Sport vs. PPL

Then why aren't we suggesting she go part 103? I know G650 rated pilots who fly pt 103 for fun.

She didn't ask. Plus I bet the part 103 options within public transit range of NYC is pretty limited. Although I have what could be considered part 103 time in Manhattan.:wink2::lol:
 
Yes, get what you want, but you're here for advice from other pilots. I'm a PPL for + 30 years, plenty of hours, towing, pleasure, business, a little acro, TW, complex, HP, comm, but no IR.

For your mission now, I vote sport pilot. But - with the following caveats.

A. Train ONLY with a CFI who is rated for PPL due to the fact your hours will go toward either.

B. Go to a aeromedical doctor and get pre-evaluated for a flight physical. That is, have yourself checked for all things that would be covered in the PPL physical without first applying. This way, if you are found with any medical constraints, you cannot later say you "denied" an flight physical and Sport will still by an option. If the doc sees no problems on the pre-eval you can get the flight physical or not, as you chose. But - once you're in the system, you're in the system and you can't go back to not being in the system. Something to consider.

C. The new Sport pilot(LSA) planes are nicer, and newer than much of the PPL fleet like the 172 that you like. If the 172 catches your fancy, the Remos or the StingSport may be just that much better to you. They are generally light on the controls, great vis, easy to manage and just as roomy. Fly a LSA and see what you think. They are more suceptible to choppy or turbulent air, but that can be managed.
 
I'm not sure the certification is most important in her decision. There are people in this forum who got their PPL in less than 40 hours and there are people who took more than 50 hours to complete the SPL. What's most important is to learn to fly. It's like college. You don't have to declare a major to start. You don't have to commit to a cert in the first few lessons, but the core training will be revealing. You'll be deciding if you even like the airplane you're training in or if the CFI's style meshes with the way you learn. Choosing one or the other can come later. I'm 8 hours into my PPL and I chose the Private because once I have it, I can fly almost anything. The SPL fits 99% of what I want to do, but unless I buy a plane(or win one in the 1941 Air Terminal Museum raffle :D) there will be nothing to fly around here.

Think of it this way, if you train and get your Sport Pilot license in the minimum 20 hours, are you ever going to stop learning to fly or limit how often you fly? If you find you love it, then what's the difference in flying 40 hours in a year as a licensed Sport Pilot and flying 60 hours and passing the PPL checkride? The only difference is more CFI time, and that's hardly a bad thing.
 
Again BS. :mad2:

There are a lot of PILOTS that fly ultra lights because they can. Not because they don't have a pilot's license, but because they love flying light planes. Powered parachutes, ultra lights, what ever, it is about flight and piloting an aircraft. Why are you so obsessed with putting other pilots down for flying something other than what you fly? It's getting old man. Lighten up!

I nominate that for most hypocritical post of the year.

I'm not putting anyone down for flying anything, I don't own or fly a G650 because I can't. IMHO there's no compelling reason to only get an SPL over PPL unless you bring medical issues to the table.

If its all you can get, get it. If youre content with it GREAT. For someone who can walk into a doctors office and walk out an hour later with a third class medical, I don't see the point. I don't know a single person who flies only LSA and doesn't do so for medical reasons. Anybody?
 
I don't know a single person who flies only LSA and doesn't do so for medical reasons. Anybody?

Yes. But he is getting his PPL now since the LSA shop stopped renting. Another friend with PPL and medical preferred LSA because he could rent a "nicer" airplane for less than a ragged-out Warrior.
 
For someone who can walk into a doctors office and walk out an hour later with a third class medical, I don't see the point. I don't know a single person who flies only LSA and doesn't do so for medical reasons. Anybody?

Me! Did for a year and was happy as can be. I have my PPL now because eventually I'll move into bigger stuff, but I still fly only LSAs for the moment. When I had to get my medical, I got it with no issues. Walked in, got poked and prodded as usual, and walked out, no problem. I have yet to have an occasion to carry more than one passenger or fly over 10,000 ft. I think the highest I've ever been was around 5500 ft, and I've done a few 100 mile journeys.

