Quick back to back approaches…..Normal?

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LmannyR

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Luis R
I’ve met all my requirements for IFR training. I fly the local approaches quite well down to MDA/DH. Radios I have no issues with at all. In fact I like talking on the radio. I have one particular area I’m messing up on and starting to focus on to correct: I forget to start the timer on ILS and VOR at FAF. We use Garmin 650 and 430 (in different tail numbers), WAAS enabled. Instructor insist I use the timer even though the GPS will point out the MAP. I think the GPS is a heck of a lot more accurate than my timer.

Next issue I’m having is last minute changes…

Example one, and the worst one (super unrealistic) I’ve experienced:
Plan on the ground is to fly KSUA to KVRB to KFPR then to KSUA with an approach at each. We start up engine and I program the flight plan in the 430. Instructor even gave me the first approach at KVRB which I also loaded up. I do the same in foreflight.
10 miles from KFPR, instructor calls approach requesting FF. Then requests an approach at KFPR landing east. Controller tells him they are landing west. So he stumbles a bit and requests a RNAV 28L. Approach gives us a code, finds us and immediately tells us to turn LEFT direct JUDU. Remember, we planned on KVRB. I don’t know where JUDU is. I start to load it up on iPad to get head toward JUDU. Instructor says. Get off your iPad and load it in the 430 first. So I comply but still no change in heading since I don’t know where JUDU is as I’m still loading up the approach. He takes controls and says, you need to be faster, they want us direct JUDU. I fired back at instructor and said, yeah this is VERY unrealistic. In fact, I can ask the controller for a vector to the JUDU while we load up the unrealistic change in flight plan. He stayed quiet. He says I need to be prepared for last minute changes because it happens “all the time”.
I don’t see how an entire flight plan will change without the pilot knowing and getting caught off guard.

We spoke about this on debrief and admitted that he should have given me a heads up.

Example 2:
We do 3 approaches back to back. With almost no time between the first and second to fully setup. Usually it’s with the same airport and it’s a different plate. So needs a full brief and if it goes from an RNAV to a ILS, where there a couple extra steps.

This one can be doable if again the entry gave ample time to setup. In reality, I would ask for a delay vectors to load up approach. When the instructor is “the controller” seems when I barely have enough time to setup. If we used the towered facilities nearby and getting FF for the approaches, it goes smooth since they sequence us in usually at the end of the line.

Instructor says we need to do 3 approaches within a 2 hour flight to prepare for the check ride.

Are these normal tactics to IFR training?
 
Timer is in case the GPS quits.

And BTW, this doesn't sound unrealistic at all. You've got to be ready for changes, they happen all the time. The 430 should make it easy to find JUDU (although I don't think you have the waypoint right, as there should be 5 letters): just select the approach, with entry JUDU. And, you can't always get a vector from ATC. If they are a sector, I've had them tell me they are not that precise in the airport environment.

And sounds like normal training to me.
 
LmannyR said:
they want us direct JUDU. I fired back at instructor and said, yeah this is VERY unrealistic.
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In my opinion realistic.

Controllers will at times ask for something you are unprepared to handle. That may not be often but it is realistic.

That also does NOT mean you have to accept what the controller says. It is very possible that could set you up for a bad situation. The controller is not flying the airplane.

If you need time to prepare for a different approach then always have in the back of your mind "UNABLE". You could ask for a vector to go back out, prepare the new approach then come back in when you are prepared and have briefed the new approach.

or maybe accept the new approach but ask for a little help at the start of the change?
immediately tells us to turn LEFT direct JUDU. Remember, we planned on KVRB. I don’t know where JUDU is.
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Request vectors to JUDU to give you time to load the new approach. Most likely the controller is very willing to help you out with whatever you need.
 
Ha. Approaches never change fast. Hahahahahahahaha.

So there I was...

Heading into Louisville Standi----uh...Muhammad Ali, cleared the for the ILS 17L. I'm getting close to THUND when approach gives me a heads up "The wind just switched, fly direct Louisville [VOR] for vectors ILS 35R." So, now I'm just about due east of SLGRR and Approach comes back with "Wind switched again, we're back on 17L. Fly heading 290, and keep the speed up, you've got UPS behind you."

Yeah, it changes and it changes fast sometimes.

When I do my currency flights, I don't dilly-dally with time in between.

Punch this up on your favorite planning software Y70 6D6 8D4 GRR GRR 9D9. Oh, and it's being done at 135kts+.
 
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EdFred said:
Ha. Approaches never change fast. Hahahahahahahaha.

So there I was...

