Fuel for the Diesel aircraft

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
I wonder if we could use the "red dyed" diesel for aircraft like the Redhawk conversion?

The loose definition is that this lower cost diesel is permitted to be used in vehicles for "off highway use". And that definition appears to fit airplanes.

Thoughts?
 
AggieMike88 said:
I wonder if we could use the "red dyed" diesel for aircraft like the Redhawk conversion?

The loose definition is that this lower cost diesel is permitted to be used in vehicles for "off highway use". And that definition appears to fit airplanes.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Yup..... it is an "OFFROAD" vehicle...:yes:
 
Just don't make an emergency landing on a "highway"

Wouldn't want to owe all those back taxes :rofl:
 
AggieMike88 said:
I wonder if we could use the "red dyed" diesel for aircraft like the Redhawk conversion?

The loose definition is that this lower cost diesel is permitted to be used in vehicles for "off highway use". And that definition appears to fit airplanes.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
If it's a type-certified airplane, the fuel is going to have to meet a given standard. Likely, the standard will be that of a given grade of jet fuel. Unless someone develops the appropriate STC (like the autofuel one) you won't be able to use road, off-road, or bio diesel.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
If it's a type-certified airplane, the fuel is going to have to meet a given standard. Likely, the standard will be that of a given grade of jet fuel. Unless someone develops the appropriate STC (like the autofuel one) you won't be able to use road, off-road, or bio diesel.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

Yep :(
 
tax status doesn't change the cloud point. You neeed to worrk about laws of physics more than tax laws.
 
Going along those lines of using diesel in a aircraft. Diesel come in (or used) to come in two grades. #1 Diesel for summer and #2 Diesel for winter use. IIRC the #2 had an anti gel additive. It would seem at altitude you could possibly have a problem with fuel gelling in the cold temperatures.
 
wanttaja said:
If it's a type-certified airplane, the fuel is going to have to meet a given standard. Likely, the standard will be that of a given grade of jet fuel. Unless someone develops the appropriate STC (like the autofuel one) you won't be able to use road, off-road, or bio diesel.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

In related news, I hear Experimental aircraft registrations surged again last year...
 
Foxhole said:
Going along those lines of using diesel in a aircraft. Diesel come in (or used) to come in two grades. #1 Diesel for summer and #2 Diesel for winter use. IIRC the #2 had an anti gel additive. It would seem at altitude you could possibly have a problem with fuel gelling in the cold temperatures.
Click to expand...

Living in the southern Estados Unidos, we have enough trouble getting piston singles up high enough to worry about water ice, let alone fuel gel points. The engine won't know (or care) about the tax status of the fuel in the tanks, but the pilot better think about it a bit and fuel the plane accordingly. This is going to be very similar to the 100LL/Mogas argument - if your location and typical mission allows you to get away with it, then you can do so. Weather and altitude will always be factors there. For Mogas we are fighting high temps with vapor lock in the south, and with diesel they'll be fighting cold temps with gel points in the north.
 
Foxhole said:
Going along those lines of using diesel in a aircraft. Diesel come in (or used) to come in two grades. #1 Diesel for summer and #2 Diesel for winter use. IIRC the #2 had an anti gel additive. It would seem at altitude you could possibly have a problem with fuel gelling in the cold temperatures.
Click to expand...

Flip that around. #1 for cold weather and #2 for warm weather. I worked at a truck stop in Montana for 5 years while going to school and am very familiar with the different types.
 
acluffpoa said:
Flip that around. #1 for cold weather and #2 for warm weather. I worked at a truck stop in Montana for 5 years while going to school and am very familiar with the different types.
Click to expand...

And a quick google shows #1 diesel gel point at -35F to -40F. Not many places in the US where you could get a piston single into air that cold on a regular basis, and certainly not by accident.
 
You also have to consider fuel density. In simplified terms, diesels make power per mass of fuel injected. Fuel injectors are (basically) constant displacement devices for purposes of this conversation, so higher density fuel = more fuel mass injected = more pressure and heat = more power.

