Power in the flare

david0tey

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I had always been taught by my first instructor to cut the power when you have the runway made and keep it at idle unless you balloon and need to recover. I now have an instructor who tells me to carry a little power into the flare and let the plane settle when it is ready. The latter has been more effective for me up to this point. I was just curious as to what everyone's opinions were on what is the "right" way to do it.
 
What do you fly? Fixed pitch or constant speed? Big engine or small? Heavy plane or light? Clean one or aerodynamically dirty?

"I was taught to..." always makes me shudder a little. Makes it seem like there's no real thinking going on. What do you think you should do, and why?

I never flew a powered parachute (ain't never gonna either), but it might be different than landing an LSA, doncha think?

dtuuri
 
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The "right" way is to nail the optimum airspeed for landing your aircraft.
 
Landing a plane has no "right" technique that applies in all weather conditions. The two examples you put forth are tools in your tool box. On a dead calm day or one with a steady breeze, power off works great. On a gusty crosswind day, not so much. Learn to use as many tools as you can and use them at the appropriate time. The key is to arrive a few inches over the selected point of touchdown at the proper speed and correctly aligned. How you get there, as long as it is safe, is up to you.
 
Fly the plane.... Use whatever technique you need to maintain the appropriate air speed and attitude.
 
What do you fly? Fixed pitch or constant speed? Big engine or small? Heavy plane or light? Clean one or aerodynamically dirty?

"I was taught to..." always makes me shudder a little. Makes it seem like there's no real thinking going on. What do you think you should do, and why?

I never flew a powered parachute (ain't never gonna either), but it might be different than landing an LSA, doncha think?

dtuuri

The mighty skyhawk. When i'm flying the da-20, it actually works better for me to just chop the power when I have the runway made. I speculate that this is because of the added influence of ground effect on the low-wing airplane. It gives me more time to work with the flare that way. When i'm in the 172, it seems like if I cut the power when I have the runway made, I lose my airspeed before i'm ready for the plane to settle. I also like to fly the plane onto the runway, rather than having the stall horn blaring and letting it drop onto the runway.
 
I had always been taught by my first instructor to cut the power when you have the runway made and keep it at idle unless you balloon and need to recover. I now have an instructor who tells me to carry a little power into the flare and let the plane settle when it is ready. The latter has been more effective for me up to this point. I was just curious as to what everyone's opinions were on what is the "right" way to do it.
As many pilots (including CFIs who should know better) have discovered, "carrying a little power" through the flare and touchdown can make for more consistently smooth landings. IME this concept is often introduced when the pilot transitions from a trainer to something a bit heavier with higher landing speed and greater elevator control forces. There is a perception that this type of airplane "glides like a manhole cover" because the sink rate (at the same glide angle) is higher due to the faster landing speed but the reality is that until you actually reach the critical AoA you can trade airspeed for vertical speed to make a reasonably soft touchdown with the engine idling.

And there is a cost in terms of wasted runway and the potential for overruns is significantly increased if the runway isn't at least three times as long as the POH data suggests. In addition to the fact that any power above idle during the roundout will lengthen the pre-touchdown glide, it's unlikely that the pilot will use the same amount of extra power each time. And when the day comes when the power ends up a bit higher than average and some combination of light or cross wind, a bit shorter runway than the pilot is accustomed to, an aiming point that's a bit further down the runway than usual, the results can range from hard braking on the remaining runway to forcing the plane on too fast or even a trip through the fence beyond the end of the runway.

The thing is, power in the flare (except when necessary to arrest unexpected excessive sink) is a crutch and IMO pilots who adopt this as SOP are being sloppy. It is every bit as possible and nearly as easy to make smooth landings with power reduced to idle in the roundout as it is to carry power to touchdown, the primary difference being that things (e.g. decrease in control effectiveness) happen more rapidly. And if the wind is gusty or you're fighting a difficult crosswind extending the time spend from roundout to touchdown is actually counterproductive WRT a good landing.

There are a couple situations where carrying power to touchdown makes sense. One is when initially learning to land an unfamiliar airplane (on a sufficiently long runway). In that case, extending the time spent in the flare is likely to allow the pilot to become familiar with the airplane's characteristics in that flight regime more quickly but once the pilot is comfortable landing with the crutch they should begin to wean themselves off of it with the goal of making most landings with power at idle. Another is when making a true "soft field" landing where touching down at the lowest possible airspeed and near zero vertical speed is more important than reducing the landing distance. In that case runway length is usually not an issue because the soft surface will decelerate the airplane quickly once there's some weight on the wheels and typically if there's enough runway to take off when it's soft, there's plenty of excess for landing.

