Plane for sale; Pride of ownership - or lack thereof.

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
12,008
Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
Looking at spending a modest chunk of change for a SEL plane, around $40-60k, and I just got back from looking at one.

The plane was in a T hanger, and the seller asked if I wanted it pulled out. Once I said yes, I want to see it in the sunlight it became apparent why he asked.

The plane was dirty, mud on the underwing behind the tires, two of the tires were bald, brake dust everywhere, exhaust streaks, leaking oil on the belly, paint was oxidized, and dusty, a bit gritty. Old dry bugs on the leading edge, the spinner was unpainted AL, and was cloudy and stained a bit. Interior was dirty, glare shield had a layer of dust, seats were both torn seat covers, food/drink stains on the seats, door card, floor. Empty food wrappers on the floor in back. Empty oil bottle in the baggage bay, windows were fairly dirty, bird crap on the tail near the tail cone.

This was not a low-budget, underpriced example. I asked what the condition was on the phone, and made an appt a week in advance to see it. This tells me the owner doesn't care a whit about his assets and couldn't be bother to even wash or wax it, no matter bothering to replace the seat covers, or put a Pep Boys cover to keep most of the foam inside.

/rant :mad2:
 
It used to amaze me at how people present things for sale, but now I am more shocked if it actually how they describe it! We flew from Atlanta to Dallas in our 310 to look at a 414A, gave the guy 4 days notice, so it wasn't a surprise visit. It was dirty, the battery was dead, both props had nicks in them that I am not sure could be repaired without replacing the blades. We spent 6-8 hours round trip, burned 150-200 gallons of fuel to look at a $400K+ airplane that wasn't airworthy.:mad2::mad2: We were on the ground long enough to see the condition fuel up and head home!:no:
One time we flew to the Miami area to look at a boat, again gave a couple days notice, we arrived at the dock, the captain was living on the boat and apparently wasn't much of a housekeeper! :nono: Boat was dirty and it stunk, 9 hours of flying for nothing. :mad2:
If I guy shows it in bad condition, you know he ain't hiding the fact he doesn't care about it! :rolleyes:

docmirror said:
Looking at spending a modest chunk of change for a SEL plane, around $40-60k, and I just got back from looking at one.

The plane was in a T hanger, and the seller asked if I wanted it pulled out. Once I said yes, I want to see it in the sunlight it became apparent why he asked.

The plane was dirty, mud on the underwing behind the tires, two of the tires were bald, brake dust everywhere, exhaust streaks, leaking oil on the belly, paint was oxidized, and dusty, a bit gritty. Old dry bugs on the leading edge, the spinner was unpainted AL, and was cloudy and stained a bit. Interior was dirty, glare shield had a layer of dust, seats were both torn seat covers, food/drink stains on the seats, door card, floor. Empty food wrappers on the floor in back. Empty oil bottle in the baggage bay, windows were fairly dirty, bird crap on the tail near the tail cone.

This was not a low-budget, underpriced example. I asked what the condition was on the phone, and made an appt a week in advance to see it. This tells me the owner doesn't care a whit about his assets and couldn't be bother to even wash or wax it, no matter bothering to replace the seat covers, or put a Pep Boys cover to keep most of the foam inside.

/rant :mad2:
Click to expand...
 
Flew from mass to wisc. To look at a 310, told owner I was coming and would like a flight . Was going to trade my arrow. When I got there the airplane was in a dark hanger and ,was told the instructor he uses was not available that week. He also didn't want a ride in my arrow,was just looking to downsize. Deal never took place.
 
Maybe I should have been tipped off by one of his texts. He discounted his asking price $2500 before I even saw it in person. I was going to offer $27k, but I think he would be insulted, so I just left. Lucky I only had to drive 4 hours and it was a nice day for a cruise in the Porsche.
 
docmirror said:
Maybe I should have been tipped off by one of his texts. He discounted his asking price $2500 before I even saw it in person. I was going to offer $27k, but I think he would be insulted, so I just left. Lucky I only had to drive 4 hours and it was a nice day for a cruise in the Porsche.
Click to expand...

If he didn't care how the aircraft showed,make the low offer,you never know.
 
frfly172 said:
If he didn't care how the aircraft showed,make the low offer,you never know.
Click to expand...