When cat, cummins, dd, etc make a truck engine they set the power to a certain amount using a standardized fuel close to #2 diesel, such that it falls within all their limits for cylinder pressure, exhaust temp, turbo speed, etc. When you then fuel your truck in the wintertime with #1 diesel (or kerosene in the arctic) then you get less power. Most engine manufacturers disallow powersetting with lower density fuel because of the risk of exceeding limits if the vehicle is fuelled with heavier diesel fuel. The exception to this is some diesel engines used in military vehicles which run almost exclusively on jet fuel and are powerset accordingly.

If you're paying attention, your diesel pickup truck gets worse mileage in the winter. It's not because of the temperature, that helps mileage. It's because the pump fuel is a lighter blend to avoid clouding and gelling problems.

The airplane engine will be powerset on the factory with kerosene (jet fuel). If you use diesel fuel you will get more power. Enough to damage anything? I don't know and neither do you. Gamble as you see fit.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I wonder if we could use the "red dyed" diesel for aircraft like the Redhawk conversion?

The loose definition is that this lower cost diesel is permitted to be used in vehicles for "off highway use". And that definition appears to fit airplanes.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

The farmers around here solve that problem by always carrying a partially-used bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil around in the vehicle, thus explaining the red tint of the fuel in the unlikely event they are stopped on the highway and their fuel is tested. :rolleyes:

-Rich
 
In addition to stricter quality assurance standards at the refinery for aviation fuels vs. mogas, isn't there also a tighter chain of custody requirement from refinery to dispenser for aviation fuels?
 
JHW said:
won't bother to answer the question since the underlying premise is not true
Click to expand...

I believe the standards defined by ICAO Doc 9977 are much stricter than those for any automotive fuels. It includes specifications for the supply and distribution chain from refinery to aircraft delivery.
 
DrMack said:
I believe the standards defined by ICAO Doc 9977 are much stricter than those for any automotive fuels. It includes specifications for the supply and distribution chain from refinery to aircraft delivery.
Click to expand...
believe what you want. But in practice, with all the overlapping requirements for local fuel formulations, there is far more record keeping related to automotive fuel content and traceability than something as mundane as avgas which is refined for a few weeks each year and then stored for distribution.
 
wanttaja said:
If it's a type-certified airplane, the fuel is going to have to meet a given standard. Likely, the standard will be that of a given grade of jet fuel. Unless someone develops the appropriate STC (like the autofuel one) you won't be able to use road, off-road, or bio diesel.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

That is correct.

Now, the experimental aircraft with diesels can use whatever they want.
 
airguy said:
And a quick google shows #1 diesel gel point at -35F to -40F. Not many places in the US where you could get a piston single into air that cold on a regular basis, and certainly not by accident.
Click to expand...

I have flown a single engine piston a couple of times when the GROUND temp was -35 to -35...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That is correct.

Now, the experimental a/c with diesels can use whatever they want.
Click to expand...

Which should result in even greater savings than just the lower fuel-burn, as it is my understanding that you can purchase "biodiesel"/"cooking oil diesel" for a lot less than at the pump.

There's a Gentleman here locally that makes biodiesel in his backyard, and it seems that there are numerous person/s offering this type of fuel around the Country.

I suppose an Experimental Builder using a V.W. type of diesel could benefit a lot from this source of fuel, if readily available?

Possibly a headache getting the biodiesel to the bird itself though.

If we ever decide to build an Experimental, would most likely go with a TDI 2.0 and take advantage of biodiesel, if it is in fact a very reliable fuel source that is.
 
I'd just be happy if I could burn Jet A. Lower cost to buy and more efficient engine. But if I had an experimental I would be interested in using straight diesel.
 
Biodiesel has characteristics that are diametrically opposed to use in GA, most of all poor storage life and high cloud points. The customers I work with who use high concentrations of bio turn their fuel every 3 days and have fuel heaters, special filters, etc on their vehicles.

Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
 
JHW said:
Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...

Great post :goofy:
 
JHW said:
Biodiesel has characteristics that are diametrically opposed to use in GA, most of all poor storage life and high cloud points. The customers I work with who use high concentrations of bio turn their fuel every 3 days and have fuel heaters, special filters, etc on their vehicles.

Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...

The Algae based Jet A looks very promising, at least to me...:yes:...
 
JHW said:
Biodiesel has characteristics that are diametrically opposed to use in GA, most of all poor storage life and high cloud points. The customers I work with who use high concentrations of bio turn their fuel every 3 days and have fuel heaters, special filters, etc on their vehicles.

Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...


What fuel would that be?
 
EdFred said:
If only it came from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...
Figuratively it does. It comes from ancient biomass of various types. Aside from nuclear materials and silly wind/solar experiments, all sources of energy are biofuel of some sort.
 
Th vast majority of the compostion is from zooplankton and algae. Saying it comes from dinosaurs is like saying ground beef comes from E.coli.
 
Jeff,

Do any modern diesel engines use the DD style mechanical unit injectors? If not, why not?
 
jhausch said:
Jeff,

Do any modern diesel engines use the DD style mechanical unit injectors? If not, why not?
Click to expand...
while much of the industry is using various forms of common rail injection, there are many engines still using EUI (electronic unit injectors) which is basically the same thing as your MUI except with a solenoid valve attached that controls the start and end of injection. There are still some non-electronic MUI engines in production but not for parts of the world that fall under current emissions regulations.
 
JHW said:
while much of the industry is using various forms of common rail injection, there are many engines still using EUI (electronic unit injectors) which is basically the same thing as your MUI except with a solenoid valve attached that controls the start and end of injection. There are still some non-electronic MUI engines in production but not for parts of the world that fall under current emissions regulations.
Click to expand...

I am marginally familiar with early DDEC. Is that the same as modern EUI? As I recall, a camshaft still does the high compression work, but the solenoid on the DDEC, I thought, only allowed or prevented fuel flow all together....

Perhaps you are saying modern EUI uses the solenoid in place of the metering rack?
 
Last edited:
jhausch said:
I am marginally familiar with early DDEC. Is that the same as modern EUI? As I recall, a camshaft still does the high compression work, but the solenoid on the DDEC, I thought, only allowed or prevented fuel flow all together....

Perhaps you are saying modern EUI uses the solenoid in place of the metering rack?
Click to expand...
exactly, cam does the mechanical work, solenoid nominally spills and closes to start injection, opens to end injection (spill)
 
JHW said:
Biodiesel has characteristics that are diametrically opposed to use in GA, most of all poor storage life and high cloud points. The customers I work with who use high concentrations of bio turn their fuel every 3 days and have fuel heaters, special filters, etc on their vehicles.

Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...

Understood:)
 
JHW said:
exactly, cam does the mechanical work, solenoid nominally spills and closes to start injection, opens to end injection (spill)
Click to expand...


So all metering/governing is electronic, then. Interesting.
 
JHW said:
Biodiesel has characteristics that are diametrically opposed to use in GA, most of all poor storage life and high cloud points. The customers I work with who use high concentrations of bio turn their fuel every 3 days and have fuel heaters, special filters, etc on their vehicles.

Don't buy into something based on observation of 2 hippies with a diesel VW van. There is only one biofuel that works for everyone with no sacrifices. That's the biofuel made from dinosaurs.
Click to expand...

Aside from the false premise about the dinosaurs, there has been some work done with respect to taking the oils produced from plant/algae and converting it to the conventional petroleum products we use now with existing refineries. AFAIK, it isn't produced commercially at this time- still in pilot-plant.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Aside from the false premise about the dinosaurs, there has been some work done with respect to taking the oils produced from plant/algae and converting it to the conventional petroleum products we use now with existing refineries. AFAIK, it isn't produced commercially at this time- still in pilot-plant.
Click to expand...
there is research on many things including cold fusion. But when it comes to making our vehicles run we have to work in the here and now, and current technology biodiesels are not a drop-in for all conditions.
 
JHW said:
there is research on many things including cold fusion. But when it comes to making our vehicles run we have to work in the here and now, and current technology biodiesels are not a drop-in for all conditions.
Click to expand...
So you are suggesting that all work on new things stop because we can't use them right now?

People understand your point and are working to make the lipid oils a drop-in replacement for gasoline and diesel engines by converting them to existing fuels. There are also projects to make current biodiesel a drop-in replacement for existing diesel fuels.

The cold fusion snark is non-sequitur to this discussion, but there are experiments considered credible enough, that they continue to warrant seminars at the American Chemical Society meetings (and probably other scientific bodies) without being laughed out of the meeting. I don't follow that research, my (limited) understanding is they are still trying to understand the excess neutron production observed by Pons et al as this has apparently been observed by others.
 
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