Hoping to potentially go for my instrument rating this summer, though, when I'll start flying those massive hulks called 172s. They're huge!
 
I don't know a single person who flies only LSA and doesn't do so for medical reasons. Anybody?


Me, RogerT, several others I know. Because they fly SP doesn't mean they cannot pass a medical.

I have a medical and fly SP all the time. Hell, I built one.
 
You said you didn't know anyone that could get a medical that was flying LSA. We have shown you several people say they do, including me.

Haven't seen one yet, and that's not what I asked. Reread what I wrote.
 
The person who wants to do his/her own maintenance can do that on an ELSA that they own and with a 16 hour course can sign off their own condition inspection. A person who has passed the 120 hour course can do maintenance on and sign off any SLSA and ELSA.

I know a local pilot who could afford anything he wants, but is a good mechanic and likes to do his own maintenance so he bought an SLSA.

This does not address the OP, simply a comment on a facet of S&E LSA ownership that some find valuable.
 
Who here would have no issues going tomorrow and passing a 3rd class medical, yet only has and flys an LSA? I haven't seen one person yet.

Pick me! For at least a little longer. Taylorcraft and a pietenpol in my fleet. Although I am pursuing more certificates starting this spring. More for business opportunity as opposed to want. I am perfectly content flying around the Tcraft, landing at grass strips And enjoying the journey. No electrics or radio. I'm 29 and in pretty good health.


-VanDy
 
My closing argument, then I'll shut up and you guys who own RV-10s can continue to say how sufficient having only an SPL is.

Some facts below are inaccurate because I don't feel like looking up the exact numbers, but for the most part true.

In a time not so long ago there was this thing called Part 103 (Which still exists today) that required zero training to fly, these planes (and I'm not sure the FAA even recognizes them as planes) had to be under something like 250 lbs and only capable of hauling the pilot around i.e. single seater. Realizing that a 250lb object capable of helping a person defy gravity was potentially dangerous, and especially if the person had no experience piloting aircraft, the FAA extended an olive branch and said "Hey guys, if you want to build a 2 seater variant to teach people to fly theses crafts, go right ahead and we wont even saddle you with onerous regulations, just get a cert from the ultralight association and you can put 2 seats in and raise the weight up to 1000lbs or so FOR TRAINING ONLY and WE MEAN IT". Well, next thing you know, a wink and a handshake later and every Tom Dick and Harry is an ultralight flight instructor "wink wink nod nod" Pretty soon they're flight instructing their wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends, friends and unsuspecting strangers right into the ground or ER. So the FAA says, "We knew they'd hang themselves" so they step in and regulate every 2 seater right up to but not including a C-150, because those are already regulated. Some of the already regulated rag wing Pipers, Lubscomes and Aeroncas slide in at about the same weight as some of the "wink wink nod nod" instructional ultralights so they get covered by the new regulation too.

The FAA says to the "wink wink nod nod" instructional 2 seat ultralight crowd. "You're going to get some instruction and oversight to operate these, we'll knock the training requirments down to a little less than PPL and won't subject you to the medical regulations, as long as you haven't failed a medical, but this wink wink nod nod instructional 2 seat ultralight trainer BS is stopping".

2 seat ultralight problem solved via closing the gap between pt 103 and a Cessna 150. In other words an extremely small segment of aviation where only VERY few planes exist and only a few already regulated planes exist. A virtually non-existent market, there was ZERO market for the higher end LSA (a la Piper Sport, C-162 etc...)

Next thing you know, Ole Joe realizes his old Aeronca can now SQUEEEEEZE in to the new "fat ultralight" regulation and he can sell it to Jim who sold his 172 because he had medical problems and didn't bother to renew. Jim thinks 'I could get by with that" SOLD!!! Then, manufactures are like "Hey we could build some of these things and sell em' to the folks who can't get a medical."