Finally, IME pilots who habitually land with power are more likely to botch an emergency landing because the power off flare and touchdown are so unfamiliar. YRMV.
 
I learned on a TW plane and there are two techniques. First is no power, slow aft stick until all three tire touch at the stall. Timing it is important. Second is carry a bit of power, and round out, then just a nudge forward to stick the main gear on, then reduce power and let it settle. Two different methods, both work fine.

For trikes, it's highly dependent on the plane. The Comanche is one of the toughest to make a good landing every time. On that, I carry a little power to improve the tail authority, and then reduce once the tires touch. On the few Cessnas I've flown (C150,152,172,175) they work fine with the chop, drop, stop method. Bad mojo for a Comanche, or a Bonanza which also likes a little throttle on touchdown.
 
TW three-point technique can also include a touch of power to get the tail down and hold it where you want it, especially on gusty west-TX days.

I learned on a TW plane and there are two techniques. First is no power, slow aft stick until all three tire touch at the stall. Timing it is important. Second is carry a bit of power, and round out, then just a nudge forward to stick the main gear on, then reduce power and let it settle. Two different methods, both work fine.

For trikes, it's highly dependent on the plane. The Comanche is one of the toughest to make a good landing every time. On that, I carry a little power to improve the tail authority, and then reduce once the tires touch. On the few Cessnas I've flown (C150,152,172,175) they work fine with the chop, drop, stop method. Bad mojo for a Comanche, or a Bonanza which also likes a little throttle on touchdown.
 
As a new Cirrus guy, I still go for idle, but only right before wheels touch. Doesn't float like a 172. Exception is soft field, where a bit of power is added at touchdown to keep weight off the mains.

Faster, slicker, nose heavy planes do better this way, or so I'm told by my instructor.
 
The mighty skyhawk. When i'm flying the da-20, it actually works better for me to just chop the power when I have the runway made. I speculate that this is because of the added influence of ground effect on the low-wing airplane. It gives me more time to work with the flare that way. When i'm in the 172, it seems like if I cut the power when I have the runway made, I lose my airspeed before i'm ready for the plane to settle. I also like to fly the plane onto the runway, rather than having the stall horn blaring and letting it drop onto the runway.
JOOC, why are you not "ready" to land when the airspeed has decayed sufficiently? Are you behind the airplane due to unfamiliarity or you just uncomfortable compressing the roundout to the time the airplane requires with power off? Another possibility is that you're not willing to raise the nose sufficiently towards the end of your flare to use all the energy left (if you're truly stalling and dropping onto the runway full deflection of the elevator is probably not your problem). Or perhaps you're simply starting to flare too high above the ground. I find I get the most consistent landings when I begin to pitch up at or below 10-15 ft AGL depending on the descent angle and wing loading. A common landing mistake is to begin a very gradual pitch up (with associated slow reduction in airspeed) as high as 100-200 AGL. The correct technique is to maintain a constant descent angle and speed during the last few hundred feet until the roundout is purposely initiated close to the ground.
 
Have you noticed an increase in the amount of runway you use? Some airplanes will float a long ways if you leave a bit of power on.

For the most part, yes, power off touchdown is the way to go. However it can be used in some scenarios as others have described.
 
TW three-point technique can also include a touch of power to get the tail down and hold it where you want it, especially on gusty west-TX days.

ok...
 
I learned on a TW plane and there are two techniques. First is no power, slow aft stick until all three tire touch at the stall. Timing it is important. Second is carry a bit of power, and round out, then just a nudge forward to stick the main gear on, then reduce power and let it settle. Two different methods, both work fine.

For trikes, it's highly dependent on the plane. The Comanche is one of the toughest to make a good landing every time. On that, I carry a little power to improve the tail authority, and then reduce once the tires touch. On the few Cessnas I've flown (C150,152,172,175) they work fine with the chop, drop, stop method. Bad mojo for a Comanche, or a Bonanza which also likes a little throttle on touchdown.
With a bit of practice you can make wheel landings with power off but it is easier if you leave some on until you stick it. I've flown with some pilots who can consistently make a wheel landing at idle from an approach flown at the same 1.2-1.3 Vso used for a three-pointer while managing the energy so well that the airplane was very close to stall as the wheels touched (and no, I'm not there yet).
 