I still can. That plane isn't going anywhere for a while the way it looks. But, the downside is I then need to spend $$$$ replacing most of the fairings that were split, and missing screws, tires, brakes, seat covers, fix oil leak, trim paint, polish, repl right windscreen, clean panel, repl some stickers, fix loose dzuz fasteners, strip and repaint the horz stab, strip and repl the wing walk..... :wink2:
 
I certainty cleaned my plane for sale. But I never let its surface appearance interfere with my flying. If I had to choose between flying with a bug encrusted wing and an oily belly, or stay on the ground to clean it I was in the air.

I have practically no "pride of ownership." I don' want things to own me, but instead spend my time using them for the reason I bought them.
 
tinerj said:
I certainty cleaned my plane for sale. But I never let its surface appearance interfere with my flying. If I had to choose between flying with a bug encrusted wing and an oily belly, or stay on the ground to clean it I was in the air.

I have practically no "pride of ownership." I don' want things to own me, but instead spend my time using them for the reason I bought them.
Click to expand...

At least you are honest. Would you be insulted if someone offered you about half what you thought it was worth?
 
tinerj said:
I certainty cleaned my plane for sale. But I never let its surface appearance interfere with my flying. If I had to choose between flying with a bug encrusted wing and an oily belly, or stay on the ground to clean it I was in the air.

I have practically no "pride of ownership." I don' want things to own me, but instead spend my time using them for the reason I bought them.
Click to expand...

I'm exactly the same way you are in that regard. The cosmetics of my airplane are objectionable by some on here. It does the job of flying me and my family to a destination. I don't have any "pride" vested in that utility value.

The fact is we're all renters in life and as such we will part with all things material. I bought the airplane to fly it, not to worry about selling it, even recognizing I will eventually sell it at a paper loss.
 
Yep, different strokes. I sold the last two planes for more than I bought. Sure, I did some hours in the hangar when I could have been watching Amer Idle, or playing Xbox.

Different strokes. If you want to offer a plane for sale with dirt and trash in it - that's the spirit!
 
JOhnH said:
At least you are honest. Would you be insulted if someone offered you about half what you thought it was worth?
Click to expand...

No, I would merely ignore the offer. I cleaned it thoroughly, spent $5000.00 getting it in tip top shape before the sale. In the five years I owned it, it was washed only at annual, and never waxed. But it was flown regularly (usually once or twice a week) and safety matters were immediately addressed. The log books reflected the care I took with vital matters.

My suggestion to pilots is that flying the plane an hour will keep it airworthy better than surface cleaning it for an hour
 
tinerj said:
No, I would merely ignore the offer. I cleaned it thoroughly, spent $5000.00 getting it in tip top shape before the sale.
Click to expand...

So, apparently you did the exact opposite of what the seller I happened along did. At this point I can't tell if you agree with me, or disagree. Meh - whatev.
 
When a plane is being polished, it isn't being flown.

My 150 was filthy when I inspected it. I figure I gained about 5 pounds of payload after I got it home and washed all of the grass clippings, mud and bugs off of it.

It's one of the best examples of the 1970 C150K to be found, but I got it at a bargain price because the former owner had lost interest in it after he got his homebuilt in the air. If he had taken the time to wash and polish it, he would have remembered how nice the plane is, and not been so willing to take my offer.
 
SoloEqs said:
When a plane is being polished, it isn't being flown.

If he had taken the time to wash and polish it, he would have remembered how nice the plane is, and not been so willing to take my offer.
Click to expand...

The typical GA pilot flies about 75 hours/year. There are about 8785 hours in a year, so if we remove the ave 75 hours spent flying that only leaves roughly 8700 hours left to polish. Of course, we have to sleep so mulitply 8700 x .66667 waking hours and we're down to a measly 5800 hours avail to clean.

Glad you got a good deal on your 150. Maybe I'll go offer the guy $16,000 and see how it goes.
 
Rainy days are for washing and polishing,if your in a hangar.
 
My point was that most people whose planes are spotless spend all of their time polishing instead of flying it. A plane that's getting regular exercise is generally going to be dirty, because the owner flies it, then is all "airplaned out" and doesn't want to take the time to wash it because he has to go do other stuff, and he's figuring he'll wash it when he comes out next Saturday.

Then Saturday comes, and it's too nice a day to wash an airplane that he could be flying, so . . .

And when an owner spends an hour or two cleaning the plane, he then stands back and admires it, gets some of his pride of ownership back, and is less likely to drop the price much.

Go offer the guy the $16K, he might look at the plane, see the dirt instead of the plane, and take the deal.
 
I've never lost money on a clean and/or restored car or house, I'll bet the same rule of thumb works for planes.
 