There was nothing stopping people from flying or building planes that could qualify as LSA before the LSA rules were in place, Cessna coulda built the C-162 60 years ago, they didn't. There was just ZERO, NADA ZIP, ZILCH demand for it save for a few part 103 folks skirting the laws by claiming to be instructional aircraft. There is a market for a plane you can fly without a medical though, and with the boomers ageing, a potentially large market.

What the SPL is, is a niche market of aircraft that sprung from a regulation to clamp down on fat instructional ultralights not being flown for instructional purposes. A SkyCatcher isn't built as viable alternative to a larger airplane, it's built as a trainer and/or an option for a guy with $100K+ in his pocket and buys it because it's about the nicest thing he can get and fly without passing a medical, and he can't pass a medical.

One could argue that the PPL standards are "too much" of a barrier to entry into flying and that the SPL rectifies that? Op asked "Which one?" which makes me think the barrier isn't monetary and isn't medical. The FAA lowered the standards and created the Recreational Pilot cert, virtually no takers. For the most part, the barrier between SPL and PPL is non existent EXCEPT FOR THE MEDICAL requirement. If cost is the barrier between SPL and PPL, just hang it up now, over the course of flying and staying proficient , the cost and time commitment is insignificant between PPL and SPL.

If anyone here thinks I'm coming down on them for flying SPL, I apologize. I read BeechTalk everyday, almost everyone one of those guys are flying ultra nice Bos, Barons, PC-12s, Aerostars etc... I'm not about to thell those guys that my old 35 is all they need, Damn right I want my own PC12 and I'd have one if I could afford it. Also in my line of employment, I run across people daily who laugh at PC12s as "cute" and make fun of little planes my my Bo. If you can only fly SPL due to medical concerns, my heart is with you, I'm sure I'll cross that bridge one day too.

In my utopia the FAA would just drop the 3rd class medical requirement for domestic PPL privileges, my hunch is the SPL would dry up overnight if they did. That is why I think a perfectly healthy person with no issues should just get their PPL instead of settling for the loophole closing, that had zero demand until you bring the medical argument SPL license.
 
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My closing argument, then I'll shut up and you guys who own RV-10s can continue to say how sufficient having only an SPL is.

Some facts below are inaccurate because I don't feel like looking up the exact numbers, but for the most part true.

In a time not so long ago there was this thing called Part 103 (Which still exists today) that required zero training to fly, these planes (and I'm not sure the FAA even recognizes them as planes) had to be under something like 250 lbs and only capable of hauling the pilot around i.e. single seater. Realizing that a 250lb object capable of helping a person defy gravity was potentially dangerous, and especially if the person had no experience piloting aircraft, the FAA extended an olive branch and said "Hey guys, if you want to build a 2 seater variant to teach people to fly theses crafts, go right ahead and we wont even saddle you with onerous regulations, just get a cert from the ultralight association and you can put 2 seats in and raise the weight up to 1000lbs or so FOR TRAINING ONLY and WE MEAN IT". Well, next thing you know, a wink and a handshake later and every Tom Dick and Harry is an ultralight flight instructor "wink wink nod nod" Pretty soon they're flight instructing their wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends, friends and unsuspecting strangers right into the ground or ER. So the FAA says, "We knew they'd hang themselves" so they step in and regulate every 2 seater right up to but not including a C-150, because those are already regulated. Some of the already regulated rag wing Pipers, Lubscomes and Aeroncas slide in at about the same weight as some of the "wink wink nod nod" instructional ultralights so they get covered by the new regulation too.

The FAA says to the "wink wink nod nod" instructional 2 seat ultralight crowd. "You're going to get some instruction and oversight to operate these, we'll knock the training requirments down to a little less than PPL and won't subject you to the medical regulations, as long as you haven't failed a medical, but this wink wink nod nod instructional 2 seat ultralight trainer BS is stopping".