With a bit of practice you can make wheel landings with power off but it is easier if you leave some on until you stick it. I've flown with some pilots who can consistently make a wheel landing at idle from an approach flown at the same 1.2-1.3 Vso used for a three-pointer while managing the energy so well that the airplane was very close to stall as the wheels touched (and no, I'm not there yet).

ok. But, that wasn't the question the OP asked. I can do a lot of things, but I'm responding to a particular question asked by the OP. So, not sure why you're quoting me?
 
The thing is, power in the flare (except when necessary to arrest unexpected excessive sink) is a crutch and IMO pilots who adopt this as SOP are being sloppy.

+1, although I'd stress "crutch" more than sloppiness. It is totally unnecessary in a 172, and using power in this fashion is a cover for building the basic flying skill of energy management. I don't like teaching methods that assume a pilot will be at the beginner skill level forever, when they could be forcing the student to very early and quickly build skills that obviate the need for these "crutch" techniques. Keep in mind even some CFIs never built a comfort level with certain things, and are passing on their own need for a "crutch" to their students. IMO, any instructor who thinks a 172 should have power on in the flare for normal landings is lacking ability and experience. The 172 is a floater. Bush pilots use power in the flare, but I doubt your instructor is teaching you bush techniques.
 
If you're practicing, keep the speed closer to the top of the range for a bit longer. Arriving over the threshold with a tiny bit more speed allows you to decelerate with the tail up, with the knowledge that the resulting wheelie will probably be a bit more tail-down than if you used power to maintain attitude.


With a bit of practice you can make wheel landings with power off but it is easier if you leave some on until you stick it. I've flown with some pilots who can consistently make a wheel landing at idle from an approach flown at the same 1.2-1.3 Vso used for a three-pointer while managing the energy so well that the airplane was very close to stall as the wheels touched (and no, I'm not there yet).
 
ok. But, that wasn't the question the OP asked. I can do a lot of things, but I'm responding to a particular question asked by the OP. So, not sure why you're quoting me?
I was responding to you, not the OP and expanding on what you wrote. No intention to be critical of your abilities, just typical thread drift.:D
 
If you're practicing, keep the speed closer to the top of the range for a bit longer. Arriving over the threshold with a tiny bit more speed allows you to decelerate with the tail up, with the knowledge that the resulting wheelie will probably be a bit more tail-down than if you used power to maintain attitude.
I'm not seeing why that should work but I'm willing to try it and see if it helps. But it seems to me that if you cross the threshold faster you just end up further down the runway when you've decelerated to the speed you want when the wheels touch.
 
There is no "right" method. You are caught between two instructors who use/teach different techniques. My guess is that your POH is silent on the subject...my 172P book, under Normal Landing, says not one word about power setting (it does say, under Descent, "Power as desired"). It talks about airspeed and flap settings, but not power. So it is up to you...which method do you feel more comfortable with? Note that a tad of power increases elevator effectiveness, which might become important some day.

When you transition into airplanes with constant-speed props, you will learn that pulling the power all the way off creates more drag than you might expect; take a look at Figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Bob Gardner
 
I think the second instructor is just pointing out that in a 172 with two full sized adults up front and no baggage or rear passengers a bit of power can make it a bit easier to land. I don't think the advice by either instructor is meant as a blanket technique to cover all situations.
 
If you're practicing, keep the speed closer to the top of the range for a bit longer. Arriving over the threshold with a tiny bit more speed allows you to decelerate with the tail up, with the knowledge that the resulting wheelie will probably be a bit more tail-down than if you used power to maintain attitude.


I'm not seeing why that should work but I'm willing to try it and see if it helps. But it seems to me that if you cross the threshold faster you just end up further down the runway when you've decelerated to the speed you want when the wheels touch.

Right. Touchdown attitude is airspeed dependent. If you touchdown at a certain attitude all coming over the fence faster is going to do is give you more time to work above the runway and put you further down it.

I would approach at the same speed for a wheel or 3pt...hold it off until in the correct attitude for a 3pt, however for the wheel you just ease the mains on as you are still slowing/rounding out/ lowering the tail...then once they touch just reduce the angle of attack / raise the tail / "stick it" as some say...
 