0luke1 said:
I've never lost money on a clean and/or restored car or house, I'll bet the same rule of thumb works for planes.
Click to expand...

Agree, AND motorcycles, ATV's, snowmobiles, trailers, trucks, campers...

I don't think that it takes OCD, but a little bit of TLC goes a long way. To some it may seem just "looks" and sure there is the point of view that any polishing could be time spent flying. What about all the things you may notice when you're caring for that item that you've spent thousands of dollars on? When someone else gets in it with you, does it look like you really care for it? When you go to sell it, does it look like you have it the attention needed, or does it look rode hard and put away wet?

I have friends who consistently lose money on things they buy. Can't even sell things for close to what they're worth. I've never lost, or had to accept less than what my things are worth. Add all that up, and it's pretty considerable.

I will give someone more of my hard earned money to buy something used that looks and feels as if it was cared for. Yes, I will pay more for this.

But hey, to each is own!
 
What kinda plane we talking about?
(As I live vicariously through the OP)
 
Jaybird180 said:
What kinda plane we talking about?
(As I live vicariously through the OP)
Click to expand...

I would be remiss if I identified it beyond the general "GA" description. It's older, but in the ~$40-60k price range typically.
 
It's much easier to keep things clean, than it is to clean them up if that makes any sense.

When you put it off, it becomes a monumental job.

I see birds at my A&P's shop that make me wonder how can anyone spend that kind of money, and then just let it rot. Makes no sense to me. I'm no clean freak, but soap, water , and elbow grease are cheap.
 
I just still have a problem seeing c 172 and other se planes as old as me on the market with an asking price of $40,000 or more.
 
Just remember that when you're spending your time cleaning and polishing that aircraft, you're also giving it a much better inspection than you probably do during a normal preflight. If only because now you can actually see the aircraft, and not all the bugs, oil, and dirt covering it!
 
docmirror said:
So, apparently you did the exact opposite of what the seller I happened along did. At this point I can't tell if you agree with me, or disagree. Meh - whatev.
Click to expand...

I am merely describing what I do. In addition, I do not think the surface appearance of a plane is major determination of what it is worth. The logbooks, how safety issues have been addressed, how often it has been flown, and whether it has been kept out of the weather are the vital factors.
 
Not a motivated seller. I ran into this when we were shopping for the Navion. I suspect the guy's wife made him put it on the market, but it was overpriced, and photographed with the most unflattering pictures, and the guy wasn't too interested in promoting it.

On the other hand most everybody else we dealt with would talk your ear off for hours about their plane and send you all sorts of pictures if you expressed interest. I've still got a box full of info on every Navion that was available when I bought mine. I ended up only looking a three (including the one I bought).
 
If you want to sell something it has to be as attractive as possible (period).

Did you meet your future spouse/partner in dirty sweats, un-showered, and a week after you lost your toothbrush? Of course not. If you want to sell a car, airplane, whatever detail it, remove all your personal crap, TRY to look at it as a buyer and address any issues or concerns up front. Be straight up and respect someone spending a lot of time and money to come look at it.

If you don't want to do the above then expect it to take a long time to sell and then at a very low price.
 
flyingron said:
Not a motivated seller. I ran into this when we were shopping for the Navion. I suspect the guy's wife made him put it on the market, but it was overpriced, and photographed with the most unflattering pictures, and the guy wasn't too interested in promoting it.

On the other hand most everybody else we dealt with would talk your ear off for hours about their plane and send you all sorts of pictures if you expressed interest. I've still got a box full of info on every Navion that was available when I bought mine. I ended up only looking a three (including the one I bought).
Click to expand...

Nope, single guy about late 20s. He offered to reduce the price before I even saw it. When I was there I got the usual 'I was too busy - blah blah' as I walked around looking under the wings and fuselage. I got the old saw 'it could use a bit of clean up I guess', thinking that cleaning would take 10 minutes out of his day.

I've also found that people who don't keep their assets fairly clean, also often don't do needed mx. The door seal was quite bad, and coming off in places, most of the placards were curling up in the corner from heat warpage, and various other small problems showed up. Did he do any of the other time-consuming jobs that need to be done? Didn't look like it.
 
I spend about 10-15 minutes cleaning the leading edges and the plexiglass after almost every flight. I have it detailed once a year for about $350 by a pilot that has been doing this for years. He takes all day and does a great job in my hangar. My plane is beautiful and I am proud of it. If I sell it in 10 years I will have around $3,500 in detailing it and I think I can easily recover that in the sales price.
 