Heading into Louisville Standi----uh...Muhammad Ali, cleared the for the ILS 17L. I'm getting close to THUND when approach gives me a heads up "The wind just switched, fly direct Louisville [VOR] for vectors ILS 35R." So, now I'm just about due east of SLGRR and Approach comes back with "Wind switched again, we're back on 17L. Fly heading 290, and keep the speed up, you've got UPS behind you."

Yeah, it changes and it changes fast sometimes.
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Yup. Two days ago, in the clag on an ILS they have me first fly maximum speed for a Cessna Citation flying up my rear-end, then I'm slowing at the final fix like Maverick trying to "hit the brakes for a Mig" before I pop out of the 700 foot ceiling ask me to climb and give me a vector for a "runway problem" (never did figure out what it was). But yeah, the approaches can change fast.
 
Country Flier said:
Yup. Two days ago, in the clag on an ILS they have me first fly maximum speed for a Cessna Citation flying up my rear-end, then I'm slowing at the final fix like Maverick trying to "hit the brakes for a Mig" before I pop out of the 700 foot ceiling ask me to climb and give me a vector for a "runway problem" (never did figure out what it was). But yeah, the approaches can change fast.
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It's one of the reasons I overload my approaches for currency. Flying most of them for real is then easy peasy. Looked at my last currency flight where I did 6 of them. Flight time was 1:27 - and that was leisurely at 190nm flown..
 
One thing I missed in the original post. Why are you using a timer on an ILS at all? Your missed is an altitude on the ILS, not time past the FAF. And like I had a CFII and DPE tell me. You fly either the LOC or the ILS, not both. If the GS goes out on the ILS, don't switch it to a LOC approach in the middle of it. Go missed, and do it as an LOC. There's 0 reason to use a timer on an ILS.
 
You need to learn to anticipate that the fix will usually be on the plate. JUDUD is an IAF on that approach. All you had to do was load the approach and hit direct enter enter.
 
I’m sure I’ll get quicker at loading the approaches. Guess I need to work on doing that faster while hand flying in the turbulent Florida summer weather.
 
The checkride is usually rapid fire approaches. Real life, typically not so much. Just know your GPS cold and be ready to push buttons. If you have an autopilot, use it when loading things into the GPS.
 
EdFred said:
One thing I missed in the original post. Why are you using a timer on an ILS at all? Your missed is an altitude on the ILS, not time past the FAF. And like I had a CFII and DPE tell me. You fly either the LOC or the ILS, not both. If the GS goes out on the ILS, don't switch it to a LOC approach in the middle of it. Go missed, and do it as an LOC. There's 0 reason to use a timer on an ILS.
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That’s exactly why… switching to LOC if glideslope failed.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
The checkride is usually rapid fire approaches. Real life, typically not so much. Just know your GPS cold and be ready to push buttons. If you have an autopilot, use it when loading things into the GPS.
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Mauro
NealRomeoGolf said:
The checkride is usually rapid fire approaches. Real life, typically not so much. Just know your GPS cold and be ready to push buttons. If you have an autopilot, use it when loading things into the GPS.
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Autopilot would be nice.
 
LmannyR said:
That’s exactly why… switching to LOC if glideslope failed.
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Perhaps you missed the part where you shouldn't switch the type of approach you are on in the middle of it. You fly one, or you fly the other, not both. What happens when you are below an altitude for the LOC but not the ILS when the GS goes out? Maybe your CFII needs to re-evaluate what he teaches, and you should question a little more.
 
EdFred said:
Perhaps you missed the part where you shouldn't switch the type of approach you are on in the middle of it. You fly one, or you fly the other, not both. What happens when you are below an altitude for the LOC but not the ILS when the GS goes out? Maybe your CFII needs to re-evaluate what he teaches, and you should question a little more.
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I see no problem changing to a LOC app if you lose GS. If you are below LOC mins, and lose GS, you would do the same thing as on a ILS, go missed.
 
I feel your pain. The training environment can be pretty hectic, but on occasion ATC will throw a curveball at you in real IMC, and you need to be able to cope. Pretty much every IPC I do is like this. One minute you are on vectors-to-final, then at the last minute you get cleared to a fix on a transition route that you have to fumble up and figure out which way to turn to meet ATC expectations and not create a conflict with other traffic. Fortunately, real IFR is USUALLY simpler, but on occasion...

If flying any procedure with a GNS-430/530 box, just don't do vectors-to-final even if ATC pinky-swears they are going to give you vectors to final. Just load the whole approach, and when you get the curveball from ATC, hopefully the fix they send you to will already be in the box. I've been burned on the vectors-to-final one too many times.
 