2 seat ultralight problem solved via closing the gap between pt 103 and a Cessna 150. In other words an extremely small segment of aviation where only VERY few planes exist and only a few already regulated planes exist. A virtually non-existent market, there was ZERO market for the higher end LSA (a la Piper Sport, C-162 etc...)

Next thing you know, Ole Joe realizes his old Aeronca can now SQUEEEEEZE in to the new "fat ultralight" regulation and he can sell it to Jim who sold his 172 because he had medical problems and didn't bother to renew. Jim thinks 'I could get by with that" SOLD!!! Then, manufactures are like "Hey we could build some of these things and sell em' to the folks who can't get a medical."

There was nothing stopping people from flying or building planes that could qualify as LSA before the LSA rules were in place, Cessna coulda built the C-162 60 years ago, they didn't. There was just ZERO, NADA ZIP, ZILCH demand for it save for a few part 103 folks skirting the laws by claiming to be instructional aircraft. There is a market for a plane you can fly without a medical though, and with the boomers ageing, a potentially large market.

What the SPL is, is a niche market of aircraft that sprung from a regulation to clamp down on fat instructional ultralights not being flown for instructional purposes. A SkyCatcher isn't built as viable alternative to a larger airplane, it's built as a trainer and/or an option for a guy with $100K+ in his pocket and buys it because it's about the nicest thing he can get and fly without passing a medical, and he can't pass a medical.

One could argue that the PPL standards are "too much" of a barrier to entry into flying and that the SPL rectifies that? The FAA lowered the standards and created the Recreational Pilot cert, virtually no takers. For the most part, the barrier between SPL and PPL is non existent EXCEPT FOR THE MEDICAL requirement. If cost is the barrier between SPL and PPL, just hang it up now, over the course of flying and staying proficient , the cost and time commitment is insignificant between PPL and SPL.

If anyone here thinks I'm coming down on them for flying SPL, I apologize. It's just not appealing to me. If you can only fly SPL due to medical concerns, my heart is with you, I'm sure I'll cross that bridge one day too.

In my utopia the FAA would just drop the 3rd class medical requirement for domestic PPL privileges, my hunch is the SPL would dry up overnight if they did. That is why I think a perfectly healthy person with no issues should just get their PPL instead of settling for the loophole closing, that had zero demand until you bring the medical argument SPL license.


Is this your manifesto? :dunno:


:rofl:
 
Is this your manifesto? :dunno:


:rofl:

Nope, just letting people who fly RV-10s that insist SPL is all you need know why I hold the view that, for a healthy person, stopping in at SPL is a waste of time. And try to convince people that my viewpoint isn't me attempting to bash them for choosing to fly LSA.While people who are perfectly happy flying only LSA aircraft (while owning an RV-10 ) insist that me holding a viewpoint contrary to theirs is an attack.
 
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Nope, just letting people who fly RV-10s that insist SPL is all you need know why I actually hold the view that for a healthy person, stopping in at SPL is a waste of time. And try to convince people that my viewpoint isn't me attempting to bash them for choosing to fly LSA because people who are perfeclty happy flying LSA while owning an RV-10 insist that holding a viewpoint contrary to theirs is an attack.

Wow.... just wow.

Take the night off Rusty, you are losing it.
 
Rusty. If a man is convinced that Sport Pilot is BETTER, his mind is made up. He is not going to be amenable to any sort of reasoning.

No one said SP was better than a PPL, the point is it is a "form" of flying that should not be put down by Rusty and others. The experience of flying light aircraft has served me well as I started flying complex and high performance aircraft. That is my experience, and my opinion. I have as much of a right to express my opinion as you do.
 
I don't understand the fat ultralight guys that threw in the towel, they were already breaking the reg with noninstructional flights, don't have a license to lose, and would just be breaking a diffferent FAR.
 
I don't understand the fat ultralight guys that threw in the towel, they were already breaking the reg with noninstructional flights, don't have a license to lose, and would just be breaking a diffferent FAR.

I don't follow you.

