairs are badass!

I've never really been into the homebuilt scene, but I think I still have a Glasair sales brochure from the late '90's that I picked up at Sun N Fun. The only other homebuilt brochures I bothered to pick up that year were Vans and the Thunder Mustang (talk about Badass!)........ Those were the only ones that really piqued my interest!
 
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comanchepilot said:
Got a story there - a friend of mine was up in NorCal with his Archer when I was up there 2 weeks ago . . .

He came over to STS for a night to visit friends and we ended up leaving within an hour of each other. We both were planning on 9500 to get over Tejon Pass and keep in the smooth air and had the same route planned.

Me: Comanche 260C, 2 people, plus wine, bags, beer [case of Pliny the Elder] and the usual misc crap.

Him: Cherokee 180D [1967] 2 people, usual junk I saw.

Me: 2hr, 19min, avg. speed 168 knots. Fuel burn 31 gallons. [computed used totalizer and based on how much I put back in to usual level after landing] - fuel burn 13.4 gph @ 9500, was showing TAS of 157 when I computed it.

Him 3 hrs 15 min, avg GS 118kts. now for the fun part, Fuel burn, 31 gallons @ 9.5gph. What he put back into the tanks after landing.

Trip was long enough where speed mattered to catch up . .. I find that amazing. . .. so if you had a 140kt and a 115 kt airpalne, the 115kt airplane will prob burn more gas than the 140kt airplane over a 130nm stage length. . . .
Click to expand...

Both spent 31gals, you saved more time.
 
Slipkid65 said:
Those Glasairs are badass!

I've never really been into the homebuilt scene, but I think I still have a Glasair sales brochure from the late '90's that I picked up at Sun N Fun. The only other homebuilt brochures I bothered to pick up that year were Vans and the Thunder Mustang (talk about Badass!)........ Those were the only ones that really piqued my interest!
Click to expand...
Glasairs are slick but good luck getting in (and out, in a hurry) if you're bigger than an FAA adult.
 
Any of the following- All Fixed Gear but for the mooneys.

Piper

Warrior
180
Archer

180 for the most part is the Archer with less room in the back and a Hershey Bar Wing as you know the 180s can be had for significantly less than the Archer which is also a few knots faster.

Cessna
172
182 ( may be more than you need)
175 if you can find one with the conversion to the 180hp lycoming
Cardinal 177 but only with the 180hp engine

Grumman
Cheetah Good value
Tiger

Mooney
M20C
M20F
Both are great planes with good speed and great fuel economy the F has a back seat that is fit for a human the C eh depending upon how long the legs of the guy in front of you are perhaps not so much.

Socata
Tampico
Tabago
both very roomy and very comfortable but slow

Beech
Sundowner-roomy, comfortable very stable, useful load is ok but not as good as the planes listed above and it's nickname is the Slowdower as speed is the price you pay for the comfort.
 
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AdamZ said:
Any of the following- All Fixed Gear.

Piper

Warrior
180
Archer

180 for the most part is the Archer with less room in the back and a Hershey Bar Wing as you know the 180s can be had for significantly less than the Archer which is also a few knots faster.

Cessna
172
182 ( may be more than you need)
175 if you can find one with the conversion to the 180hp lycoming
Cardinal 177 but only with the 180hp engine

Grumman
Cheetah Good value
Tiger

Mooney
M20C
M20F
Both are great planes with good speed and great fuel economy the F has a back seat that is fit for a human the C eh depending upon how long the legs of the guy in front of you are perhaps not so much.

Socata
Tampico
Tabago
both very roomy and very comfortable but slow

Beech
Sundowner-roomy, comfortable very stable, useful load is ok but not as good as the planes listed above and it's nickname is the Slowdower as speed is the price you pay for the comfort.
Click to expand...

my C model mooney has retractable gear. Maybe I'm special? :lol:
 
JimNtexas said:
Are there any of those monstrosities that haven't been groundlooped? If you buy it for a trainer then there will be one less for sure! A C150 doesn't have the rudder power needed for a tailwheel airplane.

Buy a real tailwheel airplane , like a C140, if you want a tailwheel!
Click to expand...

Absolute crap. You must never have flown one. I owned two 140s and flew a Texas tail dragger several times. The converted taildragger has the horsepower a 140 SHOULD have and is no more prone to ground loops than a 140. 140s stock,like most trainers of their time were grossly underpowered !A real drag unless it's been converted to 100 hp at least.
 