It sounds like you are drinking from the instrument rating firehose and mostly keeping up, but not quite there yet. We all went through this, and we will all tell you the same thing: One day, you'll have a training flight like the one you just described (multiple different approaches in an hour or two, last-minute changes to the approach, other monkey wrenches thrown in seemingly out of spite, and talking to controllers who aren't even having their own banner days on the radio) except you'll be two steps ahead of the instructor and a half hour ahead of the airplane the entire time. That's the day your instructor should endorse you for the check ride.

If I were you, here are the things I would be working on right now to get from today to the check ride endorsement with your instructor:
  1. Get into the habit of setting the timer for every approach. This just isn't a hill to die on. Setting the timer doesn't hurt you and making it a habit might keep you from missing it if you do have to fly a timed approach on the check ride. You will eventually come up with your own personal minimums about things like when it's okay to change from an ILS to LOC after you've begun the approach, but for now just set the timer as your instructor likes to see.
  2. Look through the catalog of approaches for each airport you will fly to as soon as you learn that you will fly there. If you know that KFPR is on your itinerary, check the charts before you check the oil in the plane. If it's thrown at you in the air, take every idle second you have to familiarize yourself with the place. If you had known beforehand that KFPR has an RNAV 28L (or even just that it has approaches for the landing-west scenario), you might have told your instructor about it before he stumbled on the radio. In reality, you will have lots of idle time in cruise to think ahead of the plane. In training, you just need to get used to not having that luxury and staying ahead of the plane to buy yourself time to pre-brief things.
  3. Download the Garmin 430W and 650 trainer software and practice for the super-realistic scenario you described, along with any others you struggled with. If you are sharp with the panel-mount navigator, you can have the RNAV 28L half loaded and see that JUDUD is one of the transitions to it before ATC clears you direct to it. This is about 5 times easier in the panel than in an iPad when things are going well and 100 times easier when they're going badly, such as trying to find the approach in turbulent night IMC while ATC sounds like a machinegun, although it's hard to hear your callsign over your dog barking and passengers asking if you have any more motion sickness relief baseball hats they can use. The better your button-mashing skills, the less mental bandwidth you throw away on tasks like loading an approach and the more you can dedicate to spatial orientation and situational awareness.
  4. Listen to your instructor and absorb the lessons he is giving you. He didn't tell you to get off your iPad and load things in the 430W first just to be difficult. He wanted you to do it that way because it is the most efficient and safest way to get from where you were to where ATC wanted you to be. This is a habit that might make the difference between life and death in your flying future.
Your instructor isn't exaggerating any of what you described. My check ride was 1.3 hours including 3 approaches and 2 landings, and you will often find that your flight plan doesn't survive first contact with ATC. When you really do get ahead of the firehose, these things will be much easier for you to process and you will not run out of mental bandwidth when they come your way and there isn't anyone in the plane who can help you. Keep drinking from the fire hose, don't forget to breathe, and you'll get there soon enough.
 
iamtheari said:
Your instructor isn't exaggerating any of what you described. My check ride was 1.3 hours including 3 approaches and 2 landings, and you will often find that your flight plan doesn't survive first contact with ATC.
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No kidding. I rarely put more than the first couple of fixes in any filed IFR flight plan from my home field into my GNS-430W. The filed route ALWAYS changes when I pick up ATC after departure, or shortly thereafter when they can send me on my way, rather than to the out-of-the-way fix they have to initially send everyone to in order to assure separation. There is always ample time to enter the next fix or two of a clearance to stay ahead of the airplane. Sometimes planning too far ahead is just a hindrance.
 
EdFred said:
One thing I missed in the original post. Why are you using a timer on an ILS at all? Your missed is an altitude on the ILS, not time past the FAF. And like I had a CFII and DPE tell me. You fly either the LOC or the ILS, not both. If the GS goes out on the ILS, don't switch it to a LOC approach in the middle of it. Go missed, and do it as an LOC. There's 0 reason to use a timer on an ILS.
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If you don't run a timer, and the GPS and GS fail on the ILS, how do you know WHEN to go missed? Just something I've always done for SA and not a bad habit...and ingrained in me because I trained before GPS.
 
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Country Flier said:
I'd disagree on some approaches in valleys with turns. Turn in the missed I mean.
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What if you screw up the timer? Accidentally hit reset, put in the wrong time, etc???

Find me an approach like that were timing is going to be everything. ASE required dual receivers for example. Many require DME, etc...
 
iamtheari said:
...He didn't tell you to get off your iPad and load things in the 430W first just to be difficult. He wanted you to do it that way because it is the most efficient and safest way to get from where you were to where ATC wanted you to be. This is a habit that might make the difference between life and death in your flying future....
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Amen. The 430W is certified for IFR navigation; the iPad isn't. That means that for both legal reasons and safety reasons, the 430W should be set up first.
 