Most if not all of the fat UL's were transitioned into SLA. I bought several registered them, and sold them as LSAs.

Speaking for me, I was a licensed UL pilot, and a licensed instructor. Anyone I took up signed a student liability waiver. Several instructors I know continued on and are now SP instructors. I could have also, but I no longer wanted to instruct as I was too busy buying and selling aircraft.

For those who don't think sport pilot can help with your flying experience and education it took me 28 days to get my PPL. :dunno:
 
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I don't understand the fat ultralight guys that threw in the towel, they were already breaking the reg with noninstructional flights, don't have a license to lose, and would just be breaking a diffferent FAR.

Planes with 2 seats got an N-Number painted on them.

"License and registration please"

And just for bonus points, with an N-Number plane in the databases... the tax man cometh.
 
Planes with 2 seats got an N-Number painted on them.

"License and registration please"

And just for bonus points, with an N-Number plane in the databases... the tax man cometh.

Right but if they didnt register them and kept doing what they were doing doubt they would have faced any consequences. They were already violating the reg.
 
Right but if they didnt register them and kept doing what they were doing doubt they would have faced any consequences. They were already violating the reg.

The incentive was the value of their airplane. You could not flying the after a certain date.

The consequences are the same if the local FSDO catches you. But the FAA took a carrot on a stick approach and most complied. There are a few farmers still flying without licences, but that has been going on for ever.
 
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No one said SP was better than a PPL, the point is it is a "form" of flying that should not be put down by Rusty and others. The experience of flying light aircraft has served me well as I started flying complex and high performance aircraft. That is my experience, and my opinion. I have as much of a right to express my opinion as you do.

I have put down nothing, it's just not for me, underwear 2 sizes to too small isn't for me either, wearing a tutu and dancing the ballet isn't either. It doesn't mean I'm out bashing people who wear tight underwear or enjoy ballet. And from my experience entering a holding pattern at SPL is for the most part ONLY for the folks who can't get a medical. I don't think having the gallery say "SPL IS ALL YOU NEED" is a fair assessment of situation either so I'm offering a counter point. I'm sorry if you think that's putting anything down, hell you have an RV-10. Why not sell it and just fly the 12 since it's all you need? Think of the money you'll save. SPL has huge restrictions vs a PPL. people like to compare the best in breed LSAs to the low hanging fruit "regular" planes and still have to concede several selling points, while only being equal on a few and "winning" on even less.
 
I have put down nothing, it's just not for me, underwear 2 sizes to too small isn't for me either, wearing a tutu and dancing the ballet isn't either. It doesn't mean I'm out bashing people who wear tight underwear or enjoy ballet. And from my experience entering a holding pattern at SPL is for the most part ONLY for the folks who can't get a medical. I don't think having the gallery say "SPL IS ALL YOU NEED" is a fair assessment of situation either so I'm offering a counter point. I'm sorry if you think that's putting anything down, hell you have an RV-10. Why not sell it and just fly the 12 since it's all you need? Think of the money you'll save. SPL has huge restrictions vs a PPL. people like to compare the best in breed LSAs to the low hanging fruit "regular" planes and still have to concede several selling points, while only being equal on a few and "winning" on even less.

Because I want both planes? :dunno:

I have the best of both worlds. RV-12 for daily flying and short hops, RV-10 for going places. You said it yourself a while ago that you would rather drive 200 miles than fly. Hell, I fly 45 miles just to look at a camper or another airplane. I fly 60 miles with a buddy for lunch during the week. Flying is fun to me, de-stressing, exciting, challenging, I love every minute of every flight.

LSA offers simplicity, freedom, economy, and exciting aircraft to fly.

Rusty, fly on over here and will take the -12 up for a fly. If after an hour you don't like it I'll buy you lunch. :dunno:
 
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Because I want both planes? :dunno:

I have the best of both worlds. RV-12 for daily flying and short hops, RV-10 for going places.