I really doesn't take much time to keep a plane spotless. I wash it a few times a year. I wax it once a year (with leading edge touch-ups as required). The inside is kept spotless. Bugs are cleaned off of the leading edges as necessary; a task that's easily accomplished in 10 minutes with a damp cloth because I keep wax on them.

The maintenance is treated with the same, or higher, level of detail.

I'm in the previous poster's camp who said "it's far easier to keep something clean".

I personally feel that the looks of a plane are reflective the overall attitude towards this passion, but to each his own, and I understand that there are always exceptions to the rule.

A side benefit is that non-pilot friends are seldom tentative about hopping in for a ride and they are amazed when I tell them that the plane was built in 1958...I always wait until after we land to tell them that tidbit. ;)
 
Last edited:
JOhnH said:
I spend about 10-15 minutes cleaning the leading edges and the plexiglass after almost every flight. I have it detailed once a year for about $350 by a pilot that has been doing this for years. He takes all day and does a great job in my hangar. My plane is beautiful and I am proud of it. If I sell it in 10 years I will have around $3,500 in detailing it and I think I can easily recover that in the sales price.
Click to expand...

I know a lot of guys that won't leave until every bug splatter is cleaned off. I'd love to always do that too...sadly my wife would read me the riot act if I threw her a rag and asked her to start cleaning bugs at 1am, after flying all day and having to go to work in the morning.

If I'm really doing a lot of flying, it's usually not until my next oil change that I'm doing bug cleaning. In the summer it can get a little dirty before I'm able to get it cleaned up. Most of my flights are longer trips, so it's not unusual to be ready for another oil change after seven or eight trips.

I do keep cleaning towels in the plane for whenever I have a few minutes to kill while out on a trip.
 
I do clean the windscreen before a flight. That is a safety issue. I do start cleaning the oil on cowling if there is the suggestion of an oil leak. That is also a safety issue.

But I don't want any inanimate object to own me.

Focus in all things on the vital few and give short shiff to the trivial many.
 
JOhnH said:
I spend about 10-15 minutes cleaning the leading edges and the plexiglass after almost every flight. I have it detailed once a year for about $350 by a pilot that has been doing this for years. He takes all day and does a great job in my hangar. My plane is beautiful and I am proud of it. If I sell it in 10 years I will have around $3,500 in detailing it and I think I can easily recover that in the sales price.
Click to expand...


Or you could have waited until a week before you sold it and paid $350 once. ;) ;) ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Or you could have waited until a week before you sold it and paid $350 once. ;) ;) ;)
Click to expand...

Do you date ugly women too if they just put a bunch of makeup on before the date?

Perhaps part of the reason I like to keep a clean plane is that my wife loves flying as much, or possibly more than I do. But SHE would not fly in a dirty plane. And anything that keeps her happy...

But I do have pride in ownership, pride in flying and pride in my airplane.
Besides, I have had several linemen tell me how pretty the plane is and that they will be take extra good care of it. Of course, that could be a rehearsed line that insures better tips. And it works.
 
One of the best compliments you can get, is when a little kid that knows nothing about planes, points at yours and says "look at that one mommy!" :)


 
txflyer said:
One of the best compliments you can get, is when a little kid that knows nothing about planes, points at yours and says "look at that one mommy!" :)


Click to expand...

That's a thing of beauty.
 
I don't keep mine spotless but you can bet that if it was for sale she would shine like a new penny!
 
JOhnH said:
Do you date ugly women too if they just put a bunch of makeup on before the date?
Click to expand...


Non-sequitur. The airplane is still pretty underneath the dirt. ;)

I wash ours roughly annually and vaccuum it out. We wipe off bugs almost every flight but one can let that slide when the weather or lateness of the hour says common sense would be to stop by later at the hangar and enjoy some time puttering with the airplane.

Not spotless always, but not trashed.

The point was, why rationalize your $3500? Just say you like keeping the bird clean. The guy down the hangar row can have his looking like yours in a single day for $350. ;)

(And anyone who won't even bother to clean theirs up to sell it, isn't really interested in selling. I fully agree.)

I enjoy cleaning the airplane. Mostly because it means I either truly have a full day off with nothing on the schedule, or I finally said "screw it" in regards to same schedule and I'm playing mental health hookey. LOL
 
txflyer said:
Thanks. I'm arthritic from rubbing it, but it's worth it. :yes:
Click to expand...


Must. Avoid. Obvious. Joke. Here. ;)

Nice job. I do not think I would ever entertain owning bare aluminum because I would have to make it look like that. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top