Korean 777 Down in SFO

Fearless Tower said:
I'm on a ship right now....YouTube no workie on govt computer....I see nothing.
Click to expand...

That would explain the disconnect. It is a video of the Blues Brothers scene you were quoting from. So I did recognize it.

Sorry if I come across as self righteous. It is probably because I always think I am right. After all, why would I post things I think are wrong to a forum anyone in the world can read? :wink2:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Murray 10530 said:
On the pilots primary flight display (PFD) along the left side, bottom to top is the speed tape. About midway up is a square that has the airspeed number in it.

You are thinking of old generation jets that used an analog airspeed indicator, you won't find one of those in a 777.
Click to expand...
You miss my point: The airspeed should be displayed as a NUMBER, not anything that has to be interpreted.
Click to expand...
 
No box, no tape, only the airspeed NUMBER.
 
I looked at the picture. Too much unneeded info. That's where the trouble is. Did you ever sit in a Prius and look at the "speed indicator"? Then tell me what you think!
 
Murray 10530 said:
I looked at the picture. Too much unneeded info. That's where the trouble is. Did you ever sit in a Prius and look at the "speed indicator"? Then tell me what you think!
Click to expand...

Every one of those pieces of information ARE necessary and presented in pretty much the most efficient way possible.

Yeah, it is a lot to take in if you are new to it, but it just doesn't take that long to get it.
 
Greg is the scan easier with that type of instrument of just different? It seems like having everything in closer proximity would help
 
It is easier in that the scan doesn't take up as much real estate. It is more compact, if that makes sense.
 
That was my intuition, if you dwell on an area you're more likely to notice others where with a 6 pack there's a lot of real estate and nothing to grab you in your peripheral vision
 
Jim Logajan said:
Sorry if I come across as self righteous. It is probably because I always think I am right. After all, why would I post things I think are wrong to a forum anyone in the world can read? :wink2:
Click to expand...
We're all pilots Jim....by definition that makes each one of us right (at least in our own minds). It's all good.
 
It is a number, see the box on the left side of the screen rolling from 30 to 29?

http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/fwd/pfd.html

The box on the right is altitude

My comment: No one needs to know where on a "range" the airspeed is. Only the ACTUAL speed, as a digital number, is needed. Somehow this is very difficult to explain!
 
Murray 10530 said:
I looked at the picture. Too much unneeded info. That's where the trouble is. Did you ever sit in a Prius and look at the "speed indicator"? Then tell me what you think!
Click to expand...

Sit behind a display like that for a few hours and it becomes as easy as reading a speedometer in a car. I would be interested to know your level of experience in transport category aircraft or in any aircraft with MFDs. The displays are not as cluttered as they would at first seem.
 
Murray 10530 said:
I looked at the picture. Too much unneeded info. That's where the trouble is. Did you ever sit in a Prius and look at the "speed indicator"? Then tell me what you think!
Click to expand...


Not trying to be a smartarse, but are you a pilot? All the info in that picture is relevant and useful. Having a tape instead of "just a number" delivers a more easily interpreted idea of your airspeed trend.
 
Murray 10530 said:
It is a number, see the box on the left side of the screen rolling from 30 to 29?

http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/fwd/pfd.html

The box on the right is altitude

My comment: No one needs to know where on a "range" the airspeed is. Only the ACTUAL speed, as a digital number, is needed. Somehow this is very difficult to explain!
Click to expand...

The box doesn't move, its always in the middle of the left side. Just the reading in it changes. The picture shows it in transition but in cruise at 400kt it would say "400". This is the same as your ASI pointing at 29.5kt, you just don't realize it since the analog value isn't converted to digital.

Try it in X-plane it might become clearer.
 
The other question - why is there not a velocity vector on airliner PFD's?

If there is or was - that vector would have clearly put that airplane short when they were descending through the [non-functioning] glideslope and showed the airplane arriving exactly where it did.
 
It might be helpful if you could see it in real life. Greg obviously knows it best, but on most glass both the A/S tape and the ALT tape have the actual number displayed prominently (boxes) in the middle of the gage, and each also contains a a trend indicator (a thin vertical line along the inside edge of each tape) that shows the pilot what the value will be in a few (6?) seconds if the current rate of change remains constant.