Try it and see what happens. I don't know if I could do it consistently for a short-field approach, but know it works for normal landings for which my goal is to achieve a power-off wheelie squeaker. I attribute it to being able to decelerate more slowly with the tail up which in turn provides the results I want. Local tower wants a turn-off at the same taxiway anyway, which is more than enough for any landing technique I might use that day.

I'm not seeing why that should work but I'm willing to try it and see if it helps. But it seems to me that if you cross the threshold faster you just end up further down the runway when you've decelerated to the speed you want when the wheels touch.
 
One consideration, when power is carried through to touchdown, is published landing distances tend to go out the window. That might not be too much of a problem if you've got a long runway, but it could become an issue if the runway is shorter.

I would recommend using the procedures published in the POH or AFM or else you run the risk of using one bad technique to compensate for another. Are there appropriate times and reasons to carry power through the touchdown? Of course, but as a normal procedure? Read you POH and see what it says.
 
...My guess is that your POH is silent on the subject...my 172P book, under Normal Landing, says not one word about power setting (it does say, under Descent, "Power as desired"). It talks about airspeed and flap settings, but not power. So it is up to you...
I was just looking at a copy of a 172M POH. Under Section 2 is states that "Normal landings are made power-off with any flap setting desired."
 
As many pilots (including CFIs who should know better) have discovered, "carrying a little power" through the flare and touchdown can make for more consistently smooth landings. IME this concept is often introduced when the pilot transitions from a trainer to something a bit heavier with higher landing speed and greater elevator control forces. There is a perception that this type of airplane "glides like a manhole cover" because the sink rate (at the same glide angle) is higher due to the faster landing speed but the reality is that until you actually reach the critical AoA you can trade airspeed for vertical speed to make a reasonably soft touchdown with the engine idling.

And there is a cost in terms of wasted runway and the potential for overruns is significantly increased if the runway isn't at least three times as long as the POH data suggests. In addition to the fact that any power above idle during the roundout will lengthen the pre-touchdown glide, it's unlikely that the pilot will use the same amount of extra power each time. And when the day comes when the power ends up a bit higher than average and some combination of light or cross wind, a bit shorter runway than the pilot is accustomed to, an aiming point that's a bit further down the runway than usual, the results can range from hard braking on the remaining runway to forcing the plane on too fast or even a trip through the fence beyond the end of the runway.

The thing is, power in the flare (except when necessary to arrest unexpected excessive sink) is a crutch and IMO pilots who adopt this as SOP are being sloppy. It is every bit as possible and nearly as easy to make smooth landings with power reduced to idle in the roundout as it is to carry power to touchdown, the primary difference being that things (e.g. decrease in control effectiveness) happen more rapidly. And if the wind is gusty or you're fighting a difficult crosswind extending the time spend from roundout to touchdown is actually counterproductive WRT a good landing.

There are a couple situations where carrying power to touchdown makes sense. One is when initially learning to land an unfamiliar airplane (on a sufficiently long runway). In that case, extending the time spent in the flare is likely to allow the pilot to become familiar with the airplane's characteristics in that flight regime more quickly but once the pilot is comfortable landing with the crutch they should begin to wean themselves off of it with the goal of making most landings with power at idle. Another is when making a true "soft field" landing where touching down at the lowest possible airspeed and near zero vertical speed is more important than reducing the landing distance. In that case runway length is usually not an issue because the soft surface will decelerate the airplane quickly once there's some weight on the wheels and typically if there's enough runway to take off when it's soft, there's plenty of excess for landing.

Finally, IME pilots who habitually land with power are more likely to botch an emergency landing because the power off flare and touchdown are so unfamiliar. YRMV.

:yeahthat:

I've carried extra power to the runway when I was unfamiliar with a particular aircraft...but I always make it a goal to practice until I'm able to rid myself of need for the extra power.
 
Just to make sure everyone understands, I don't ever carry power all the way to touch down. I carry power into the flare to get me level, 5-10 ft above the runway, and then ease back on the power while also finishing the flare and touchdown. By the time the mains touch down, the power is always at idle.
 
Just to make sure everyone understands, I don't ever carry power all the way to touch down. I carry power into the flare to get me level, 5-10 ft above the runway, and then ease back on the power while also finishing the flare and touchdown. By the time the mains touch down, the power is always at idle.