My second plane, and soon, will be a Cessna 120 or Cessna 140 (My wife wants one). Gotta shed a little debt and then my box hangar will be full, because I want both. If I only had an SPL, I'm not sure I could have either. Does a C-120 make it in to LSA? I think C-140s are a few lbs too heavy.

After re-reading the posts, is it true that after 120hrs of training you can do the MX on your LSA (not the experimental ones)?
 
Because I want both planes? :dunno:

I have the best of both worlds. RV-12 for daily flying and short hops, RV-10 for going places. You said it yourself a while ago that you would rather drive 200 miles than fly. Hell, I fly 45 miles just to look at a camper or another airplane. I fly 60 miles with a buddy for lunch during the week. Flying is fun to me, de-stressing, exciting, challenging, I love every minute of every flight.

LSA offers simplicity, freedom, economy, and exciting aircraft to fly.

Rusty, fly on over here and will take the -12 up for a fly. If after an hour you don't like it I'll buy you lunch. :dunno:

I'll come to NE when you get a Harmon Rocket in stock, I'll even pretend I'm interested in buying it if you'll take me for a ride.
 
I know several people who can pass a medical with only fly LSA's. they are not on here, because they prefer to be flying or building. The Rans S-7, S-6 are great little backcountry planes. J-3, Taylorcrafts, Ercoupe and the like are very popular LSA's legal airplanes. Rans S-19 or the Vans RV-12 which you can build for $60k are fun 135mph aircraft and only burning 5 gph.

Full disclosure...I'm a Private pilot with 450hrs. But for the first 200+hrs I only had more than 1 passenger about 4 times. So for roughly 95% of those flight hours I easily could have been flying under Sport Pilot rules. I fly an RV, but many days I wish I had a S-7 or similar to go cruise the lake shore or spot elk in the mountain meadows.

I say to the OP, go fly both and then look at your budget. Make sure your instructor has the right credentials so you can transfer all your hours if needed. Then get what ever license works for you. Getting your SPL might get you out there flying sooner. You'll be developing your skills and decisions, growing as PIC. Having to do a check ride later (if you move up to PP) will be a piece of cake after you fly for a year or two.

Saturday, we flew 26 miles because my wife left something at her work. We could have drove but it was a beautiful day so we took the RV, then borrowed a courtesy car then flew home. The 1.5 hr drive (roundtrip) took us 4 hrs, because we like airplane people and hung out at both airports too long....Can't wait to do it again. LSA would have been perfect that day.
 
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Personally, you came here because you have doubts about the sports pilot is the way to go. You said you love the 172....Getting either the sports or private pilots license is a journey. So take which ever road gives you the most pleasure now and in the future.

Most pilots go through a range of ratings and we never seem to be happy with what we got....so I see it as a journey rather than a end achievement.

If you enjoy the techram and it saves a few dollars for the first 20 hrs and if those hours are applicable towards the PPL then maybe I would go that route.

If I didn't care for the technam or i couldn't use all that time towards my ppl then I would not fly them.
 
If I didn't care for the technam or i couldn't use all that time towards my ppl then I would not fly them.

Has nothing to do with the aircraft, you can get your Private in a Tecnam, it's about the quals of the CFI giving the dual time. If you use a Sport Pilot CFI you won't be able to carry those instruction hours over.

But I think the OP, Aviatrix wisely bailed on her own thread when all the nonsensical boasting and bickering started.
 
My second plane, and soon, will be a Cessna 120 or Cessna 140 (My wife wants one). Gotta shed a little debt and then my box hangar will be full, because I want both. If I only had an SPL, I'm not sure I could have either. Does a C-120 make it in to LSA? I think C-140s are a few lbs too heavy.

After re-reading the posts, is it true that after 120hrs of training you can do the MX on your LSA (not the experimental ones)?
Neither the 120 or 140 are LSA's

This is the one I learned to fly in back in the 1970's:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_744301_1946+Cessna+120.html

Easy to fly. Got my brother and I to Alaska and back.
 
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