If the plane is descending rapidly at a constant speed, the trend line would not appear on the A/S tape but the ALT tape would have a long line extending from the boxed window towards the bottom of the tape. On
Gulfstreams, anyway.

Murray 10530 said:
It is a number, see the box on the left side of the screen rolling from 30 to 29?

http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/fwd/pfd.html

The box on the right is altitude

My comment: No one needs to know where on a "range" the airspeed is. Only the ACTUAL speed, as a digital number, is needed. Somehow this is very difficult to explain!
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
It might be helpful if you could see it in real life.
Click to expand...

Not sure if it will help, but I found the following video on Youtube that seems to do a pretty good job of showcasing a lot of the displays of a Boeing 777 while it is landing in Paris France. Airspeed appears in several places if you look closely, and there are automated audio notifications at several preprogrammed altitudes:


The last minutes of the video would probably correspond to the period of the approach that went bad for the Asiana flight.
 
comanchepilot said:
The other question - why is there not a velocity vector on airliner PFD's?
Click to expand...
Well, there is one on the 787, displayed on its HUD.
But velocity vector (commonly known as FPV - Flight Path Vector) really makes sense only when you also display runway/ground features which often means it works best in combination with synthetic vision. Of course HUD substitutes for SV. But all this is fairly new - but 787 does have it and it is not an option, it is standard.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Sit behind a display like that for a few hours and it becomes as easy as reading a speedometer in a car.

That's my point. A speedometer has a range on numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Sit behind a display like that for a few hours and it becomes as easy as reading a speedometer in a car.

That's my point. A speedometer has a range of numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...
 
Murray 10530 said:
That's my point. A speedometer has a range of numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...

As previously explained to you in this thread the extra numbers are needed to to assist in displaying the trend. Not mentioned previously is that the airspeed tape also shows V speeds and is color coded. Very handy feature to have all the info displayed in one small area.

It doesn't take months to learn to interpret (or interpolate!) the airspeed and other displayed information. Less than a minute to learn to read it since it is pretty intuitive for most folks.

Perhaps you just don't like the display? That's certainly your call. From your questions I suspect you're not a pilot so your preference really is irrelevant.
 
comanchepilot said:
Now I know I'm gonna get 100 flames from guys who will disagree with that - but - explain to us then how you maintain proficiency? You might have 10,000 landings but when 9500 of them were 6 years or more ago . . . . explain to us how you have maintained proficiency in the visual approach and energy management of a 250,000# airplane to a 9000' runway . . . . when you only do it 10 times a year from only 6 miles out?
Click to expand...
I agree with your assessment of the problem (the need to maintain proficiency), but you can still address these issues in the sim. It is a matter of training the technique....not the physical touchdown in the aircraft. And there is no reason that you can't train for periodic hand flown visual approaches in the sim...unless the folks running the training just don't want to which I believe is the bigger problem.

Because we are talking about the approach technique, the number of physical landings in the actual aircraft are not really a problem. This isn't the same as the MD-11 landing issues that the trans-oceanic freight guys have been dealing with.
 
We are trained and tested on visual approaches each time. However, since the sim does not have the same visual fidelity as real life, they use a math method as a "helper".
 
I don't think the video bears resemblance to the Asiana descent other than the gear was down for both.

Jim Logajan said:
Not sure if it will help, but I found the following video on Youtube that seems to do a pretty good job of showcasing a lot of the displays of a Boeing 777 while it is landing in Paris France. Airspeed appears in several places if you look closely, and there are automated audio notifications at several preprogrammed altitudes:


The last minutes of the video would probably correspond to the period of the approach that went bad for the Asiana flight.
Click to expand...
 
Everskyward said:
We are trained and tested on visual approaches each time. However, since the sim does not have the same visual fidelity as real life, they use a math method as a "helper".
Click to expand...
Can you explain the 'math helper'? What kind of sim?

My experience was in a Level D 767-400. Visuals were pretty good. I am told it was very accurate at least into the flare.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Can you explain the 'math helper'? What kind of sim?

My experience was in a Level D 767-400. Visuals were pretty good. I am told it was very accurate at least into the flare.
Click to expand...

I am thinking specifically about level D in a CE-680 (Sovereign). Visuals are pretty good but not like real life.