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Mongoose Aviator said:
Can you not climb immediately on current heading?
And then turn either when you pass the MAP (if you know) or when you climb above the MSA or when ATC provides radar vectors?
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Sure...Or....when your timer says you've passed the MAP...there are approaches that you might not be able to climb straight ahead beyond the MAP due to performance vs terrain.

Edfred, again I disagree with your logic that my timer could be bad so I shouldn't use one at all.
 
Country Flier said:
Sure...Or....when your timer says you've passed the MAP.

Edfred, again I disagree with your logic that my timer could be bad so I shouldn't use one at all.
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I didn't say it was bad and not to use it, just don't use it on an ILS. An ILS is an ILS and a LOC is a LOC. Same plate? Sure. BUt they are different. Fly one or the other. Not both.
 
EdFred said:
I didn't say it was bad and not to use it, just don't use it on an ILS. An ILS is an ILS and a LOC is a LOC. Same plate? Sure. BUt they are different. Fly one or the other. Not both.
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Question: as an IFR student, the ILS seems superior to me... From a practical POV, why would someone choose a LOC over ILS if both are options for the same rwy?

Also to the OP -- my instructor teaches pretty much the same way. Except the biggest wrench that gets thrown into our approaches is going to busy non-towered airports where people in the pattern either don't know how to treat our practice approach, or our approach is for the runway not in use. For safety reasons we often end up switching mid-process or going to a new airport all together.
 
EdFred said:
He posted about a GPS approach and a an approach where DME is required. Not applicable.
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And he also said turning early can be bad, as well as climbing straight ahead past MAP can be bad...he didn't give other plates that example why its bad, yes.
 
Also, I use my GPS to confirm my altitude, to confirm the MAP, etc. Whats wrong with using a timer on an ILS to confirm those as well...if my GPS or my timer are way off from what I see on the ILS, I may have an issue. Its silly to me to ignore a tool...
 
Ok, a quick look at a few mountain approaches found this one...if you're on the GS, at 6000 feet, and the GS quits, wouldn't an immediate turn be dangerous, as opposed to a turn at the MAP? Not the best example, I know, but it was a 2 minute search LOL:

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2305/svg/00365IL16R.svg

And depending on your climb performance, a straight ahead climb could be bad too.
 
Country Flier said:
if you're on the GS, at 6000 feet, and the GS quits, wouldn't an immediate turn be dangerous
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I may have missed the relevant context quote. Where was an immediate turn at FAF being suggested as a wise course of action by somebody?
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
I may have missed the relevant context quote. Where was an immediate turn at FAF being suggested as a wise course of action by somebody?
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My point was that I still time my ILS approach, but EdFred said not to and turn immediately. I'm using the timer to determine or confirm MAP.

I've got myself in the habit of timing EVERY approach that has a time table in it. Works well for me, and not sure why it would be wrong to do so on an ILS.
 
Country Flier said:
My point was that I still time my ILS approach, but EdFred said not to and turn immediately. I'm using the timer to determine or confirm MAP.
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I see no downside to timing the ILS approach.
On the other hand, I still do not see the context quote for what you said that EdFred said. In fact, I see him saying something distinctly different.
 
Country Flier said:
And he also said turning early can be bad, as well as climbing straight ahead past MAP can be bad...he didn't give other plates that example why its bad, yes.
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I agree that turning early is bad in mountainous areas. I agree that flying past is bad in mountainous areas. But when you are in a valley approach you aren't going to be LOC and timer only. It's going to be DME or GPS required.

Country Flier said:
My point was that I still time my ILS approach, but EdFred said not to and turn immediately. I'm using the timer to determine or confirm MAP.

I've got myself in the habit of timing EVERY approach that has a time table in it. Works well for me, and not sure why it would be wrong to do so on an ILS.
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I never said to turn immediately. I said to go missed immediately. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference.
 
Country Flier said:
Ok, a quick look at a few mountain approaches found this one...if you're on the GS, at 6000 feet, and the GS quits, wouldn't an immediate turn be dangerous, as opposed to a turn at the MAP? Not the best example, I know, but it was a 2 minute search LOL:

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2305/svg/00365IL16R.svg

And depending on your climb performance, a straight ahead climb could be bad too.
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Country Flier said:
Or this one:

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2305/svg/00365IL34L.svg

???
Click to expand...

DME and/or RADAR required. Nothing solely based on the timer.
 
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