That's how I understood it. And the point still remains that any power (above idle) once you cross the threshold will elongate the landing and using this technique as your SOP will make it more difficult to cope with certain situations. Those situations could be as simple as a shorter field than you normally use or as critical as an engine out landing.
 
I now have an instructor who tells me to carry a little power into the flare and let the plane settle when it is ready.

:confused:

Just to make sure everyone understands, I don't ever carry power all the way to touch down. I carry power into the flare to get me level, 5-10 ft above the runway, and then ease back on the power while also finishing the flare and touchdown. By the time the mains touch down, the power is always at idle.

In your first post it sounded like you left a little power in and touched down like that. If all you are doing is leaving a little power in above the runway, taking it out just a tad later than normal could just be the way some people do it, esp with some higher performance airplanes.

Not sure why there is an entire thread about this now if the power was always at idle touching down.
 
The mighty skyhawk. When i'm flying the da-20, it actually works better for me to just chop the power when I have the runway made.
That's pretty much what most everyone flying a 172 does, although I'd make a smooth reduction to zero throttle rather than "chop the power" -- makes life a lot easier on the crankshaft counterweights.
 
I was just looking at a copy of a 172M POH. Under Section 2 is states that "Normal landings are made power-off with any flap setting desired."
That's right -- normal landings. However, in a 172, the normal approach to a landing is best made in a partial-power stabilized approach with throttle reduced to idle when the landing is assured.
 
Not sure why there is an entire thread about this now if the power was always at idle touching down.

Because power in the flare in a 172 is completely unnecessary, extends landing distance, and is a crutch that will prevent you from learning to fly the airplane well, with precision. I see lots of people at the flight school carry power all the way down in 172s, and most of them float over 2000' down the runway. It's really not that hard to fly a 172 power off, at 1.3Vso, and manage the flare. There aren't many airplanes easier to do that in, actually.
 
You're not endangering anyone by carrying a little extra power. Don't get caught up on what is "Standard" by definition. If it works for you, and you're comfortable with it, use it.
 
When i'm in the 172, it seems like if I cut the power when I have the runway made, I lose my airspeed before i'm ready for the plane to settle.
I would say the 172 has more windmilling drag and a dirtier airframe, so it loses speed faster than the DA-20 when you cut power. Keeping a bit of power merely makes the plane a better glider, it doesn't make the pilot a slob. During the lion's share of the flare, it keeps the airflow over the elevator nice and smooth, for better control, but other planes are far more likely to benefit from the technique.

I also like to fly the plane onto the runway, rather than having the stall horn blaring and letting it drop onto the runway.
Not me. I like slow touchdowns at or near the stall. A touch of power can help you land slower, too, because the airflow over the wing/tail is less disturbed by the prop wash. Think "zero thrust" instead of "zero throttle".

dtuuri
 
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I'm not seeing why that should work but I'm willing to try it and see if it helps. But it seems to me that if you cross the threshold faster you just end up further down the runway when you've decelerated to the speed you want when the wheels touch.

There are about 6 different ways to do wheel landings. The power off, touch down at stall seems more like a 3 point where you just decided to raise the tail instead of holding it on the ground. I am not sure what the point of it is except in some extreme short feild techniqes where it plants the mains and allows for heavy braking.

The higher speed touch downs allow for a much flatter touch down (i.e. lower angle of attach) the advantages are better visiabilty and the ability to set the airplane on gently. It does use more runway but can be useful you need to come in fast.

Brian
 
...more like a 3 point where you just decided to raise the tail instead of holding it on the ground. I am not sure what the point of it is except in some extreme short feild techniqes where it plants the mains and allows for heavy braking....

It's to keep the tailwheel from getting beaten up over rough ground and rocks. Basically any time you are landing on something that is not an airstrip of one sort or another the tailwheel is vulnerable
 
Leaving power on is soft field technique in a nutshell. Power off -- along with a precise fairly slow approach speed -- is short field technique. You must be able to do both.

I have yet to experience a runway where I can't do a good soft field landing with minimal braking due to length. Even in a Cardinal or Skylane with no flaps. KPAO is 2400 feet.

Your passengers will appreciate soft landings whenever feasible.
 
POWER OFF

Once you have the runway made, POWER OFF.

same with tailwheel, I can two point or three point without power.

You need to learn to land the plane with out the "training wheels" of power.

If ya want through it out later, just, at least, learn how to do it properly first.
 
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