The "math helper" I am referring to is the 3:1 rule. If you are 1,000' AGL you should be 3 miles out.
 
The 142 centers are limited to the circling approaches they can use because the crew can't see over their shoulder to keep the runway in sight. One of the favorites is the R/4 (right or left) into KJFK with circle to 31R. the crew turns to a heading to establish an offset, flies over the golf course, intersects a VOR radial and looks for the REIL of 31R. The plane will be fully configured for the approach, so once the lights are in sight, immediately start the turn and reduce the power. It works every time.

We all practice and demonstrate the approaches because it's required for the sign-off, but we also know we ain't gonna go home and shoot circling approaches at night. No matter where the boss wants to go. See NTSB for G-III
into Aspen.

Fearless Tower said:
Can you explain the 'math helper'? What kind of sim?

My experience was in a Level D 767-400. Visuals were pretty good. I am told it was very accurate at least into the flare.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
I don't think the video bears resemblance to the Asiana descent other than the gear was down for both.
Click to expand...

I should have included a sentence saying that the video shows what appears to be a normal descent on short final. But the main reason I posted it was that it shows airspeed indicators appearing in several places in the cockpit in both digital and analog dial format.
 
Murray 10530 said:
That's my point. A speedometer has a range on numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...

Sigh.
 
Murray 10530 said:
Threefingeredjack said:
Sit behind a display like that for a few hours and it becomes as easy as reading a speedometer in a car.

That's my point. A speedometer has a range on numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...


Consider the altimeter. Using a tape for the altimeter allows the FMS to display current altitude as well as restrictions (e.g., a TCAS RA can show up on the altitude tape with altitude restrictions - red for altitudes to avoid, green for safe altitudes wrt the TCAS RA).

There is no interpolation to learn.

My airspeed indicator has green, yellow, and red arcs. It provides useful information to see immediately if I'm near the top of green arc. In your example of just a number, I'd lose information.
Click to expand...
 
comanchepilot said:
Now I know I'm gonna get 100 flames from guys who will disagree with that - but - explain to us then how you maintain proficiency? You might have 10,000 landings but when 9500 of them were 6 years or more ago . . . . explain to us how you have maintained proficiency in the visual approach and energy management of a 250,000# airplane to a 9000' runway . . . . when you only do it 10 times a year from only 6 miles out?
Click to expand...

The same way everyone does: having your butt sweating in a sim twice a year.
 
zaitcev said:
The same way everyone does: having your butt sweating in a sim twice a year.
Click to expand...

you think thats enough? I'm starting to wonder with the rash of airmanship accidents . . . . we go almost 10 years with no major accidents [other than the obvious stupidity like flying into mountains, Russians into airplane because they don't 'believe' the tCAS alert, and just being in Africa] and we have example after example of landing long and fast and sliding off wet runways, setting up a steep slow glide and not making the runway, or stalling it in from 7 miles up . . . . basic airmanship instead of stupid decisions is becoming the major driver now.
 
Murray 10530 said:
Threefingeredjack said:
Sit behind a display like that for a few hours and it becomes as easy as reading a speedometer in a car.

That's my point. A speedometer has a range of numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong. That number can flash yellow if it begins to get out of safe range, RED if the pilot approaches danger.

Why is all the extra numbers needed? Why spend months learning to interpolate?
Click to expand...

From the lack of aviation experience displayed in your comments, you obviously will never have to deal with the MFDs in a large transport jet, so why worry about it???? :dunno:
Click to expand...
 
Murray 10530 said:
That's my point. A speedometer has a range on numbers when the driver only needs to know the actual speed so the cop can be shown wrong.
Click to expand...

This gets dumber by the post.

Your speedometer doesn't show "0" when you've pulled over for the police officer?

ROFLMAO.

You're really reaching hard for something to grab onto after numerous professional pilots who FLY THE SAME AIRCRAFT have stated the display is easy to read and use, aren't ya?

;) ;) ;)

:popcorn:
 
Holy hell, did anyone watch Colbert Report tonight? Referring to the racism and the names, said it was racist because those were Chinese names, not Korean names. Less racist would be Ho Yo Lan Dis Tang?

Pure gold.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top