As to tailwheel airplanes . . . .MCO does get cross winds - and often - and only has N/S runways - trust me when I say he does not want to groundloop a taildragger and close down a runway at MCO for an hour . . . .
 
I've got about 40 hours of tailwheel time, most of it in an SNJ-5 (my initial TW endorsement, even though there was no such thing at the time..... Another awesome deal back in the day) and the rest in a 7AC. I flew a friend's 150 taildragger with a bigger engine (150 horse iirc) once with him, and it was a blast.

They are a ton of fun, but for this deal I'd prefer a trike.
 
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That short of a run you could use nearly anything. What's really nice is you have the potential to use a floatplane as well, that would be my choice, or an amphib like a Lake or an Avid Catalina.
 
Slipkid65 said:
I am just past the point where I am flat out sick and tired of the drive. I love my job, but I HATE the commute.
Click to expand...

If it is just the drive ... an ultralight helicopter (e.g. Mosquito) or ultralight gyroplane are the low end VTOL (or nearly so) - other than a jetpack - that come closest to replacing the auto. But they might be a tad too slow (55 kts) even though the helicopter would have the best chance of removing the need for any ground transport overhead. Would certainly break the monotony and frustration of the drive in a unique way.

I'm looking for simple, reliable, (relatively) inexpensive transportation that my son can use to train on.
Click to expand...
Pretty much covered by the 2 and 4 seat spam cans already mentioned and under your consideration.
 
Slipkid65 said:
Hi folks!

I am in the market for an airplane to commute roughly 30-40 times per year, between Naples, FL and Orlando. Depending on where I can find hangar space (KAPF, KIMM maybe KMKY), it'll be roughly 110 to 130 NMs via air.

I've been doing the 180 mile (each way) drive for almost 13 years, and between the increasing population and general dumbing down of society, I am well over the thrill of near death every 3-4 days, not to mention I can save about an hour, even if I use KISM vs. KMCO. I've got 15 years left before retirement, and the thought of doing this drive for the better part of 30 years total has got me looking at airplanes!

In addition to the commute, the airplane would likely be used to travel across the state to see relatives a few times per year, and to provide a training platform for my 17 y.o. son.

I'm an ATP and have been flying for over 30 years (well over 20k hours), but haven't been in command of a SEL airplane in over 25, and have only gone for rides with others a handful of times in that time (mostly a friend's T-34).

As much as I'd like a complex single like a Bonanza, Mooney, Comanche etc., I'm thinking that something with gear down and welded, and a fixed pitch prop/O-360 would serve me well (Cherokee 180, 172/180, AA-5 etc) are the most likely candidates. IFR equipped is also a must.

I've flown all of these in the past, as well as worked on them in MX back in the early to mid '80's (no A&P though..... something I truly regret not pursuing when I was doing it every day!) I feel that they'd offer the most bang for the buck for both the commute, overall cost and resale.

In the 30+ years I've been flying, I've only seriously considered buying an airplane once, while I was building time. I've been out of the GA world a long time, and have just begun to research buying and owning one, so ANY advice from you folks would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Based on the above, especially the training platform statement, and own desire for fixed gear, I am thinking Cessna 172 or Cessna 182.

A Cessna 172 is about as bulletproof and "sell it later" as you can get, plus great and forgiveable trainer.

Speed wise, 130 NM is not that far to make a difference between 172 and 182.

I would go 182 if you expect to carry folks sometimes and also luggage, gives you some performance breathing room. Also a little more stable in IMC.
 
So Slipkid65 any top picks yet? or close to a decision?
 
cocolos said:
So Slipkid65 any top picks yet? or close to a decision?
Click to expand...

Still a little early to decide, but I am definitely leaning towards something with a carbed O-360, fixed gear and prop. AA-5B. Cherokee 180 or possibly something like a 172/180. We'll see!

Thanks for everyone's insight. It has been very helpful!
 
Double your budget and buy you a Cirrus SR20:D:yes:, super fast, super nice and super great on 100LL....You can get a nice 1000 HR TT 2001 SR20 for about 100K
 
Slipkid65 said:
Still a little early to decide, but I am definitely leaning towards something with a carbed O-360, fixed gear and prop. AA-5B. Cherokee 180 or possibly something like a 172/180. We'll see!

Thanks for everyone's insight. It has been very helpful!
Click to expand...

I vote for Tiger!:yes:
 
Slipkid, would you consider a partnership? I am based at KISM and am looking to buy soon.
 
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